News Forum - Court rules for Health Ministry, calls dual pricing beneficial

[Stonker]

12 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Now please, no more PM’s to me from this guy.

You have never had a PM from me. 

Please don't lie about this, at least.

[King Cotton]

4 minutes ago, whitesnake said:

Anutin!!!! YOU MAKE ME WANT TO PUKE!!

Hear, hear!

With him at the helm of Thailand's health provision, it's a pretty sad prospect for the 70 million souls that he's somehow been put in control of.

[DiJoDavO]

2 hours ago, Yinn said:

Erwin Buse come to Thailand not need the visa. 
Impossible for Thai go his country without visa, impossible for many Thai go to his country unless marry farang. 
and if go there Thai must pay more. Sure. 
 

Now cry discrimination? 
pfffft 
Will Erwin now take his country court for discrimination Thai people? 
He just not pay for his traetment. Cheap Charlie.

I also wonder why that is. They definitely should make it more easy for anyone going anywhere. I'm all for that. Trying to take my wife, when she was my gf, to my country, was so difficult, we didn't even bother. I think it's almost easier for me to get into North Korea. 

The last bit I've to disagree. I guess he paid, and those few THB didn't matter much, other than the idea behind it. His part was just a bit (?) but in certain cases the price will skyrocket, which can be difficult to afford for certain people. 

Having lived here for enough years to be called a local, then you should be treated as a local. 

As @Stonker mentioned, we pay less tax, but I wouldn't mind to pay just the same tax as Thai people. As long as everything is just equal. Don't use this thing to enforce standard dual pricing.

I see in your other posts though, that you say abroad they do this too. I'm not familiar with that. But if it is true, they should make it more equal too. Not make Thailand the same as them. 

Ok, people who just got into the country, they can't benefit of course. But people who live here already for 5+, 10+> years, should be able to be treated more equally when it comes to rules like these. I'm talking about people who show their future is Thailand. People with a Thai wife/husband, children etc. 

[DiJoDavO]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

There is no discrimination in Thailand...only Thai price and Farang price...

Sounds like the guy who got caught on a hit and run, who said he just hit someone and drove away

[Benroon]

Shockingly poor choice of words - discrimination and economically beneficial are mutually exclusive things. He actually confirms it IS discrimination with that statement.

Having said that anyone who can't sleep at night because they paid 50 baht extra to get into a national park need to evaluate their lifestyles ! It's worth no more than a mild tut !

[Benroon]

3 hours ago, LoongFred said:

In the US we don't have dual pricing policy, but the list price is very high and usually doesn't apply. If you have no way to pay you get off not paying. If you have insurance there are heafty discounts. If a Thai goes to the US without insurance they pay through the roof. 

The prices in Thailand are quite reasonable even falang price. I guess it's hard for those who get tax payer health coverage to realize that someone has to pay. Why should Thais have to pay for foreigners who choose to live here without insurance? I think these are leeches on society. 

Its all part of the western sense of entitlement because they come from, what they perceive, as the superior west. There are thousands of them here. Once that deluded sense of entitlement dissipates the furore will calm down.

The only problem I can see here is they issued a statement from a complete buffoon who has no sense of damage limitation ! 

[Marc26]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

The minimum salary required to qualify for a work permit is 50,000 baht per month for a westerner (less for some Asian and a few other countries) so a farang CAN'T "just make an average salary" unless they're working illegally.

Not "ridiculous" but a statutory minimum

I don't think people realize how similar Thailand's immigration requirements are similar to a lot of their own countries

 

I live in Canada on a work permit

Same as Thailand, there is a minimum amount my firm has to pay a foreign worker.

 

Also, my firm has to prove that a Canadian can't do my job. They literally have to advertise my job for a month and prove to HR Canada they can't fill my job with a local

[Stonker]

35 minutes ago, Soidog said:

@Stonker  talking nonsense and conflating issues as always. The 150% is for people who chose to travel or who seek medical treatment for things other than emergencies. This seems perfectly reasonable to me as I have said in numerous other posts. If you are a foreigner and need hospital treatment as a matter of urgency or need to visit a GP, those services are Free. As in NO charge. The attached is from a government website and explains this. For convenience I have also attached a couple of pictures showing the highlighted comment.
 

