News Forum - A synopsis of Thailand’s educational system

[Saltire]

14 hours ago, whitesnake said:

Thaiger!! How much of this hornet's nest do you want to uncover here exactly?! 

Over the years many friends here (and in other Asian countries) have all told me similar horror stories. I am not a teacher, despite having a 2 year stint in China in the early 2000's, and while I enjoyed the job immensely, it was very much an ok been there done that.

I take my hat off to all teachers here, I could not do that job in a government or private school, the daily frustrations would go home with me most nights.

I am just glad to be retired and in no need of a job. This is despite the local high school asking me 3 times (with each change of principal) to come and join them. Polite 'no thanks' each time.

I feel incredibly sorry for the local kids, some of whom I know want to learn, and many have parents who want them to have better options. Thailand deserves better, and not just in education.

 

 

 

 

[Jason]

Glad to see Whitesnake the teacher hasn't lost his passion for his craft. I think therein lies the foundation of change. Teachers who are passionate enough to bring about change. Education has to be about equipping students with the "real world" skills to find meaningful work. I see too many who left school at junior (for a myriad of reasons I'm sure). Education is the cornerstone of a country's future. Could swimming and municipal pools be added. Too many Thais drown because they have never had the facilities or teachers to learned to swim. I'm Australian...just saying....  

[palooka]

21 hours ago, whitesnake said:

Last year, my memory stick which contained all my test marking and end of Semester results was taken and I physically witnessed my "Thai" Department Head changing the lower scores to show the pupils passing at a higher rate... adding marks that weren't awarded!! It's like a cancer within the educational hierarchy!

Some critics would say, 'leave it alone. We a working 'guests' in this country!' WORKING GUESTS MY ARSE!! FRAUD IS FRAUD wherever you are!!

Department heads don't get pay increases if the scores are low.

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, palooka said:

Department heads don't get pay increases if the scores are low.

Yep.

No integrity or moral compass whatsoever.

[Vince]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:49 AM, Shade_Wilder said:

This "synopsis" is quite deceptive; the key phrase, coming in at the last paragraph is this: 

 

"...enrolling them in a public school in Thailand certainly is beneficial for learning the language, making friends and learning the culture."

 

In other words, your children really won't learn much/anything except the Thai language and you can do that in a myriad of alternate ways. Yes, your kids will be nice, fluent Thai speakers who cower at authority, repeat useless slogans and lack the critical-thinking skills required to have a decent future in the twenty-first century.

 

The Thai educational system is such a disaster that mere "Reform" won't actually cut it; the entire system needs to be bombed (metaphorically speaking) to rubble and re-made. Look at the Ministry of Education's own stats; a majority high school grads fail the Ministry's own standard tests in 7 out of 8 subjects, the only one where a bare majority actually pass is in Thai language.

 

The headquarters of the Education Ministry in Bangkok should be razed to the ground and everyone who works in that building fired. As a start. And, that is 'Fired with extreme prejudice'.

 

Every provincial office of the Ministry of Education should have 80% of its staff fired. As a start. And, that is 'Fired with extreme prejudice'.

 

Every school principal should be notified that if his students don't achieve a more than 50% pass rate on national exams, he will be fired. Hand-in hand with the principals' head being on the proverbial block, he should also have some power to hire/fire teachers, to discipline teachers, and some leeway on how the school is run.

 

The steps described above are a beginning, not an end. Thais don't generally want 'Western' experts telling them how to do things (fine), but they could easily hire South Korean or Singaporean or other experts to help re-fashion things. But, and this is the key element, radical change is required.

 

Most Nations' Educational systems would benefit from reforms; Thailand's are waaaaaaaay beyond that.

 

BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

 

It is the only way to end up with something tolerable.

 

Your ideas all involve draconian punishment and complain about "cowering to authority" - that's what firing power freely weilded does. 

People with job security don't cower. Yet you want to get rid of it. Ok. 

I would suggest ideas on incentivising positive outcomes might work. Do teachers get bonuses based on pass rates? Are they free to try new things? Are they well trained? 

 

[nobusinessofurs]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:24 PM, whitesnake said:

Last year, my memory stick which contained all my test marking and end of Semester results was taken and I physically witnessed my "Thai" Department Head changing the lower scores to show the pupils passing at a higher rate... adding marks that weren't awarded!! It's like a cancer within the educational hierarchy!

