News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

And this gives Putin the opportunity to justify pre-emptive strikes against Ukraine.

You do understand just how wrong this is right? I get Putin might believe this, and some nationalists but no one outside of Russia would. 

[Fanta]

Putin has agreed, in principle, to let a 3rd party evacuate the civilians from the steelworks. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-26/putin-agrees-to-un-involvement-in-mariupol-evacuation/101017502 

[Freeduhdumb]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Pretty amazing that 5G didn't cause covid as well. Prepared to admit you got that wrong yet?

You're delusional friend... I've never discussed 5G being the cause of Covid... lol. You're confusing me with someone else... good luck with your delusions... do you also talk to yourself? Some say that can be therapeutic.. ✌ Time to stop talking now.

[Fester]

14 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It's a real sign of your childish, inability to contribute to the conversation when all you and your friends do is waste your time commenting about spelling errors... I am well aware of the various spellings of places and names... don't take my laziness to go and correct all of my grammar and spelling for you, like its some kind of college book report, as I am an incompetent, unknowing fool. I well aware of the errors... Good Luck with all of your MSM, fact checking "news" and infotainment channels... I was there, I know what is actually going on there. Many of you on this forum are emblematic of just how inept humanity really is... Good Luck humanity, it's amazing we have lasted this long. 

Yes, you have said you were there but your account is so one-sided I just wondered what you were actually doing while you were there? 

[oldschooler]

13 hours ago, Vigo said:

Iraq is different scenario and finished. You simplify what the repressive former despotic regime was like. The reality is that the  regime would have had to be changed at some point and all that the USA did was to expedite that change. Since that change, the region has been relatively peaceful and far less antagonistic to the west. 

The US government aid  is being spent on "America". The USA does not hand out money without conditions and without defined concrete benefits to the USA. Munitions have a shelf life. The USA and other countries regularly donate end of life or near end of life material to other countries. The javelin missiles being sent to the Ukraine are at the end of their lifespan.The helicopters and motor vehicles  are not new. The arms industry in the USA is indirectly subsidized through scheduled purchases and inventory refreshes.  The supplies destined for the Ukraine will be replaced by new supplies purchased from US manufacturers. In some cases the disposal of the equipment was already scheduled. Perhaps you will be as shocked to discover that hundreds of millions of $$ of medications are "donated" by USA every year in the same way because medications are only good for 1-2 years shelf life.

The humanitarian aid the USA is providing ensures that the economies and societies receiving the 4 million+ refugees are not destabilized. Russia had previously dumped large amounts of illegal economic migrants into the EU. Belarus was making a tidy sum doing this.  The US is helping Ukraine because it is good for USA. Russia has been cyber attacking USA for decades and been sabotaging US and western interests too. USA aid to Ukraine delays direct confrontation with Russia.

It is Ukrainians who are dying so that the USA does not have to face Russia. The Russians are not afraid of using nuclear weapons and the USA would be incinerated, as would Russia if that occurred. Unfortunately, alot of non nuclear countries would suffer the consequences. So yes, Americans are benefiting from sacrifice of Ukraine.

America acts primarily in national self interest like all other nations. With Ukraine this coincides with defending an ally. Supplied weapons WORK that’s all that matters. Of course the older stock used first that’s normal practice everywhere.
Ukrainians freely dying to protect their homeland. NATO is not shedding NATO Blood to defend one group of non- NATO ethnic Russians against another whilst directly engaging a nuclear- armed Russia so risking WW3.

[Wanderer]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:56 PM, Freeduhdumb said:

Your a mind controlled robot who has no critical thinking skills, let alone any real-world experience. I lived there, worked there and have many colleagues and friends there... Unlike you, I have real-world on the ground experience. You TV critics have not the slightest idea what is actually going on there... You're a typical Statist... 

So is Putin not a statist.? 

[Thaidup]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, Smithydog said:

Yes something is suss. You are correct. The Russian narrative! Sorry for the length, but this false Russian narrative has gone on for too long.

Let's look at just one aspect you didn't mention. What actually happened in 2014 and the Russian involvement. It seems to back President's Zelensky's concerns as to what is happening and why to his country.

How was Russia involved? Well let us allow a Russian to say why Russia were involved. Also, interesting how little action was taken at the time against a known neo-nazi on their side, considering their current "narrative".

https://khpg.org/en/1552794859

Further, in this 2019 article, one of the Donbas militant Leaders said:

“I want to say that we are rather beholden to the President of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin.  By we I mean those volunteers who arrived in 2014. We owe him that smallest of things – our lives. Everybody who arrived in the first half of 2014 remembers what the situation was like in the second half of July 2014. If not for his policy, if not for his decisions and actions, we would not be here. In the same way as that there would not be Russian Donbas, and the Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics”.

https://khpg.org/en/1565889311

I also don't know what the report you attached has anything to do with the discussions in hand. But here is the equivalent report on Russia for you to peruse which indicates much the same happens there as it does sadly in far too many countries. It is abhorent and needs to be stamped out where ever it occurs.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-trafficking-in-persons-report/russia/

