News Forum - 5 million deaths – 22 months of Covid-19

[Thaiger]

Covid-19 has killed more than 5 million people across the globe, a grim milestone after nearly 20 months of lockdowns, information overload, misinformation and misery. The US has contributed the largest single body count from the coronavirus – 4% of the world’s population but 15% of the total deaths. Covid-19 is now a leading cause of death in the US, along with heart disease and stroke. But even the most dovish of health officials believe that these numbers are just the tip of a deeper iceberg. Amber D’Souza, professor of epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, in […]

The story 5 million deaths – 22 months of Covid-19 as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Faraday]

What was the age distribution, & did they have any chronic illness?

That would keep it more in perspective.

But no, 5 million deaths from Covid, is much more frightening....

[Shade_Wilder]

"To the chagrin to many of the world’s leading health authorities, much of the known science and steps to contain a coronavirus outbreak were either partly ignored, or in some cases, challenged by politicians with no medical training. The lessons of SARS and MERS (both coronaviruses), less than 2 decades distant, were well documented but unheeded. At least those two smaller pandemics gave labs around the world a head start in the development of coronavirus vaccines, making a swift development, testing and deployment of a Covid-19 vaccine possible"

I think this is the most salient paragraph in an all-around interesting article.

A large number of fatalities were caused by lack of trust in society's leaders and the actions of some in sowing doubts about the quality of our experts and vaccines; a lot of this could have been avoided.

What will restore humanity's faith in learned expertise and our leaders? I don't know the answer to that, but I hope that we as a species figure it out soon; this will not be the last epidemic in our lifetimes.

 

[Jason]

The secretive nature of governments and their desire to hold onto power, will ensure that even the evidence of science is put second place to political expediency. I do see changes of government around the world happening. I think back to the end of World War 2. CHurchill being voted out of office in the first general election after the war (a Global Crisis). All peoples, even those under repressive regimes, are rethinking their futures....we live in interesting times.

[TV7]

If it's double, meaning 10.000.000 people, it means that the same amount of deaths per year of malaria and the flu ( before covid) combined. Just look it up. But yeah, malaria isn't a problem because it doesn't affect the western world, and we got used to the flu. Time to accept covid, move on, take our responsibilities with the vaccine, wash hands, isolate five days, etc. They are not even talking about the number of people who died over the last two years because they couldn't get an operation they needed or depression and started to take their own lives.

[Bob20]

3 minutes ago, TV7 said:

If it's double, meaning 10.000.000 people, it means that the same amount of deaths per year of malaria and the flu ( before covid) combined. Just look it up. But yeah, malaria isn't a problem because it doesn't affect the western world, and we got used to the flu. Time to accept covid, move on, take our responsibilities with the vaccine, wash hands, isolate five days, etc. They are not even talking about the number of people who died over the last two years because they couldn't get an operation they needed or depression and started to take their own lives.

You're very late to the party... We discussed all this and debunked it month's ago

It's "only" 5m deaths because of all the lockdowns, masks, distancing, and... vaccines. It would not have been just double but unimaginably worse without all that. So please educate yourself instead of spouting uninformed babble.

Once people that want a vaccine are protected it's a different matter. But we're not there yet and the ones who were lucky to receive their jabs should have some consideration for the ones who are still waiting, instead of being selfish and totally devoid of empathy. The weekend break or holiday they so desperately "need" isn't worth someone else admission to hospital or death.

[Griff1315]

5 million deaths – 22 months of Covid-19

Thanks China you played a blinder.....

[Soidog]

4 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

What will restore humanity's faith in learned expertise and our leaders? I don't know the answer to that, but I hope that we as a species figure it out soon; this will not be the last epidemic in our lifetimes.

I hate to say it @Shade_Wilder, but I think this is the biggest issue in most Western societies. We have “lost faith” and lost respect for anyone in a leadership or position of expertise. While it’s true that many of our leaders haven’t earned the respect, the media see it as their primary role to drag them down and portray them as immoral and untrustworthy. This has created an atmosphere or distrust in ANYTHING anyone in authority or position of knowledge says. Social media simply amplifies this effect many times over. The result is a culture where by a guy sat on his sofa after a day driving a bus, feels they know more about virology than someone like Professor Chris Whitty and can post his disapproval on his social media accounts. 
 