Some critics would say, 'leave it alone. We a working 'guests' in this country!' WORKING GUESTS MY ARSE!! FRAUD IS FRAUD wherever you are!!

I was required to post a minumin score that allowed the student to advance to next level.

[Vince]

2 hours ago, nobusinessofurs said:

I was required to post a minumin score that allowed the student to advance to next level.

So-called "social promotion" exists in the United States. Students who fail a grade are kept with their age cohort. How is this different? 

No scores are changed, they are simply disregarded :-) 

[Vince]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:21 PM, JamesR said:

What sort of Western person would go to live in Thailand if they have young kids?

A selfish one maybe. 

Even if the kids go to private schools the quality of education would not be as good as standard free education back in their own countries.

So they will be able to learn the Thai culture and speak the language, tens of millions of school children can speak fluent Thai but that will not help them get on in the future re money/jobs etc. 

In the United States a free education can be had in many schools filled with gangs, drugs, violence, and the occasional school shooting. 

How does Thailand compare on those fronts? 

[nobusinessofurs]

2 hours ago, Vince said:

So-called "social promotion" exists in the United States. Students who fail a grade are kept with their age cohort. How is this different? 

No scores are changed, they are simply disregarded :-) 

Scores here are changed. It has nothing to do with keeping same ages together, but everything to do with projecting an higher rate of grads.

[Vince]

3 hours ago, nobusinessofurs said:

Scores here are changed. It has nothing to do with keeping same ages together, but everything to do with projecting an higher rate of grads.

Ok, but social promotion "graduates" people. I know from personal experience because I failed in school and yet I was "promoted" forward. 

In graduate schools it's called "grade inflation" - everyone gets an A! 

These aren't unique problems - poor grading methods, overworked students, dodgy school admins, exist in every school system around the world. 

I read time and again of people reporting "Thai problems" that are simply problems people notice in Thailand, yet ignore everywhere else. 

Do you want me to find news stories of similar actions in Britain, the US, or other non-Thai countries? 

[nobusinessofurs]

12 minutes ago, Vince said:

Ok, but social promotion "graduates" people. I know from personal experience because I failed in school and yet I was "promoted" forward. 

In graduate schools it's called "grade inflation" - everyone gets an A! 

These aren't unique problems - poor grading methods, overworked students, dodgy school admins, exist in every school system around the world. 

I read time and again of people reporting "Thai problems" that are simply problems people notice in Thailand, yet ignore everywhere else. 

Do you want me to find news stories of similar actions in Britain, the US, or other non-Thai countries? 

I'm fully aware of grade inflation. I hold a MBA myself. I'm speaking of thai students that refuse to participate in any and all school assignments whose actual grade would be a 0. But the government schools require the teachers to change grades to reflect the minimum to pass on. I'm not aware of any such thing happening in my home state of which I and my children attended. Maybe in more liberal run states possibly, but you can bet in my state if your grade was a zero your report card showed that and you repeated that year of school. Maybe only advancing though summer school when possible.

It seems as if you only want to pick a fight with your childish remark of asking do I want you to show me.

[Vince]

4 minutes ago, nobusinessofurs said:

I'm fully aware of grade inflation. I hold a MBA myself. I'm speaking of thai students that refuse to participate in any and all school assignments whose actual grade would be a 0. But the government schools require the teachers to change grades to reflect the minimum to pass on. I'm not aware of any such thing happening in my home state of which I and my children attended. Maybe in more liberal run states possibly, but you can bet in my state if your grade was a zero your report card showed that and you repeated that year of school. Maybe only advancing though summer school when possible.

It seems as if you only want to pick a fight with your childish remark of asking do I want you to show me.

Yah, I'm personally familiar with grade inflation too. 

So you object to the exact way this is done, not it's effects or actual outcome.

So you prefer western style 'corruption' over Thai style. Understood. You want the sausage making hidden from your eyes. 

Lol, who is calling who childish? 

I'm "picking a fight", sure, because you are implying this is a "Thai education problem" - which is racist by the way - when it's an education problem not unique to Thailand. I offered to show you proof and you declined - I'll accept that as agreement that it's obviously true this is a common problem everywhere. 

And my grades reflect I failed. I "graduated" anyway. You can call that liberal state, if ya want. Doesn't change anything. 

