News Forum - Putin sends ‘peacekeeping’ troops to Ukraine after recognising breakaway regions

[oldschooler]

11 hours ago, JohninDublin said:

There is a lot of sense in what you say, but it ignores the principles of democracy. The population of Ukraine is 44 mill. of which about 8 mill are ethnic Russians. That includes Crimea. Why should 8 mill Russians be allowed to detach themselves from Ukraine in order to hand over a huge swathe of the country to Russia against the wishes of the other 36 mill? 

How often are we going to see Russia inventing pretexts of protecting "Russians" as they have done in Moldova, Ukraine and Georgia as an excuse to invade peaceful countries? 

Why ? To avoid present situation & future same situation you describe. Democracy Irrelevant.Ukraine was simply & stupidly “released” in its USSR region form when ethnic & language differences didn’t matter & democracy had never existed. Those differences are critically important when forming new nation states !

Incredible that Russia, who did the forming & releasing, missed that great opportunity to create a pro- Russian (non- NATO)  war-avoiding East Ukraine Russian ethnic / language buffer state !

But Russians then focused on forming their own new Russia and just wanted to release new non-Russian states from collapsed USSR….. Never envisaged ethnic Ukrainians preferring Western alignment ! 

[Alavan]

12 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

it is not true.

Poll: 41% of Ukrainians consider themselves one people with the Russians, 55% do not agree with this

 July 27, 2021 https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-57984025

The question is not “how many procent consider themselves Russian” but…

stay under rhe heel of PutinHow many procent want to live in a free Ukraine with acces to a better life and how many want to 

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Independent Ukraine was very badly conceived and will remain a nightmare without the east / west language split however that is enacted. not “ hawkish” or “ imperialist” just basic sense. first step was Crimea/ Donetsk / Luhansk separations. 

An Unfree Russia was never going to accept a Western - allied whole Free Ukraine right on its border.

I personally believe that were it not for the antics of Putin, NATO would have been almost moribund by now. 

[JohninDublin]

20 minutes ago, Alavan said:

The question is not “how many procent consider themselves Russian” but…

stay under rhe heel of PutinHow many procent want to live in a free Ukraine with acces to a better life and how many want to 

I am wondering how many Russians really want to live under Putin? 

[JohninDublin]

I've just been listening to a commentary on sanctions, and among those seeking exemptions, are Belgium who don't want diamonds to be put on the list, and Italians who don't want luxury goods added. 

Surely if the objective is to target the Oligarchs, then it will be the Oligarchs who will be hit by this. Belgium exports $12.8 BN of diamonds annually, of which about 15% by value goes to Russia. This accounts for 0.5% of all Belgian exports, and it's not as if, you will find any diamond traders in lines at soup-kitchens. I cannot tell you the value of Italian luxury goods sales, but how desperately do Ferrari, Gucci and Armani need these sales. 

In the current circumstances, there is something particularly odious about these wealthy businessmen seeking exemption while the rest of Europe and the US is having to take a hit on the economic problems of the war.

[JohninDublin]

Best news of the day so far: China abstained from supporting Russia in the Security Council.

It's been a while since I've found something good to say about China.

[Poolie]

2 hours ago, KomanderChicknNugget said:

Weird to hear Putin lump America in as an evil Anglo-Saxon nation.  It started that way but today its got a whole lot more Hispanic, African, Asian and (gasp) Russian population.

May be he's talking about who runs the gaffe. The corporations, etc.

[Fester]

55 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

I've just been listening to a commentary on sanctions, and among those seeking exemptions, are Belgium who don't want diamonds to be put on the list, and Italians who don't want luxury goods added. 

Surely if the objective is to target the Oligarchs, then it will be the Oligarchs who will be hit by this. Belgium exports $12.8 BN of diamonds annually, of which about 15% by value goes to Russia. This accounts for 0.5% of all Belgian exports, and it's not as if, you will find any diamond traders in lines at soup-kitchens. I cannot tell you the value of Italian luxury goods sales, but how desperately do Ferrari, Gucci and Armani need these sales. 

In the current circumstances, there is something particularly odious about these wealthy businessmen seeking exemption while the rest of Europe and the US is having to take a hit on the economic problems of the war.

*Frivolous comment removed*

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Faraday
Removed frivolous comment

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Grumpish said:

Not quite - there may be a distinctly British character,  but we Brits really are the mongrels of Europe. Germanic, Gaelic, Celtic, Scandinavian, and French, amongst others over the millennia. It shows in the language,  as well.

*Comment removed*

Edited February 26, 2022 by Faraday
Another frivolous & unnecessary comment removed

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, Alavan said:

The question is not “how many procent consider themselves Russian” but…

stay under rhe heel of PutinHow many procent want to live in a free Ukraine with acces to a better life and how many want to 

the problem is that modern Ukraine is just as corrupt, totalitarian as Russia. Ukraine has been selling its "desire for freedom" to the West for 20 years.

[KRLMRX]

56 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

In the current circumstances, there is something particularly odious about these wealthy businessmen seeking exemption while the rest of Europe and the US is having to take a hit on the economic problems of the war.

welcome to reality.  it's called capitalism.  officials only fulfill the will of capital.

[KRLMRX]

35 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

Best news of the day so far: China abstained from supporting Russia in the Security Council.

It's been a while since I've found something good to say about China.

abstinence is also the absence of accusations against Russia.  It's a common practice in diplomacy when you don't want to condemn, but you can't support either.