The answer sadly is that a massive cultural reset will be required. The only way this will happen; unless there is massive government intervention, is the destruction of western dominance. I think even the skeptics and conspiracy theorists know this, which is why they see Covid as the establishment tool to “reset” things. 

Many of us on this forum are old enough to recall the worry when a policeman stopped you in the street for doing something wrong. The fear of waiting outside the headmaster office or parents returning from a parents evening at school and the fear of the comments like “wait until your father gets home”. Little or none of that exists today and defiance of everything in authority is encouraged by the media and amplified by social media.  A friend of mine is a primary school teacher in the U.K. and told me a few weeks ago; how when telling a 6 year old to come in to class and sit down, the 6 year old replied “No, you can’t make me. I know my rights”!! 
 

Im sure nations like China look at the West and can see the structure crumbling. I’m also sure they are fully manipulating social media to accelerate the decline. With social media available, they can plant the seed of conspiracy and doubt on any topic they wish and there are plenty of gullible fools with mouths wide open just waiting to swallow it.  

[PBS]

3 hours ago, TV7 said:

If it's double, meaning 10.000.000 people, it means that the same amount of deaths per year of malaria and the flu ( before covid) combined. Just look it up.

You're incorrect - I did look it up:

 WHO estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.  

 

Again from WHO, the estimated number of malaria deaths stood at 409 000 in 2019.

 

[ThomasG]

"14 days" of 22 months to flatten the curve, and collapse the global economy, so that they can have their great reset, digital ID for full control of the peasants. 

 

This nonsense has never been about protecting the public against a "pandemic", it's about protecting the pandemic against a "disease" called freedom. 

 

They are now desperate to coerce everyone to get vaccinated. Because they cannot hide the die off of the double or triple vaccinated, as deaths caused by a new "variant" or "pandemic" in the spring, if the unvaccinated doesn't die. 

[Shade_Wilder]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

I hate to say it @Shade_Wilder, but I think this is the biggest issue in most Western societies. We have “lost faith” and lost respect for anyone in a leadership or position of expertise. While it’s true that many of our leaders haven’t earned the respect, the media see it as their primary role to drag them down and portray them as immoral and untrustworthy. This has created an atmosphere or distrust in ANYTHING anyone in authority or position of knowledge says. Social media simply amplifies this effect many times over. The result is a culture where by a guy sat on his sofa after a day driving a bus, feels they know more about virology than someone like Professor Chris Whitty and can post his disapproval on his social media accounts. 
 

The answer sadly is that a massive cultural reset will be required. The only way this will happen; unless there is massive government intervention, is the destruction of western dominance. I think even the skeptics and conspiracy theorists know this, which is why they see Covid as the establishment tool to “reset” things. 

Many of us on this forum are old enough to recall the worry when a policeman stopped you in the street for doing something wrong. The fear of waiting outside the headmaster office or parents returning from a parents evening at school and the fear of the comments like “wait until your father gets home”. Little or none of that exists today and defiance of everything in authority is encouraged by the media and amplified by social media.  A friend of mine is a primary school teacher in the U.K. and told me a few weeks ago; how when telling a 6 year old to come in to class and sit down, the 6 year old replied “No, you can’t make me. I know my rights”!! 
 

Im sure nations like China look at the West and can see the structure crumbling. I’m also sure they are fully manipulating social media to accelerate the decline. With social media available, they can plant the seed of conspiracy and doubt on any topic they wish and there are plenty of gullible fools with mouths wide open just waiting to swallow it.  

 

Evening Mr Dog

 

We often agree (a true test of another man's intelligence is how much they agree with you), but this time I think you are thinking too narrowly; it is far more complex than simply the media and/or social media. You make a good case for blaming them; it is just I think you need to cast your net much, much wider. 

 

I would need pages and pages and pages to make my case, but it is Sunday evening in the LOS and I have other things to do. So, if you aren't going to go big, then go small.

