News Forum - Court rules for Health Ministry, calls dual pricing beneficial

[Soidog]

7 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Sounds like you would be happier in the  UK. How easy is it to get your wife a visa there?

I am happier in the U.K.  that’s why I base myself there have a house there and often work there. As for the wife, she was Dutch and hence no issues with visas. Sadly died 4 years ago. 

[Stonker]

38 minutes ago, Stevejm said:

Very interesting. On that basis he should be on his knees in thanks rather than wasting the courts time 

 

31 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

My position is well documented and I'd be ashamed hiding in the corner if I were him.

His initial consultation would have cost more in Holland than his whole treatment here (his total costs are actually only about 2/3 of the compulsory health care policy excess in Holland!).

20.000 baht for years of cancer treatment. JHC!

 

21 minutes ago, Stevejm said:

Yes I checked out the links in your post. Good job!

Thank you. I didn't want to opine among the facts of the case, but to me it's just unbelievable and he's a free loading parasite - as @Yinn would say a *กาฝาก* who gives all expats here are a bad name.

Try explaining that to a couple of posters here, though,  complete with countless links to definitive government websites in the UK or Aus explaining the rules and the policy, and giving countless cases of specific well documented examples, and they'll simply accuse you of talking "nonsense" at best or, more frequently, "lying".

[LoongFred]

3 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I am happier in the U.K.  that’s why I base myself there have a house there and often work there. As for the wife, she was Dutch and hence no issues with visas. Sadly died 4 years ago. 

Sorry  for your loss.  So what's your connection with Thailand? It seems you aren't very happy with Thailand, so it might not be your cup of tea. To each his own, enjoy.

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Spice61 said:

Yes Medical tier systems are ok!

But don’t think they should go over 200% more than Thais!

It's only the expensive tests and treatment that are costly, and they're NOT "200% more than Thais".

At the high end, for example, a spinal MRI costs 18,700 baht for Thais or ASEAN (Tier 1 or 2), 25% more for foreign taxpayers at 23,375 (Tier 3) and 28,050 for retirees and tourists (Tier 4).

Very few Thais will pay, though, as 99.95% have public health coverage so the appropriate government departments are billed instead, as also applies to registered migrant workers and foreign taxpayers.

2 hours ago, Spice61 said:

especially for those foreigners who pay tax here and get Thai wages?

If foreigners pay tax here they don't pay anything as they're covered by the Social Security Scheme.

Very few "foreigners who pay tax here ... get Thai wages" as the minimum monthly salary for an expat to get a work permit here is 50,000 baht a month.

[LoongFred]

28 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Wrong.

That's tax resident, not ordinarily resident according to the NHS which could be on their first day in the country or after several months. Unless they have limited leave to remain they would also be liable for an NHS surcharge which is £624 (30,000 baht) per year, payable in advance with your visa application so £3,120 for a 5-year visa (150,000 baht) regardless of whether you use the NHS or not.

IF you think you're bored of hearing this repeated over and over, what about me?

I'm not going to the UK ever. I have no interest or desire to do so. I'd like to see many places in the world but not the UK.  

As for seeking medical care, Thailand is high on the list. I get free care in the US, from employer paid policy , 100%. Since they have prescribed protocols, sometimes they need a push to get going. BTW Thailand uses the same protocols but I seem to get my way easier. 

Dental care here in the boonies is very good. My wife remarked about the clinic we visited had better equipment and great care. We both had our teeth cleaned at about  500 B each. That's easily $100+ service in us.  Again my insurance would have paid in the US but I don't mind.

❤

[Soidog]

12 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Sorry  for your loss.  So what's your connection with Thailand? It seems you aren't very happy with Thailand, so it might not be your cup of tea. To each his own, enjoy.

Thank you.
 

My connection with Thailand was and largely is related to business. Since then I have made many friends, both local Thais and foreigners. Many whom worked there and settled there. The Thai people are generally very warm and welcoming and are hard workers. The country has some of the most stunning natural beauty and simply fantastic food. I can relax and chill in Thailand in a way I can rarely do in my own country….. However. I am a firm believer in progress and calling out things that are wrong. Because of Thailand’s history of patriarchy and more recently junta dictators, the outcome is it has many things wrong with its society, laws, education system and attitudes towards outsiders; cultivated by those who want to keep people under control (siege mentality). Much of that can be applied to all countries including my own.
 