Furthermore, you will also see that there is a long list of people who are exempt from any costs. 

I've said repeatedly, clearly, and consistently that A&E treatment in the UK is free for all, including visitors.

I've given several links confirming this, and it's also spelt out in the link I gave which you quoted.

Please don't try to pretend that I've said anything different in any way, as that's very obviously untrue.

This case is about a man who wanted treatment for prostate cancer at the same price as Thais even though he is neither a resident nor a taxpayer.  Nothing remotely to do with A&E treatment, obviously, so equally obviously the only "conflating" here is by you.

40 minutes ago, Soidog said:

You make a whole series of equally ridiculous claims relating to long stay visitors, retirees and migrants to the U.K.  Once again, you know perfectly well that the U.K. is a multicultural, multiethnic society that welcomes people from around the world to educate, work, marry and live in the country. They do this with a progressive attitude irrespective of wealth, gender or colour. While it may no longer be an open door to EU citizens, to claim otherwise is a clear distortion of the truth on the ground.

If you're referring to my contradicting what you wrote elsewhere, I supported every one of my "claims" with a direct link to a Gov.UK or NHSEngland website which very clearly confirmed everything I said, contradicting you, and the "hostile environment" policy for immigrants to the UK  is / was public policy (that link's to the House of Lords, so hardly "ridiculous") as is a very similar court case in the UK over NHS changes to charges.

If you're referring to what you quoted me saying, there are two direct  links to two NHS sites in the quote which confirm what I wrote, so unless they're somehow wrong about their own charges then they can hardly be "ridiculous claims".

 

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

To draw a comparison is misrepresentation bordering on lies.  

 

Well the comparison is based on official policy, confirmed by direct links to GovUK sites, including where you quoted me, on literally every point I made contradicting you, so the choice of who's telling "lies" is either to believe GovUK and NHSE on UK and NHSE regulations and policy or you.

I think I'll go for GovUK and NHSE.

46 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I don’t know why you wish to run the U.K. down as I suspect you are a U.K. citizen?

I "run down" those who deserve it, without fear, favour or bias. I'm British and was born and raised British, and worked for Britain most of my working life, but that doesn't mean that I blindly support everything the UK does.

I find it amusing, if bizarre, that a Thai supporting Thailand and upholding Thai laws is considered  an "arrogant xenophobic ahole" by some here, while if I don't do the same for the UK you think I'm some sort of bitter traitor. Hardly objective or balanced.

55 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Perhaps you are upset if you no longer get your annual pension increases because you decided to trade in your residency in one of the finest countries in the world and now need to convince yourself of your actions being correct.

I'm not "upset" in the slightest, and as I'm a few years off being eligible for a state pension I've never got any pension increases to be "upset" about losing.   FWIW I was well aware of the loss of pension increases when I came here nearly thirty years ago, but as I would have had to live to well over 110 to make it worthwhile continuing with NI contributions and to get the full state pension it was simple maths.

... and I didn't  "trade in [my] residency", as although I was quite happy to be resident in the UK it wasn't my decision but was one made by HMRC based on where I live, nothing more, which I never asked for.

You may be worried about your "annual pension increases" to the derisory UK state pension, but please don't assume everyone is in your position. I already receive a rather more generous UK government pension, which is index linked, as I have done for nearly three decades, so any increases to the state pension would be barely worth having.

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

I would urge others to read the attached link to see the reality of the situation in the U.K.  rather than the nonsense Posted by Stonker. It’s simply fake news and, misrepresentation and frustrated lies.

Well, as your attached link only talks about A&E treatment, nothing else, and (as above) I've said repeatedly that A&E treatment is free in the UK and it says that in the links I gave that you quoted, it's hard to know how anything I've said can be "nonsense ... fake news and, misrepresentation and frustrated lies" when the many links I've given to GovUK and NHSE sites confirm exactly what I've said.

If you genuinely think so, then please quote any (in full, in context) and say what exactly why they're ""nonsense ... fake news and, misrepresentation and frustrated lies".   Given that everything I've said is directly supported by GovUK and NHSE, I look forward to it - although I know it'll never happen and is just rather tedious bluster and hot air.