 

I blame Newt Gingrich.

 

I know that you are politically aware, but just in case... Newt Gingrich was an American politician who was elected to their House of Representatives in the 80s and rose to become Speaker of the House in the 90s. Then, he got tossed for corruption. Nowadays, he is a fat talking head on FOX "news".

 

Back in the 80s, a couple of things occurred simultaneously. The US moved away from having three big networks which dominated television and moved into the cable era with a proliferation of channels. C-Span was born and a wee wrinkle in their charter stated that their camera, when broadcasting from the House or Senate, must focus on whomever had the floor and not pan around (like cameras in Parliament in the UK). Gingrich realized this and used it to give fiery, incendiary speeches in the House in the evenings when no one was there (it looked deep and meaningful, but it was to an empty room), then he and his staff would send clips of the speeches to the cable news channels which were starved of content as they were just being built. Yup, before you knew it, Gingrich was everywhere, and because he was everywhere, people thought he had political power (in politics, if people think you have power, you have power. If people don't think you have power, you don't have power). Further his speeches shattered norms and introduced all the awful language you hear today "Loser", Socialist", "Criminal", "Sleaze", "Scum" etc.; it was the onset of political language designed to tear down rather than build up. And, it works; it is a truism of politics that it is easier to make people be against something than it is to make them be for something.

 

As noted, Gingrich used this technique of 'Attack Politics' to tear down everybody and everything, and rode it into serious political power in the US. Other politicians noticed, copied it, and that is one of the reasons that few people have any respect for leaders today; rule Number 1 in politics is define and tear down your opponent in any contest, and that in turn causes a loss of respect for all leaders. And, because the US has such a powerful global voice, the technique spread and now all over the world leaders are held in less esteem than they used to be.

 

There are many, many, many more reasons that we are where we are in terms of lack of respect for leaders and experts, but as noted above, it is Sunday evening in the LOS.

 

Cheers

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Shade_Wilder
smelling

[gummy]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

I hate to say it @Shade_Wilder, but I think this is the biggest issue in most Western societies. We have “lost faith” and lost respect for anyone in a leadership or position of expertise. While it’s true that many of our leaders haven’t earned the respect, the media see it as their primary role to drag them down and portray them as immoral and untrustworthy. This has created an atmosphere or distrust in ANYTHING anyone in authority or position of knowledge says. Social media simply amplifies this effect many times over. The result is a culture where by a guy sat on his sofa after a day driving a bus, feels they know more about virology than someone like Professor Chris Whitty and can post his disapproval on his social media accounts. 
 

The answer sadly is that a massive cultural reset will be required. The only way this will happen; unless there is massive government intervention, is the destruction of western dominance. I think even the skeptics and conspiracy theorists know this, which is why they see Covid as the establishment tool to “reset” things. 

Many of us on this forum are old enough to recall the worry when a policeman stopped you in the street for doing something wrong. The fear of waiting outside the headmaster office or parents returning from a parents evening at school and the fear of the comments like “wait until your father gets home”. Little or none of that exists today and defiance of everything in authority is encouraged by the media and amplified by social media.  A friend of mine is a primary school teacher in the U.K. and told me a few weeks ago; how when telling a 6 year old to come in to class and sit down, the 6 year old replied “No, you can’t make me. I know my rights”!! 
 

Im sure nations like China look at the West and can see the structure crumbling. I’m also sure they are fully manipulating social media to accelerate the decline. With social media available, they can plant the seed of conspiracy and doubt on any topic they wish and there are plenty of gullible fools with mouths wide open just waiting to swallow it.  

Well summarised and I suspect very near to the true reality.

[Soidog]

24 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

Evening Mr Dog

 

We often agree (a true test of another man's intelligence is how much they agree with you), but this time I think you are thinking too narrowly; it is far more complex than simply the media and/or social media. You make a good case for blaming them; it is just I think you need to cast your net much, much wider. 

 

I would need pages and pages and pages to make my case, but it is Sunday evening in the LOS and I have other things to do. So, if you aren't going to go big, then go small.