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Vince said:

So-called "social promotion" exists in the United States. Students who fail a grade are kept with their age cohort. How is this different? 

No scores are changed, they are simply disregarded :-) 

Yet, no one is screaming about that. 

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, Vince said:

Yah, I'm personally familiar with grade inflation too. 

So you object to the exact way this is done, not it's effects or actual outcome.

So you prefer western style 'corruption' over Thai style. Understood. You want the sausage making hidden from your eyes. 

Lol, who is calling who childish? 

I'm "picking a fight", sure, because you are implying this is a "Thai education problem" - which is racist by the way - when it's an education problem not unique to Thailand. I offered to show you proof and you declined - I'll accept that as agreement that it's obviously true this is a common problem everywhere. 

And my grades reflect I failed. I "graduated" anyway. You can call that liberal state, if ya want. Doesn't change anything. 

Well constructed critique, Vince. 

You'll be finding that many don't want to get it, even when contradictions are laid out for 'em. 

Always the "inferior" cultures, never us.

[El_Madrigal]

It's so sad, asking the kids to make up a simple story and have 5 from 30 of them actually use imagination and creativity... 15 of 30 just gave up, and the rest are one dimensional thinkers. However, when they get a test on paper, grammar rules and stuff from the book, different story. For me, it's sad more than anything else...

[Vince]

3 hours ago, El_Madrigal said:

It's so sad, asking the kids to make up a simple story and have 5 from 30 of them actually use imagination and creativity... 15 of 30 just gave up, and the rest are one dimensional thinkers. However, when they get a test on paper, grammar rules and stuff from the book, different story. For me, it's sad more than anything else...

That's not how education works, nor is it how to teach or encourage creativity. 

If you want a response you prime it with examples. If the response isn't forth coming you can prime it with fragments. So instead of "a story" they can describe some action. A string of descriptions can make up a narrative if prompted. 

A example of this method is used by Socrates in his dialogues - although his explanation is totally in incorrect (he ascribed it to a priori knowledge, it was in fact verbal prompting). 

Once taught narrative structures deliberately prompt and reward variable responses ("creativity"). 

You will soon have children who can both tell stories and make them up creatively. Guaranteed. 

 

[Vince]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:28 PM, JamesR said:

It is very relevant as many Thais choose to send their kids overseas to study, that is related to what Thais who have the choice think about their own education system.

If what is being said offends another person in anyway then they should not claim someone is going off the rails just because of that. Nothing said has been offensive,  but it is fact as far as I can see. 

The choice of countries for education may have to do with perceptions of prestige - a foreign education, even if inferior - might have more prestige to a better local one. 

Education is often about "connections" and a British education will more likely get you British connections - or understand how they work and are made. 

Parents may want to maximize economic success and opportunities for their kids - that is NOT the same thing as "a quality education" or "the best education" unless those terms are used merely as euphemisms for "the most expensive and prestigious education". 

 

[Marc26]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:28 PM, JamesR said:

It is very relevant as many Thais choose to send their kids overseas to study, that is related to what Thais who have the choice think about their own education system.

If what is being said offends another person in anyway then they should not claim someone is going off the rails just because of that. Nothing said has been offensive,  but it is fact as far as I can see. 

I don't disagree 

 

But I actually think my wife was the reverse of this

 

We know so many Thais here in Vancouver whose Thai degree is basically worthless 

I know of 1 Thai acquaintance that has gotten a proper job but they had relevant work experience in Thailand before coming to Canada 

 

So I wanted my stepson to go to University here

He wanted to go in Bangkok, and I get that 

 

But I lost that battle

And don't think my wife fought enough on my side simply because I think she liked the idea of her son going to Thamassat, a school she could never dream of going to herself

Whereas University of British Columbia just wasn't "her dream" for him

 

That's not speaking too well of my wife, but I do think it was a big mistake 

[JamesR]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:29 AM, Vince said:

In the United States a free education can be had in many schools filled with gangs, drugs, violence, and the occasional school shooting. 

How does Thailand compare on those fronts? 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 7:29 AM, Vince said:

In the United States a free education can be had in many schools filled with gangs, drugs, violence, and the occasional school shooting. 

How does Thailand compare on those fronts? 

I have noticed seven of the top universities in the world are in the USA, they did send a few men to the moon and there are far more advanced than Thailand in all technologies and commerce, their eductions is much better.