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Put in basic terms, If you come here on holiday or while being educated here and get knocked off your motorbike or get attacked in the street, you will be taken to hospital, get whatever treatment you need and not be charged. Equally, if you are working here and fall ill, go to your local GP (doctor) and you will be treated free of charge. Have a major problem that doesn’t need immediate treatment and do as many do. Pretend to be seriously sick and go to A&E You will be treated free of charge. The only people who get charged are those rich Arabs and wealthy foreigners  who prefer to come to the U.K. for their treatment and are happy to pay the surcharge. Just as I would in Thailand. The suggestion that some old person who is not a resident falling sick and not getting treatment because they can’t afford it is an affront to the dedicated workers in the NHS!

Sadly anyone who follows your advice and thinks that if they "Pretend to be seriously sick and go to A&E You will be treated free of charge" and that this would have applied to Erwin Buse, and that "The only people who get charged are those rich Arabs and wealthy foreigners  who prefer to come to the U.K. for their treatment and are happy to pay the surcharge" is likely to have a very nasty shock - as some have found out, to their cost.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

The last bit I've to disagree. I guess he paid, and those few THB didn't matter much, other than the idea behind it. His part was just a bit (?) but in certain cases the price will skyrocket, which can be difficult to afford for certain people. 

It was 850 baht per treatment / visit.  That was what the case was about, so clearly that did "matter much", at least to him.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

Having lived here for enough years to be called a local, then you should be treated as a local.

But you're not a "local"!

You may like to be, but you're not. 

Around here, even if someone comes from a different village let alone a different province they're not a "local", let alone a different province or country, and that's the same all over the world except in some big khaki cities so what makes you so special?

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

As @Stonker mentioned, we pay less tax, but I wouldn't mind to pay just the same tax as Thai people. As long as everything is just equal.

You can - just get a work permit and a job, the you'll be charged the same tax and you'll go from being Tier 4 to being Tier 3.

You're complaining about and want something you can already have!

[Soidog]

25 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Its all part of the western sense of entitlement because they come from, what they perceive, as the superior west. There are thousands of them here. Once that deluded sense of entitlement dissipates the furore will calm down.

The only problem I can see here is they issued a statement from a complete buffoon who has no sense of damage limitation ! 

Not about entitlement @Benroon. It’s about fairness. I’m perfectly happy to have 100% reciprocal arrangements across the world. If I pay more to go in to a museum in Thailand then so should they in the U.K.  The same goes for owning business outright, land or houses also. I don’t want entitlement I want fairness. It’s far easier of course for the Thais to establish a discriminatory system as they are more or less ethnically pure. If you don’t have Black hair, and look Thai, then there’s a damn good chance you are not Thai. Try applying that in open societies in the West and see how long it takes for the police to be called.  Imagine asking an Asian looking person if they are British. Or a black guy if he’s British. All hell would break out. It’s too difficult and also grossly unfair. 
 

I have no problem people paying more for elective surgery. It’s your choice etc. But for emergency treatment it’s just plain wrong. The suggestion about paying taxes also falls down given a significant number of Thais pay no more or less tax than I pay in Thailand. They need to wake up and move in to the modern world or be forever caught in the middle income trap. That of course is exactly what the genuinely wealthy Thais (many who own foreign businesses and houses abroad) actually want. They want this “Them and us” culture to persist. It’s a great way of filling their business with local cheap Labour. The poor and uneducated Thais don’t see it and they are called to rally around the flag. It’s a fallacy that ensures they remain under the thumb.  

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

But, this latest message is a bit strange imo. 

Example: "Then you shouldn't have taken the treatment" 

What am I going to do instead, die without treatment? 

If you can't pay for it, go home.

Why should Thailand (and foreign taxpayers)  take responsibility for subsidising your treatment, as Erwin Buse was demanding they subsidise his prostate cancer treatment?

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

but you're not Thai and you haven't paid your taxes.

Correct - I'm not Thai and I haven't paid my taxes and I'm not asking or expecting anything for free!