As this forum comments and posts are often based on news items of the day, which by definition are about things which go wrong, I naturally focus on the things that are wrong and in my view need to be corrected. I’m not really motivated to make comments about the wonderful food. The amazing beaches and mountains. The relaxed way of life and the fun loving people. If you want to set up a topic on those, I will happily contribute. 

[LoongFred]

10 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Thank you.
 

My connection with Thailand was and largely is related to business. Since then I have made many friends, both local Thais and foreigners. Many whom worked there and settled there. The Thai people are generally very warm and welcoming and are hard workers. The country has some of the most stunning natural beauty and simply fantastic food. I can relax and chill in Thailand in a way I can rarely do in my own country….. However. I am a firm believer in progress and calling out things that are wrong. Because of Thailand’s history of patriarchy and more recently junta dictators, the outcome is it has many things wrong with its society, laws, education system and attitudes towards outsiders; cultivated by those who want to keep people under control (siege mentality). Much of that can be applied to all countries including my own.
 

As this forum comments and posts are often based on news items of the day, which by definition are about things which go wrong, I naturally focus on the things that are wrong and in my view need to be corrected. I’m not really motivated to make comments about the wonderful food. The amazing beaches and mountains. The relaxed way of life and the fun loving people. If you want to set up a topic on those, I will happily contribute. 

Unnecessary comparisons are not helpful.  As you said there are many positive things to say. I too have many Thai friends from all walks of life. If they complain I listen and if asked for my opinion I'll give it. Generally  I want to be positive and not judge based on where I'm from.

My Thai friends have ranged from ordinary people and neighbors to high ranking government officials. All are OK.  I don't suggest how to do something unless asked. Since I only see a small part of the issue and realize the news often slants things, it's best not to complain.

 

[Bob20]

4 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Unnecessary comparisons are not helpful.  As you said there are many positive things to say. I too have many Thai friends from all walks of life. If they complain I listen and if asked for my opinion I'll give it. Generally  I want to be positive and not judge based on where I'm from.

My Thai friends have ranged from ordinary people and neighbors to high ranking government officials. All are OK.  I don't suggest how to do something unless asked. Since I only see a small part of the issue and realize the news often slants things, it's best not to complain.

Well, not everyone is the same. Variety is the spice of life. And westerners are usually more outspoken and direct. It can all coexist.

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, LoongFred said:

Unnecessary comparisons are not helpful.  As you said there are many positive things to say. I too have many Thai friends from all walks of life. If they complain I listen and if asked for my opinion I'll give it. Generally  I want to be positive and not judge based on where I'm from.

My Thai friends have ranged from ordinary people and neighbors to high ranking government officials. All are OK.  I don't suggest how to do something unless asked. Since I only see a small part of the issue and realize the news often slants things, it's best not to complain.

I generally agree. I certainly don’t voice the opinions I do here to my Thai friends. Most of them have learned it’s simply not worth complaining about the way things are in Thailand, as the fundamentals of what’s wrong change little. Occasionally  they ask my views on Thailand or they read things in the news about Europe and enquire. Often they are left flabbergasted when I explain about how the police operate and how ordinary people can take high ranking people to court and actually win their case. Sometimes the conversation will turn to those we can not speak of and then it’s time to leave! 
 

I find that some people get confused between complaining and debate. Some people want a quiet life and simply get on with things; and there is nothing wrong in that. If you are one of those people, then reading posts in forum such as this is not the place to be. Others see the problems and want to understand and voice opinions and suggest change. The experience of seeing how things can be done differently with better outcomes is often derived from living in a more open, advance and progressive economy and society.  

Opinions of course should only be voiced when invited to do so or in collective opinions media such as this. I regard pointless complaining as things like complaints about the weather, or that you didn’t win the lottery, or you wish you had been born in another country. These are things we literally can do nothing about. Topics such as education, human rights, violence, immigration policies, healthcare, methods of governance etc are all within our gift to change and improve for the collective good. I see this as debate, not complaint. 

[LoongFred]

11 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I generally agree. I certainly don’t voice the opinions I do here to my Thai friends. Most of them have learned it’s simply not worth complaining about the way things are in Thailand, as the fundamentals of what’s wrong change little. Occasionally  they ask my views on Thailand or they read things in the news about Europe and enquire. Often they are left flabbergasted when I explain about how the police operate and how ordinary people can take high ranking people to court and actually win their case. Sometimes the conversation will turn to those we can not speak of and then it’s time to leave! 
 