 

I blame Newt Gingrich.

 

I know that you are politically aware, but just in case... Newt Gingrich was an American politician who was elected to their House of Representatives in the 80s and rose to become Speaker of the House in the 90s. Then, he got tossed for corruption. Nowadays, he is a fat talking head on FOX "news".

 

Back in the 80s, a couple of things occurred simultaneously. The US moved away from having three big networks which dominated television and moved into the cable era with a proliferation of channels. C-Span was born and a wee wrinkle in their charter stated that their camera, when broadcasting from the House or Senate, must focus on whomever had the floor and not pan around (like cameras in Parliament in the UK). Gingrich realized this and used it to give fiery, incendiary speeches in the House in the evenings when no one was there (it looked deep and meaningful, but it was to an empty room), then he and his staff would send clips of the speeches to the cable news channels which were starved of content as they were just being built. Yup, before you knew it, Gingrich was everywhere, and because he was everywhere, people thought he had political power (in politics, if people think you have power, you have power. If people don't think you have power, you don't have power). Further his speeches shattered norms and introduced all the awful language you hear today "Loser", Socialist", "Criminal", "Sleaze", "Scum" etc.; it was the onset of political language designed to tear down rather than build up. And, it works; it is a truism of politics that it is easier to make people be against something than it is to make them be for something.

 

As noted, Gingrich used this technique of 'Attack Politics' to tear down everybody and everything, and rode it into serious political power in the US. Other politicians noticed, copied it, and that is one of the reasons that few people have any respect for leaders today; rule Number 1 in politics is define and tear down your opponent in any contest, and that in turn causes a loss of respect for all leaders. And, because the US has such a powerful global voice, the technique spread and now all over the world leaders are held in less esteem than they used to be.

 

There are many, many, many more reasons that we are where we are in terms of lack of respect for leaders and experts, but as noted above, it is Sunday evening in the LOS.

 

Cheers

Evening Mr Wilder!
 

I think we are actually in full agreement on this. You highlight  Gingritch in the US using the media (the same lot I blame) for the breakdown. The same could be true in most countries. In the U.K., the proliferation of television channels and 24 hours news meant they had to fill air time with something. In the U.K. I place the blame heavily on Channel 4 who’s programmes like “big brother” and “the only way is Essex” are programs which encourage the breakdown of respect and social behaviour. Many of the “stars” from these programs go on to become rich and famous. They are the new role models for children. 
 

About three years ago I watched a program looking at changes to social attitudes in the U.K. They compared an interview with children aged 12-16 with the same interview from 1999. Back then, many of the kids wanted to be footballers (soccer to you Americans!), but many still wanted to be pilots, engineers, teachers, nurses or musicians. Today, the kids all want to be like Kim Khardashian or some other Social Media “influencer”. Gingritch may have been the problem in the US, but his vehicle for spreading his claptrap was the media. 
 

Enjoy your Sunday evening

[Shade_Wilder]

3 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Evening Mr Wilder!
 

I think we are actually in full agreement on this. You highlight  Gingritch in the US using the media (the same lot I blame) for the breakdown. The same could be true in most countries. In the U.K., the proliferation of television channels and 24 hours news meant they had to fill air time with something. In the U.K. I place the blame heavily on Channel 4 who’s programmes like “big brother” and “the only way is Essex” are programs which encourage the breakdown of respect and social behaviour. Many of the “stars” from these programs go on to become rich and famous. They are the new role models for children. 
 

About three years ago I watched a program looking at changes to social attitudes in the U.K. They compared an interview with children aged 12-16 with the same interview from 1999. Back then, many of the kids wanted to be footballers (soccer to you Americans!), but many still wanted to be pilots, engineers, teachers, nurses or musicians. Today, the kids all want to be like Kim Khardashian or some other Social Media “influencer”. Gingritch may have been the problem in the US, but his vehicle for spreading his claptrap was the media. 
 

Enjoy your Sunday evening

I am not an American, I am a good person.

 

[Donald]

7 hours ago, Faraday said:

What was the age distribution, & did they have any chronic illness?