2 hours ago, DiJoDavO said:

I do pay my taxes, and if a normal cost for a treatment isn't included in this, then what is? Also, why do I even pay taxes when almost everything I do, is more expensive than when for example my wife does it? For example on a holiday, it's just awkward, not only for me, but for the person asking more from me than my wife too. It takes the fun out of everything instantly. Not because of the price (I can't complain about what I have) but the idea

Then you not only get Tier 3 charges, but if your working for the government you get healthcare free under the civil servuice welfare system, as do your family, and if you're employed privately you're covered under the Social Security system - also free.

What are you complaining about???

2 hours ago, DiJoDavO said:

Maybe if acceptance and respect are shown instantly and from that point look whether you still accept one or not, instead of earning it, life would change a bit for the better for everyone. 

Sorry, I either don't understand your point or I'm lost by it.  Are you suggesting we should accept and respect anyone "instantly", regardless of who or what they are? Seriously?

[Stonker]

51 minutes ago, Benroon said:

The only problem I can see here is they issued a statement from a complete buffoon who has no sense of damage limitation ! 

IF the statement is what he actually said.  Given that the only source is Coconuts Bangkok, and there are no reports of this minor case anywhere else, while the report of the verdict may be correct anything else may be rather more doubtful.

[Benroon]

36 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Not about entitlement @Benroon. It’s about fairness. I’m perfectly happy to have 100% reciprocal arrangements across the world. If I pay more to go in to a museum in Thailand then so should they in the U.K.  The same goes for owning business outright, land or houses also. I don’t want entitlement I want fairness. It’s far easier of course for the Thais to establish a discriminatory system as they are more or less ethnically pure. If you don’t have Black hair, and look Thai, then there’s a damn good chance you are not Thai. Try applying that in open societies in the West and see how long it takes for the police to be called.  Imagine asking an Asian looking person if they are British. Or a black guy if he’s British. All hell would break out. It’s too difficult and also grossly unfair. 
 

I have no problem people paying more for elective surgery. It’s your choice etc. But for emergency treatment it’s just plain wrong. The suggestion about paying taxes also falls down given a significant number of Thais pay no more or less tax than I pay in Thailand. They need to wake up and move in to the modern world or be forever caught in the middle income trap. That of course is exactly what the genuinely wealthy Thais (many who own foreign businesses and houses abroad) actually want. They want this “Them and us” culture to persist. It’s a great way of filling their business with local cheap Labour. The poor and uneducated Thais don’t see it and they are called to rally around the flag. It’s a fallacy that ensures they remain under the thumb.  

I hear what you're saying but at the end of the day it does come down to economics. Your argument only stands, IMO, if you're on an even playing field but the Thai GDP is half a trillion a year, the UK 3 trillion, the US 20 trillion - so the ability of the thais to absorb the same benefits afforded to you by other nations is diminished. IMO you're comparing apples with oranges.

[Stonker]

53 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Not about entitlement @Benroon. It’s about fairness. I’m perfectly happy to have 100% reciprocal arrangements across the world. If I pay more to go in to a museum in Thailand then so should they in the U.K.  The same goes for owning business outright, land or houses also. I don’t want entitlement I want fairness.

You're in la-la land.

Where are the "reciprocal arrangements" for Thais to get visas on arrival in the UK, or for a Thai to get permanent residency in the UK after only 3 years instead of five, as a Brit can here?

Or for someone on a Family Visa in the UK to transfer free of charge to a Bereavement Visa if their spouse dies, instead of having to pay another 110,000 baht for a Bereavement Visa, plus another 110,000 baht for each dependant on the Family Visa, which had already cost them 70,000 baht each, as they can transfer from a marriage Extension to a Retirement Extension automatically here free?

Where are the "reciprocal arrangements" there?

You don't want "fairness", you just want to have what everyone else has but without sharing what you have - the old "what's yours is ours, but what's mine is mine".

53 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I have no problem people paying more for elective surgery. It’s your choice etc. But for emergency treatment it’s just plain wrong.

But this case isn't about "emergency treatment", however much you may want it to be. Erwin Buse was being treated for prostate cancer - he could have got on a plane and flown home but he chose not to.

This WAS "elective".

53 minutes ago, Soidog said:

The suggestion about paying taxes also falls down given a significant number of Thais pay no more or less tax than I pay in Thailand.