I find that some people get confused between complaining and debate. Some people want a quiet life and simply get on with things; and there is nothing wrong in that. If you are one of those people, then reading posts in forum such as this is not the place to be. Others see the problems and want to understand and voice opinions and suggest change. The experience of seeing how things can be done differently with better outcomes is often derived from living in a more open, advance and progressive economy and society.  

Opinions of course should only be voiced when invited to do so or in collective opinions media such as this. I regard pointless complaining as things like complaints about the weather, or that you didn’t win the lottery, or you wish you had been born in another country. These are things we literally can do nothing about. Topics such as education, human rights, violence, immigration policies, healthcare, methods of governance etc are all within our gift to change and improve for the collective good. I see this as debate, not complaint. 

The difference between and debate can be very small. Goings-on and on about things we can't control isn't debate in my book, but others might view it differently. 

Let's look at things we can reasonably influence or change.  Otherwise we're  only passing into the wind. 

Thais generally avoid criticism so we should accept there culture and act thec same. Generally Thais will work around a subject to reach a conclusion to avoid criticizing.  However, it work and feelings are saved. I could go on and on but you can ask Yinn who will tell you straight up.

[LoongFred]

Just now, LoongFred said:

The difference between complaining and debate can be very small. Goings-on and on about things we can't control isn't debate in my book, but others might view it differently. 

Let's look at things we can reasonably influence or change.  Otherwise we're  only passing into the wind. 

Thais generally avoid criticism (not criticizing is a Buddhist principle) so we should accept there culture and act thec same. Generally Thais will work around a subject to reach a conclusion to avoid criticizing.  However, it worksvand feelings are saved. I could go on and on but you can ask Yinn who will tell you straight up.

 

[Soidog]

8 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

The difference between and debate can be very small. Goings-on and on about things we can't control isn't debate in my book, but others might view it differently. 

Let's look at things we can reasonably influence or change.  Otherwise we're  only passing into the wind. 

Thais generally avoid criticism so we should accept there culture and act thec same. Generally Thais will work around a subject to reach a conclusion to avoid criticizing.  However, it work and feelings are saved. I could go on and on but you can ask Yinn who will tell you straight up.

Again I agree and good conversation l. Like most people in all countries, they learn to adapt ways that work in the environment they find themselves in.
 

It’s interesting how I have seen many mild mannered Thai wife’s and girls friends who sit happily by chatting about their job, latest phone or handbag while in Thailand. Soon as they travel with their job or boyfriend/husband to the U.K. Netherlands or other European country, they will soon learn to complain in shops, demand refunds and replacement of faulty goods. People adapt to what they can get away with. It’s only worth voicing opinions if someone will listen. 
 

As an amusing aside. The one thing I have noticed about Thais who travel abroad frequently, is that they complain as much, if not more about Thai driving when they return home as foreigners.  They have seen first hand the benefits of things like leaving gaps in queuing traffic to allow traffic to flow, how there are working alternatives to highway U-turns etc, It’s then hard to accept what they see back home.  Makes me smile, especially when I remind them “This is Thailand and Jai yen yen!  We are all human….

[Guevara]

On 9/29/2021 at 11:48 AM, Stonker said:

But European countries do charge "foreigners", unless they're residents or taxpayers, in exactly the same way.

Name any that don't. Any at all.

England doesn't just charge them the full price, as Thailand does, but charges them an additional 50% more!

I question your claim that the UK charge 50% more for people from overseas unless it is selective or cosmetic intervention.  Until the 1980's the UK NHS waived most of overseas therapeutic interventions.

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, Stevejm said:

Very interesting. On that basis he should be on his knees in thanks rather than wasting the courts time 

4 hours ago, Bob20 said:

My position is well documented and I'd be ashamed hiding in the corner if I were him.

What I'm most appalled by in this thread isn't the parasite freeloading off the Thais and the taxpayers and then complaining about it, or even the pair of bigots denying that the hostile environment policy was hostile, but the deliberate excrement stirring and mis-direction by Coconuts and others, all happily repeated without a second thought.

Once you look at the dates it's clear that it was impossible for the case to have anything to do with the new Tier charging system which was only introduced in August 2019, when the  supposed "overcharging" for treatment was from 2015 to 2109, first complained about in 2016, and the complaint was registered with the police over a month before the system was announced.