That would keep it more in perspective.

 deaths from Covid, is much more frightening....

You are absolutely right. Everyone who was diagnosed positive and who died within 4 weeks automatically was considered a Covid death. It is a clear known fact that the big majority of people that died with Covid where either old or had underlying and/or serious health issues. And if we have to talk about the tip of the Iceberg, I think that the amount of serious side effects and deaths resulting from the "vaccine" is far superior then the numbers that reach to become public knowledge.

[gummy]

30 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

I am not an American, I am a good person.

Excellent news that.

[ninja]

7 hours ago, Faraday said:

What was the age distribution, & did they have any chronic illness?

That would keep it more in perspective.

But no, 5 million deaths from Covid, is much more frightening....

thank you for saying the first thing that came to my mind ............

[Soidog]

3 hours ago, Donald said:

You are absolutely right. Everyone who was diagnosed positive and who died within 4 weeks automatically was considered a Covid death. It is a clear known fact that the big majority of people that died with Covid where either old or had underlying and/or serious health issues. And if we have to talk about the tip of the Iceberg, I think that the amount of serious side effects and deaths resulting from the "vaccine" is far superior then the numbers that reach to become public knowledge.

In the U.K. they counted a death by anyone who had tested positive within the last 28 days as a Covid death. That’s certainly not the case everywhere, and in places like India it’s possible many more died of Covid and never recorded as such.
 

When you say the people dying from Covid vaccines as far superior to what’s being reported, what evidence is this based on? If it’s an opinion, what amount do you think it is being under reported? 

[Benroon]

10 hours ago, Faraday said:

What was the age distribution, & did they have any chronic illness?

That would keep it more in perspective.

But no, 5 million deaths from Covid, is much more frightening....

Exactly - an absolutely pointless article - but here's one the anti vaxxers should take note of 

On Friday the UK equalled the highest ever number of Covid cases (I think from a day in March) - scary enough - yet there were 75%, that's SEVENTY FIVE PER CENT, less hospitalisations !

THAT right there is the point of the vaccines !

[Bob20]

3 hours ago, Donald said:

You are absolutely right. Everyone who was diagnosed positive and who died within 4 weeks automatically was considered a Covid death. It is a clear known fact that the big majority of people that died with Covid where either old or had underlying and/or serious health issues. And if we have to talk about the tip of the Iceberg, I think that the amount of serious side effects and deaths resulting from the "vaccine" is far superior then the numbers that reach to become public knowledge.

 

5 minutes ago, Soidog said:

In the U.K. they counted a death by anyone who had tested positive within the last 28 days as a Covid death. That’s certainly not the case everywhere, and in places like India it’s possible many more died of Covid and never recorded as such.
 

When you say the people dying from Covid vaccines as far superior to what’s being reported, what evidence is this based on? If it’s an opinion, what amount do you think it is being under reported? 

Hello Soidog and Donald, just a slight adjustment to your discussion.

Officially a death is counted as Covid related death only if there is a causal relationship between Covid and death within 28 days of a positive test and if there is no period of complete recovery between illness and death.

If someone has an accident and never had any respiratory or other Covid related problems, yet tested positive for Covid, it is not counted as a Covid death.

Yet when someone with stage 4 cancer who might otherwise not survive long, tests positive for Covid and is admitted very frail and passes away because Covid introduces breathing problems on top, it is counted as a Covid death.

Now, there are obvious grey areas, but not everyone who tests positive is by definition counted as a "Covid related death". It may ignore deaths of people who die without having been tested. Conversely, deaths of people who had underlying conditions may lead to over-counting.

Cheers.

[Soidog]

6 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Hello Soidog and Donald, just a slight adjustment to your discussion.

Officially a death is counted as Covid related death only if there is a causal relationship between Covid and death within 28 days of a positive test and if there is no period of complete recovery between illness and death.

If someone has an accident and never had any respiratory or other Covid related problems, yet tested positive for Covid, it is not counted as a Covid death.

Yet when someone with stage 4 cancer who might otherwise not survive long, tests positive for Covid and is admitted very frail and passes away because Covid introduces breathing problems on top, it is counted as a Covid death.