No, if you pay taxes here you only pay Tier 3 charges, which are subsidised, not Tier 4 - but Erwin Buse didn't pay taxes and he wanted to pay Tier 1.

You're simply ignoring what the case was about, or you just want to have a general unconnected rant.

 

[Soidog]

4 minutes ago, Benroon said:

I hear what you're saying but at the end of the day it does come down to economics. Your argument only stands, IMO, if you're on an even playing field but the Thai GDP is half a trillion a year, the UK 3 trillion, the US 20 trillion - so the ability of the thais to absorb the same benefits afforded to you by other nations is diminished. IMO you're comparing apples with oranges.

I agree with the basic economics of it and if I thought that was the main reason for it, then I agree I would find it more difficult to disagree with. However, I believe the reasons are far more pervasive and cynical. I also believe it misses the bigger picture of how Thailand is seen in the world stage as a place to invest in and develop. It’s a tough one and I can see arguments in both side.  

[Stonker]

1 minute ago, Benroon said:

I hear what you're saying but at the end of the day it does come down to economics. Your argument only stands, IMO, if you're on an even playing field but the Thai GDP is half a trillion a year, the UK 3 trillion, the US 20 trillion - so the ability of the thais to absorb the same benefits afforded to you by other nations is diminished. IMO you're comparing apples with oranges.

Exactly - all you need to do is look at the countries Thailand has Reciprocal Health Care Agreements with (Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Vietnam and China) and, say, Australia (Belgium, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, United Kingdom) - and even then the reciprocal benefits are strictly limited.

 

[Marc26]

52 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Not about entitlement @Benroon. It’s about fairness. I’m perfectly happy to have 100% reciprocal arrangements across the world. If I pay more to go in to a museum in Thailand then so should they in the U.K.  The same goes for owning business outright, land or houses also. I don’t want entitlement I want fairness. It’s far easier of course for the Thais to establish a discriminatory system as they are more or less ethnically pure. If you don’t have Black hair, and look Thai, then there’s a damn good chance you are not Thai. Try applying that in open societies in the West and see how long it takes for the police to be called.  Imagine asking an Asian looking person if they are British. Or a black guy if he’s British. All hell would break out. It’s too difficult and also grossly unfair. 
 

I have no problem people paying more for elective surgery. It’s your choice etc. But for emergency treatment it’s just plain wrong. The suggestion about paying taxes also falls down given a significant number of Thais pay no more or less tax than I pay in Thailand. They need to wake up and move in to the modern world or be forever caught in the middle income trap. That of course is exactly what the genuinely wealthy Thais (many who own foreign businesses and houses abroad) actually want. They want this “Them and us” culture to persist. It’s a great way of filling their business with local cheap Labour. The poor and uneducated Thais don’t see it and they are called to rally around the flag. It’s a fallacy that ensures they remain under the thumb.  

Why would you ever want to visit or live in a country you feel that way about?

it absolutely blows my mind that some people have such vitriol for a country, yet also seem obsessed with it!

 

Why wouldn't you find a country that you have a better, more positive view of?

 

Doesn't make sense at all, IMO

And I have never experienced this phenomenon outside of Thailand, in any country I have visited

Edited September 29, 2021 by Marc26

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, LoongFred said:

US also charges foreign student more for education. It's no secret. 

Why are some falangs expecting special treatment? The costs are not high, and should be appreciated. 

It's not the same thing. Public universities in the US charge foreign students at the out of state rate. For example, if I want to go to Cal Berkeley I get charged the same if I'm from Colorado or Cambodia. Interestingly private schools don't charge extra. The real reason it costs so much for a foreign student in the US is because they are not eligible for most tuition assistance programs whether state or Federal. Of course because universities cost so much in the US too. However if I get sick and need to go to the local hospital, I get charged the same whether I'm from California, Colorado or Cambodia.  

[Bob20]

19 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Why would you ever want to visit or live in a country you feel that way about?

it absolutely blows my mind that some people have such vitriol for a country, yet also seem obsessed with it!

Why wouldn't you find a country that you have a better, more positive view of?