... but the reports very clearly blame the August 2019 Tier system.

Seriously disgraceful reporting - given that, I wouldn't trust the report of what the judges were supposed to have said without it being reported in a more reliable source, as while I can see a politician sayng it off the cuff I find it hard to believe that three lawyers turned judges would say as reported in a prepared statement so I'm sure it's been either mis-quoted, mis-translated, or edited and mis-reported.

It just doesn't ring true at all and, more significantly, it doesn't tie in, in any way, with what Erwin Buse is saying as his grounds for taking it further and appealing the verdict, which is simply that the hospital got their sums wrong and overcharged.

[LoongFred]

29 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Again I agree and good conversation l. Like most people in all countries, they learn to adapt ways that work in the environment they find themselves in.
 

It’s interesting how I have seen many mild mannered Thai wife’s and girls friends who sit happily by chatting about their job, latest phone or handbag while in Thailand. Soon as they travel with their job or boyfriend/husband to the U.K. Netherlands or other European country, they will soon learn to complain in shops, demand refunds and replacement of faulty goods. People adapt to what they can get away with. It’s only worth voicing opinions if someone will listen. 
 

As an amusing aside. The one thing I have noticed about Thais who travel abroad frequently, is that they complain as much, if not more about Thai driving when they return home as foreigners.  They have seen first hand the benefits of things like leaving gaps in queuing traffic to allow traffic to flow, how there are working alternatives to highway U-turns etc, It’s then hard to accept what they see back home.  Makes me smile, especially when I remind them “This is Thailand and Jai yen yen!  We are all human….

I think we run in different circles. Thais abroad con be insistent not argumentative.  

[Soidog]

16 minutes ago, Guevara said:

I question your claim that the UK charge 50% more for people from overseas unless it is selective or cosmetic intervention.  Until the 1980's the UK NHS waived most of overseas therapeutic interventions.

Agree. Although the official “policy” is to charge foreigners, the reality is that unless it’s surgery requested by a foreigner, it’s rarely, if ever charged. Interestingly, if charges are made it’s usually via prior agreements such as cross charging of EU nationals. 
 

A rich foreigner who decides they wish a heart bypass at somewhere like Papworrh hospital,  as it’s a world renowned cardio hospital would be charged. However, I know for an absolute fact, that any foreigner who visits a GP (which is free) and referred to a hospital, is very unlikely to be made to pay. In the case of repeated surgery or where the foreigner has reasonable alternatives at home, they will request they return home for the surgery. Where that is detrimental to the health of the patient, it doesn’t happen. The system just is not interested in recovering costs for the relatively few people who use the service in this way. 
 

I can accept, to a point, that the U.K. can “afford” to be more benevolent than a less wealthy country. However, just because we can, doesn’t mean to say it’s fair. I have a wealthy friend, but I don’t expect him to pick up the tab for dinner each time we meet. Nice that most times he does mind you

[cowslip]

On 9/29/2021 at 10:26 AM, Stonker said:

Splendid - the only rational outcome given not only Thai law but the identical system in Australia and most Western countries, and a system in the UK that doesn't just charge foreigners 100% of the full price, as Thailand does, but 150% of it.

Sheer and utter hypocrisy on the part of Erwin Buse and his entitled supporters.

Just about everything you say is either inaccurate or illogical.

[cowslip]

Dual pricing on things like National Parks doesn't improve income, it does reduce visitors and of course damages the Thai international image.

there is no rest to suggest the practices of other countries in any way justifies or mitigated the actions of Thailand.

[Stonker]

15 minutes ago, Guevara said:

I question your claim that the UK charge 50% more for people from overseas unless it is selective or cosmetic intervention.  Until the 1980's the UK NHS waived most of overseas therapeutic interventions.

Well, I've given the links to NHSE confirmng that several times, and it's for all but A&E treatment not just "selective or cosmetic intervention", and it's chargeable in advance and if you do a runner you're blacklisted from the UK and if NHS Trusts or contractors don't charge then the individual NHS Trust or contractor pays- what more evidence do you want?

It isn't "the UK", though, it's only NHS England (and Wales), not NHS Scotland (or NI), who only charge 100% of the charge.