The other three top universities are in the UK, I have two sons who are half Thai, they went to private schools in the UK, then to university and are now in top jobs.

Farangs sending kids to school is selfish, I know many Thais who sent their kids to school in the UK.

 

[JamesR]

14 hours ago, Marc26 said:

I don't disagree 

But I actually think my wife was the reverse of this

We know so many Thais here in Vancouver whose Thai degree is basically worthless 

I know of 1 Thai acquaintance that has gotten a proper job but they had relevant work experience in Thailand before coming to Canada 

So I wanted my stepson to go to University here

He wanted to go in Bangkok, and I get that 

But I lost that battle

And don't think my wife fought enough on my side simply because I think she liked the idea of her son going to Thamassat, a school she could never dream of going to herself

Whereas University of British Columbia just wasn't "her dream" for him

That's not speaking too well of my wife, but I do think it was a big mistake 

My Thai wife went to university in BKK and then to London to do a masters degree which is where I met her.

Her Thai degree would not have got her very far in the UK or Thailand unless in Thailand nepotism was involved. 

[nobusinessofurs]

21 hours ago, Rain said:

Well constructed critique, Vince. 

You'll be finding that many don't want to get it, even when contradictions are laid out for 'em. 

Always the "inferior" cultures, never us.

My comments were regarding Thai school systems. I never interjected anything about American School Systems which are a failure due to Democrats own doing. My whole point was regarding grades being given HERE meaning my current domicile of Thailand that he blatantly denied. Vince chose to act like a know all with intention to prove me wrong, asses such as him " I assume it id's with the male species" are the very reason I left the states.....overbearing, self rightess ☆ricks. Maybe yourself fits into the same description,  since birds of a feather flock together.

[Poolie]

4 minutes ago, nobusinessofurs said:

My comments were regarding Thai school systems. I never interjected anything about American School Systems which are a failure due to Democrats own doing. My whole point was regarding grades being given HERE meaning my current domicile of Thailand that he blatantly denied. Vince chose to act like a know all with intention to prove me wrong, asses such as him " I assume it id's with the male species" are the very reason I left the states.....overbearing, self rightess ☆ricks. Maybe yourself fits into the same description,  since birds of a feather flock together.

That's quite rude.

[JamesR]

22 hours ago, Vince said:

Ok, but social promotion "graduates" people. I know from personal experience because I failed in school and yet I was "promoted" forward. 

In graduate schools it's called "grade inflation" - everyone gets an A! 

These aren't unique problems - poor grading methods, overworked students, dodgy school admins, exist in every school system around the world. 

I read time and again of people reporting "Thai problems" that are simply problems people notice in Thailand, yet ignore everywhere else. 

Do you want me to find news stories of similar actions in Britain, the US, or other non-Thai countries? 

Well in Britain or should I say England as we have separate rules, we don't have graduate school, we do not pass exams to go into the next year.

When we graduate it is from university. 

We take 'A levels' in hight school, they are marked partly on coursework but mainly marked by a pool of exam markers not connected to any school, the student is not know to them, the grades are decided on a national level.

Seeing as we have some of the best universities in the world I think the system works well here.

I worked in the USA i n 1995 for a year at AT&T, in order to get my visa I had to have my qualifications compared to degree standards of the USA, this was done at the American Embassy in London.

My HND diploma was equivalent to a BS.c in the USA and my BSc. from the UK was equivalent to a masters level degree (MS.c) in the USA.

 

[nobusinessofurs]

5 minutes ago, Poolie said:

That's quite rude.

If the shoe fits

[JamesR]

22 hours ago, Vince said:

Yah, I'm personally familiar with grade inflation too. 

So you object to the exact way this is done, not it's effects or actual outcome.

So you prefer western style 'corruption' over Thai style. Understood. You want the sausage making hidden from your eyes. 

Lol, who is calling who childish? 

I'm "picking a fight", sure, because you are implying this is a "Thai education problem" - which is racist by the way - when it's an education problem not unique to Thailand. I offered to show you proof and you declined - I'll accept that as agreement that it's obviously true this is a common problem everywhere. 

And my grades reflect I failed. I "graduated" anyway. You can call that liberal state, if ya want. Doesn't change anything. 

Yes, the education system in some states in the USA is poor.

But that does not mean it happens in every country in the world.