Doesn't make sense at all, IMO

And I have never experienced this phenomenon outside of Thailand, in any country I have visited

Not wanting to speak for @Soidogbut there is of course a difference between visiting a country or living there. Plenty of places I have enjoyed visiting, but would never want to live there.

And it's also quite possible to see the pro's and con's of a country, including your own, and recognising what is good and what could be improved. I think that realisation can be used for advancing, instead of stagnating or worse.

So, that someone recognises what could be improved is actually a good thing. Whether it will ever happen is another matter altogether.

[Benroon]

23 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Why would you ever want to visit or live in a country you feel that way about?

it absolutely blows my mind that some people have such vitriol for a country, yet also seem obsessed with it!

Why wouldn't you find a country that you have a better, more positive view of?

Doesn't make sense at all, IMO

And I have never experienced this phenomenon outside of Thailand, in any country I have visited

I agree with the premise - some people (I don't mean Soidog here) seem desperate to get here to complain how hard done by they are, its baffling. Thousands of them and TV is littered with them. You roll with it or go home.

No-one likes to be gouged but get this into perspective - if I want to hire a jetski or buy a new 30,000 baht AC unit, then for sure I send the wife on ahead to get the thai price, but should an attraction want to charge me 100 baht extra because they know I can afford it, good grief so what ? Or health care, I had a bad eye infection years ago, it was treated brilliantly including calling a consultant in on her day off, and my bill was 1,600 baht, I have no idea what a thai would pay nor do I care, I was happy to pay that within my budget, maybe that is what the thais are getting at ? Should I be thrilled they've treated something that looked very bad to me or pissed off a thai may have got the same treatment for 500 baht less? Perspective.

Because in return I get the beaches, I get great food for less than home, I get glorious weather all year, I get to go scuba diving if I want to, I see smiles I wouldn't get at home and in return I might have to cough up a bit more than people who generally aren't as comfortable as I am. Perspective.

[Soidog]

44 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Why would you ever want to visit or live in a country you feel that way about?

it absolutely blows my mind that some people have such vitriol for a country, yet also seem obsessed with it!

Why wouldn't you find a country that you have a better, more positive view of?

Doesn't make sense at all, IMO

And I have never experienced this phenomenon outside of Thailand, in any country I have visited

I do @Marc26. I spend a lot of my time in the U.K. and in Holland. I have business interests in Thailand as part of the Dutch company I work for also. My comments are not intended to be vitriolic, simply trying to balance out the negative comments and overly optimistic comments some people make about Thailand.
Thailand is a naturally beautiful country but socially living in a protectionist past. That’s all  I also don’t subscribe to this “if you don’t like it leave” attitude some people have,  I’m afraid that doesn’t progress the world at all and kills debate.  

I love the food also ! 

[Soidog]

21 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Not wanting to speak for @Soidogbut there is of course a difference between visiting a country or living there. Plenty of places I have enjoyed visiting, but would never want to live there.

And it's also quite possible to see the pro's and con's of a country, including your own, and recognising what is good and what could be improved. I think that realisation can be used for advancing, instead of stagnating or worse.

So, that someone recognises what could be improved is actually a good thing. Whether it will ever happen is another matter altogether.

My point exactly and very well put @Bob20. This is a forum about Thailand. It’s not a Thailand appreciation society. I have plenty of things wrong in the U.K. and EU, and don’t even get me started on the U.S . It’s not the Thai people I have problems with. People are generally the same the world over. It’s their forms of government and leaders who are the issue.  

[Marc26]

21 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Not wanting to speak for @Soidogbut there is of course a difference between visiting a country or living there. Plenty of places I have enjoyed visiting, but would never want to live there.

And it's also quite possible to see the pro's and con's of a country, including your own, and recognising what is good and what could be improved. I think that realisation can be used for advancing, instead of stagnating or worse.

So, that someone recognises what could be improved is actually a good thing. Whether it will ever happen is another matter altogether.

I actually misread Soidog's post wrong, Soidog,  my bad

 

But it still stands in general. As you pointed out, there is a level of frustrating in travel and living overseas.

I certainly haven't handled it well at times, but you see such vitriol towards the country from so many expats/frequent visitors, yet they seem obsessed with the place. It is astounding to me, go find a place you feel more positive about