Now, there are obvious grey areas, but not everyone who tests positive is by definition counted as a "Covid related death". It may ignore deaths of people who die without having been tested. Conversely, deaths of people who had underlying conditions may lead to over-counting.

Cheers.

Thanks for the clarification on that @Bob20, it would be good to see the source of that definition in the U.K. of you have it.   I know a number of people, myself included who are often lead to believe that if I have a Covid test now and test positive and then 20 days from now die in a car crash, I’m classed as a Covid death. I knew it wasn’t as bad as that, as I’ve heard many times that it states something like:

Died within 28 days of a positive Covid test and where Covid is mentioned on the death certificate. A subtle but important distinction

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Thanks for the clarification on that @Bob20, it would be good to see the source of that definition in the U.K. of you have it.   I know a number of people, myself included who are often lead to believe that if I have a Covid test now and test positive and then 20 days from now die in a car crash, I’m classed as a Covid death. I knew it wasn’t as bad as that, as I’ve heard many times that it states something like:

Died within 28 days of a positive Covid test and where Covid is mentioned on the death certificate. A subtle but important distinction

The above are WHO international guidelines, however, to make it easy not all countries stick to them. 

For the UK specifically:

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3220

But to compare between countries and being interested in Thailand, we can only compare if criteria are the same.

[Soidog]

8 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

The above are WHO international guidelines, however, to make it easy not all countries stick to them. 

For the UK specifically:

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3220

But to compare between countries and being interested in Thailand, we can only compare if criteria are the same.

Being a bit lazy mate so just skim read this article. The definition of interest I think is the following:

The first definition is death within 28 days of the first covid positive swab date. The second is death of someone with a laboratory confirmed positive covid-19 test who either died within 60 days of the first swab or, if covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate, died more than 60 days after the first swab. PHE will now publish the 28 day figures daily and the 60 day figures weekly.

This is still confusing to me as it states the First definition is death within 28 days of the first Covid positive swab date.  This seems to suggest my worse fear that of I swab positive, get over it and then die in a car crash 20 days later, I’m still a Covid death. Am I reading that right ? 

[Bob20]

12 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Thanks for the clarification on that @Bob20, it would be good to see the source of that definition in the U.K. of you have it.   I know a number of people, myself included who are often lead to believe that if I have a Covid test now and test positive and then 20 days from now die in a car crash, I’m classed as a Covid death. I knew it wasn’t as bad as that, as I’ve heard many times that it states something like:

Died within 28 days of a positive Covid test and where Covid is mentioned on the death certificate. A subtle but important distinction

P.S. 

Who fills out the certificate

When someone dies in a health care facility, the task of determining the cause usually goes to a physician who oversaw the person’s care or the person’s primary care doctor. Coroners and medical examiners make the determination in various other instances, including deaths that are unexpected, violent, or occur at home.

How death causes are recorded

Part I and II of a death certificate ask what caused a death and what other factors contributed to it. If COVID-19 appears among the causes and contributors, CDC guidance counts that as a COVID-19-related death.

That would mean a car accident without Covid-atrributed factors leading to death of a person who tested positive would not be counted as Covid-death in America

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, Soidog said:

Being a bit lazy mate so just skim read this article. The definition of interest I think is the following:

The first definition is death within 28 days of the first covid positive swab date. The second is death of someone with a laboratory confirmed positive covid-19 test who either died within 60 days of the first swab or, if covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate, died more than 60 days after the first swab. PHE will now publish the 28 day figures daily and the 60 day figures weekly.

This is still confusing to me as it states the First definition is death within 28 days of the first Covid positive swab date.  This seems to suggest my worse fear that of I swab positive, get over it and then die in a car crash 20 days later, I’m still a Covid death. Am I reading that right ? 

There has to be a relation between Covid and the death. That gives rise to a grey area. But it would be silly if you're walking along a high-rise and a piano dropped on your head, you'd be counted as a Covid-related death just because you tested positive three weeks earlier. It would also ignore the fact that there has to be a shorter or longer period of uninterrupted illness from the virus.