As to Bio -weapons. This article from expert scientists in and outside Russia debunks what was just false propaganda. Sadly, too many just believe the un-qualified military, reporters etc and not the scientists.

https://theintercept.com/2022/03/17/russia-ukraine-bioweapons-misinformation/

The backgrounds of the people involved in Donbass shows their past associations with Crimea and Transnistria, as well as for some, Bosnia, and Chechnya, and in itself tells a story. In particular their links to Igor Girkin, the founder of the Russian National Movement which is described as:

"a political group in favor of "uniting the Russian Federation, Ukraine, Belarus, and other Russian lands into a single all-Russian state and transforming the entire territory of the former USSR into an unconditional zone of Russian influence."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

All of this forms a clear and evidenced rebuttal to a false and unsupported Russian narrative. The longer President Zelensky and the people of Ukraine defy the actions of Russia will be tragic, but may perhaps help delay the same in other areas of Ukraine and in other countries.

Land Robbers should not be rewarded for their illegal acts.

I appreciate you spending the time to lay out an explanation or narrative for what is going on in Ukraine,  My personnel view is what the heck does it have to do with the USA? other than what could be considered a proxy war against Russia? You did however fail to address the Corruption or the sex and human trafficking issue historically reported on about Ukraine, With respect.

[Smithydog]

25 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

I appreciate you spending the time to lay out an explanation or narrative for what is going on in Ukraine,  My personnel view is what the heck does it have to do with the USA? other than what could be considered a proxy war against Russia? You did however fail to address the Corruption or the sex and human trafficking issue historically reported on about Ukraine, With respect.

It has nothing to do with the USA and that is the whole point. The Russian narrative shows it is not about the US, NATO or anything else. It is about one person's deluded ambition, President Putin, and his desire for Russia to be greater in size (i.e. empire building). His ego was hurt when they tossed out his mate Viktor Yanukovych in 2014

As to child trafficking, I commented that anywhere it happens it is abhorrent. But it seems Russia has a problem with getting rid of it as does Ukraine and other countries. Or did you not read the supporting material matching the report you provided?

Now if you want me to deal with corruption, I am happy to outline in equal detail what Putin has allegedly amassed and what his stooge in Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, did as well before he was kicked out of power. For example, this article highlights it quite well for him.

https://transparency.eu/corruption-opulence-and-decadence-in-ukraine/

Obviously nothing of his.....just the "generosity" of others. Corruption, well he seems to have learnt that lesson well from his master, Putin. 

 

 

 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Thaidup said:

other than what could be considered a proxy war against Russia?

To be fair I kinda look at it as a proxy war too, but only in the loosest of definitions. To technically be a US proxy war, America would have needed to convince Ukraine to attack Russia. 

[Thaidup]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

It has nothing to do with the USA and that is the whole point. The Russian narrative shows it is not about the US, NATO or anything else. It is about one person's deluded ambition, President Putin, and his desire for Russia to be greater in size (i.e. empire building). His ego was hurt when they tossed out his mate Viktor Yanukovych in 2014

As to child trafficking, I commented that anywhere it happens it is abhorrent. But it seems Russia has a problem with getting rid of it as does Ukraine and other countries. Or did you not read the supporting material matching the report you provided?

Now if you want me to deal with corruption, I am happy to outline in equal detail what Putin has allegedly amassed and what his stooge in Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, did as well before he was kicked out of power. For example, this article highlights it quite well for him.

https://transparency.eu/corruption-opulence-and-decadence-in-ukraine/

Obviously nothing of his.....just the "generosity" of others. Corruption, well he seems to have learnt that lesson well from his master, Putin. 

My view on this predicament, is simply my view, I do not support Russia nor do I support Ukraine, My point is to remind us all that the only winners in these conflicts are "The military industrial complex" as Eisenhower once warned of.

 

[KRLMRX]

22 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Really?

And this is only in modern times.

Soviet–Afghan War

Georgian Civil War

War in Abkhazia

Transnistria War

East Prigorodny Conflict

Tajikistani Civil War

First Chechen War

War of Dagestan

Second Chechen War

Russo-Georgian War

Insurgency in the North Caucasus

Russo-Ukrainian War

Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War

Central African Republic Civil War

Who is the aggressive party here? You like to paint Czar Putin as some kind of victim. It seems he is being picked on by others but look at that list. How many wars has Czar Putin and his thugs been involved in and continue to be involved in.

Czar Putin is a war mongering despot. But you think NATO is an aggressive party.

 

 

fair. but Russia has not expanded in the last 20 years, unlike NATO.

[Thaidup]

It simply, in my thoughts is incontestable that the whitehouse will not pick up a telephone and talk.Or at least try to put out a display of trying to to talk.

[KRLMRX]

22 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Then get the name right. Should we call some places Leningrad or Stalingrad? 

I did not dispute the formal right of the Government of Ukraine to rename cities. But this is not connected with the historical pronunciation of cities and the opinion of citizens. This is associated with a political situation. "Right," that is, as it was called the founders, and how the inhabitants uttered over the past thousand years - KIEV

Leningrad and Stalingrad are politically motivated city names. do you think that the modern government in Kyiv is somewhat similar to the Bolsheviks? Yes, you are Putin's spy.