[Faraday]

I have removed two frivolous & unnecessary comments.

The topic is of a serious nature & needs to be treated as such.

 

Moderator

[Pinetree]

3 hours ago, Cabra said:

a crime against humanity.

What does that phrase mean exactly?   It was invented by the allies after WW2, and subsequently adopted by that useless, toothless International Criminal Court,  in order to justify the Nuremburg  sentences. It should actually read: a 'crimes against those who won'. Nation States will always, but always, act in their own, narrow National interest, its that simple; there is no 'Court of World opinion', another meaningless phrase spouted by politicians . Add:  'to the victor the spoils ( and the justice)' and that's humanity for you. Humans, the most dangerous and truly dreadful of all animal species.

[Rookiescot]

If this war starts going badly for Putin (and there is a good chance it will in my opinion) his own survival is at risk. Urban warfare is notoriously hard. The Ukrainians are motivated and will fight house to house inflicting heavy casualties on the Russian army. Since around 2016 western armies have been training the Ukrainian army. Man for man they are probably better than the average Russian squaddie. 

The population is now armed. Even if Russia manages to "win" and set up a puppet government the country may be ungovernable due to insurrection. That means a continued large Russian military presence for many years to come with the rebels continually being supplied with western weapons. Weapons which are proving very effective against Russian tanks and APC's.

In either scenario if that toll on the Russian army starts getting too big the troops may start refusing orders. Generals may decide Putin needs to go. 

The oligarchs are now losing money because of Putin. Many of them are very powerful individuals and indeed some are essentially professional criminals (mafia). They might decide Putin needs to go.

In Russia itself protests are taking place against the war. If those increase the people themselves may decide Putin needs to go. Russia is now trying to curtail access to social media (yeah its a democracy) to prevent these protests growing.

In short its starting to look really bad for Putin and his henchmen. Isolated both at home and abroad.

[Cabra]

6 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

What does that phrase mean exactly?

specific crimes committed in the context of a large-scale attack. These crimes include murder. Putin is a murderous megalomaniac. Yes, humans can be vile. Putin is the worse example of that.

[Pinetree]

1 minute ago, Cabra said:

specific crimes committed in the context of a large-scale attack. These crimes include murder. Putin is a murderous megalomaniac. Yes, humans can be vile. Putin is the worse example of that.

Nobody will argue with that assessment of that thug, but let's  at least tell it as it is : its ' a crime against Western democratic interests'. 

[Cabra]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Urban warfare is notoriously hard

True. And a guerilla army difficult to defeat. If anything, we have seen in Afghanistan want a guerilla  army can do. This could be Russia's second afghan war. It's a dreadful scenario for Ukraine whatever happens next

Edited February 26, 2022 by Faraday
Corrected spelling of guerilla not gorilla

[Poolie]

1 minute ago, Cabra said:

True. And a gorilla army difficult to defeat. If anything, we have seen in Afghanistan want a gorilla army can do. This could be Russia's second afghan war. It's a dreadful scenario for Ukraine whatever happens next

Grammar intervention alert.

I think you mean 'guerilla army.'

There's no big hairy things involved at all.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Poolie said:

Grammar intervention alert.

I think you mean 'guerilla army.'

There's no big hairy things involved at all.

I've met some very hairy Russians.

The men are even worse.

[Rookiescot]

Ironically the countries bordering Russia who were reluctant to join NATO or the EU appear to now be clamoring to join.

They look at what Putin has done and think "That could have been us".

  

[Cabra]

1 hour ago, Poolie said:

Grammar intervention alert.

I think you mean 'guerilla army.'

There's no big hairy things involved at all.

I did indeed

[Alavan]

4 hours ago, JohninDublin said:

I've just been listening to a commentary on sanctions, and among those seeking exemptions, are Belgium who don't want diamonds to be put on the list, and Italians who don't want luxury goods added. 

Surely if the objective is to target the Oligarchs, then it will be the Oligarchs who will be hit by this. Belgium exports $12.8 BN of diamonds annually, of which about 15% by value goes to Russia. This accounts for 0.5% of all Belgian exports, and it's not as if, you will find any diamond traders in lines at soup-kitchens. I cannot tell you the value of Italian luxury goods sales, but how desperately do Ferrari, Gucci and Armani need these sales. 

In the current circumstances, there is something particularly odious about these wealthy businessmen seeking exemption while the rest of Europe and the US is having to take a hit on the economic problems of the war.

Belgium is a world largest market for high class diamonds and specialised cutting. Centered around Antwerp. The trade was before mostly in hands of Jews, but today a lot of Indians are in the same business.

must say I haven’t heard of the Belgian gouvernment objecting against an embargo, but diamonds are always a shady business. Lots of tax evasion (largest in Belgium), black money, whatever you can think of. What you want, for the volume of a small Louis Vuiton you got a lot more money in your hands.

[Alavan]

3 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

the problem is that modern Ukraine is just as corrupt, totalitarian as Russia. Ukraine has been selling its "desire for freedom" to the West for 20 years.

But that is their righ, if they want that, not that of Putin. You can just hope they will change and condone it. That is why Zelensky (from jewish descent, not a neo nazi) was elected. If he did a good job, I don’t know
 

[Alavan]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

The oligarchs are now losing money because of Putin. Many of them are very powerful individuals and indeed some are essentially professional criminals (mafia). They might decide Putin needs to go

Seems the oligarchs lost the battle. putin inner circle are now all old KGB’s. Seems there is a word for those Sikivali or something