[KRLMRX]

22 hours ago, Grumpish said:

Kiev is the Russian language spelling, Kyiv is the Ukrainian language spelling, and it was not Russian until late in the 17th century. Much of what is now western Ukraine was Polish territory until the German invasion in 1939, Germany took the western part of Poland and Russia the eastern half as part of Hitler's non-aggression pact with Stalin.

it is a pity that you will not be able to confirm this, since there is NO WRITTEN SOURCE in which the spelling and pronunciation of Kyiv would be.

[Grumpish]

7 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

it is a pity that you will not be able to confirm this, since there is NO WRITTEN SOURCE in which the spelling and pronunciation of Kyiv would be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KyivNotKiev#:~:text=In June 2019%2C at the,federal government of the United

It is also very common for occupied or colonised countries to change place names to an older or alternate form once the have achieved independence. Their prerogative.

[EdwardV]

34 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

fair. but Russia has not expanded in the last 20 years, unlike NATO.

Horrible comparison. When Russia expands it's to occupy and control an area, whether that's to absorb it into greater Russia or to create a puppet state. Often times this is done violently and against the wishes of that particular area. That's pretty much the opposite of NATO expansion. Independent countries come to NATO, don't give up sovereignty, and do so for protection. Countries can freely leave NATO, Russia not so much.  

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Thaidup said:

My point is to remind us all that the only winners in these conflicts are "The military industrial complex"

I would argue Ukrainians will be the winners (if they successfully fight of Russia of course).

Interesting speech and one not taught enough in school anymore. On one hand Eisenhower talked about the need for a strong military industrial complex and it's ability to protect America. On the other, the warning if it were to get to strong and threaten the country itself. American's have always read too much into it, and more often given it too little credence. That said, unless you think the US military industrial complex somehow convinced Putin to attack Ukraine against his wishes, I don't really see the tie in.   

[Thaidup]

9 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Interesting speech and one not taught enough in school anymore. On one hand Eisenhower talked about the need for a strong military industrial complex and it's ability to protect America. On the other, the warning if it were to get to strong and threaten the country itself. American's have always read too much into it, and more often given it too little credence. That said, unless you think the US military industrial complex somehow convinced Putin to attack Ukraine against his wishes, I don't really see the tie in.   

Just responding to the last paragraph, The tie in is the sales and export of arms, the more conflict the more sales, just my uneducated basic point of view.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

I did not dispute the formal right of the Government of Ukraine to rename cities. But this is not connected with the historical pronunciation of cities and the opinion of citizens. This is associated with a political situation. "Right," that is, as it was called the founders, and how the inhabitants uttered over the past thousand years - KIEV

Leningrad and Stalingrad are politically motivated city names. do you think that the modern government in Kyiv is somewhat similar to the Bolsheviks? Yes, you are Putin's spy.

Oh this is good stuff here. The amount of projection going on is astonishing.

Look the name is Kyiv. Get used to it. I know you want it to be Kiev because thats what it was called while under Russian control but thats not the case any more.

[Noble_Design]

Just in guys: Russia halts gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria

https://www.reuters.com/world/poland-bulgaria-face-russian-gas-cut-ukraine-crisis-escalates-2022-04-26/

[Vigo]

1 hour ago, Thaidup said:

It simply, in my thoughts is incontestable that the whitehouse will not pick up a telephone and talk.Or at least try to put out a display of trying to to talk.

What do you want them to talk about that they already have not? It is Russia that invaded Ukraine.  Ukraine did not meddle in Russia internal affairs.  Ukraine is a sovereign country and the core fact is that Russia has violated that sovereignty. Countries who have remained quiet or not condemned this was should remember that it sets a precedent. Now China can lay claim to parts of India, India can continue its illegal control of Kashmir, Iran can continue to try and take Gulf state land and every petty African  dictator can have an excuse to wage war.  Ukraine people do not wish to be dominated by Russian invader. Simple as that. Ukraine has many faults, but it did not start war and commit war crimes. Russians are completely oblivious to what they are doing. Let this be a lesson to the world that this is what happens in a conflict with Russia. Churchill was right about Russia.

[Thaidup]

14 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Let this be a lesson to the world that this is what happens in a conflict with Russia. Churchill was right about Russia.

You pulled my heartstrings, look at what they did.

 

I may wonder, did Russia send weapons into Iraq? after seeing these images of areas being blown up? or is it because the USA did it it's OK.?

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

You pulled my heartstrings, look at what they did.

Were those civilian buildings?

Oh no thats right they were not because the west as always tries its very best to minimise civilian casualties.

Mistakes happen but you always try to keep them to a minimum.

Does it look like Czar Putin and his thugs are trying to do the same?

Oh right so once again your whataboutery fails. 

[Thaidup]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh no thats right they were not because the west as always tries its very best to minimise civilian casualties.

You sure about that?

[Thaidup]

23 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Were those civilian buildings?

Not one of them was. The bombs and missiles landed only on non civilian buildings. after watching the video I clearly understand how I could have been mistaken, those bloody government buildings just pop up like trees if you drive under the influence