Here are some of the links again, to NHS and Gov.UK sites, and direct quotes from each after each one with the "150%" in bold:

1. https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/visiting-or-moving-to-england/visitors-from-outside-the-european-economic-area-eea/

 

"If you're visiting England from a non-EEA country, even if you're a former UK resident, you'll be charged for NHS secondary care at 150% of the standard NHS rate, unless an exemption from the charge category applies to either you or the treatment.

You should make sure you're covered for healthcare through personal medical or travel insurance for the duration of your visit.

You'll need to pay the full estimated cost in advance if the treatment you need is non-urgent, otherwise the treatment will not be provided.

If you're a non-EEA national and you fail to pay for NHS treatment when a charge applies, any future immigration application you make may be denied."

(That's the first paragraph, unedited - it doesn't get much clearer )

2. https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/visiting-or-moving-to-england/how-to-access-nhs-services-in-england-if-you-are-visiting-from-abroad/

If you're visiting England for less than 6 months, you should ensure you're covered for healthcare through personal medical insurance during your visit, even if you're a former UK resident. If you're not ordinarily resident in the UK and you need to pay for NHS hospital treatment, you'll be charged at 150% of the national NHS rate.

3.  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-the-nhs-charges-overseas-visitors-for-nhs-hospital-care/how-the-nhs-charges-overseas-visitors-for-nhs-hospital-care

Within England, free NHS hospital treatment is provided on the basis of someone being ‘ordinarily resident’. Being ordinarily resident is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, National Insurance contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK.......

Visitors to the UK from the EU

 

Visitors may have to pay for treatment if:

• an EHIC cannot be provided
• a PRC cannot be obtained from the relevant EU member state
• an S2 form has not been issued

Charges will be calculated at 150% of the national NHS rate.

Providers should continue to follow existing guidance on upfront charging.

Visitors to the UK from Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland

Visitors to the UK from Norway will be able to access medically necessary care in the UK by presenting a valid Norwegian passport.

Visitors from Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland who fall ill or have a medical emergency during a temporary stay in England may have to pay for NHS healthcare. Any treatment that has to be paid for will be charged at 150% of the national NHS rate.

 

UK nationals who no longer live in the UK

Because the NHS is a residency-based system, under NHS rules UK nationals who move abroad on a permanent basis lose their entitlement to free NHS healthcare. .....

Any treatment that may have to be paid for will be charged at 150% of the national NHS rate.

 

People living outside the EU

People who live outside the EU, including former UK residents, are not automatically entitled to free NHS care. They should make sure they are covered by personal health or travel insurance so that they can recover from their insurer any treatment costs that they are required to pay. They will be charged at 150% of the NHS national tariff, unless an exemption applies to them or the service they are accessing, or they are covered by a reciprocal healthcare agreement between the UK and their country.

 

 

 

 

 

4. https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/guidance-chargeable-overseas-visitor.pdf

1 Policy statement

From 6 April 2015, new Regulations will require that chargeable visitors from
non-EEA countries are to be charged at 150% of tariff for NHS services they
receive. The Department of Health provides guidance on the identification of
chargeable patients.

Regulation 7provides that non-EEA chargeable overseas visitors must be charged for
relevant services provided to them by NHS providers (defined by the regulations as
NHS Trusts, Foundation Trusts and local authorities exercising public health
functions) at 150% of the tariff for that service

5.  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/977345/Main_Guidance_post_February_2021_v3.pdf

5. When charges apply, a relevant body must make and recover charges from the person
liable to pay for the services provided to the overseas visitor. Since 23 October 2017
relevant bodies are required to recover these charges in full in advance of providing them,
unless doing so would prevent or delay the provision of immediately necessary or urgent
services.

16. Those visitors from the EU to the UK who do not have a valid EHIC, PRC or S2 and who
are not covered under another exemption category under the Charging Regulations must
be charged for services they receive at the point of accessing care. They must be charged
at 150% of the national NHS tariff.

If you do a search for "nhs england 150% charge for visitors" you'll find plenty more - what else do you want from me ???

 

 

[Yinn]

18 hours ago, Marc26 said:

certainly haven't handled it well at times, but you see such vitriol towards the country from so many expats/frequent visitors, yet they seem obsessed with the place. It is astounding to me, go find a place you feel more positive about

Do women complain? No

Do young people complain? No

Is only old men with male menopause. Their own problem. Be better if they return their country. You think we want listen to this people? 
 

Boring.

[Stonker]

12 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

Just about everything you say is either inaccurate or illogical.

Well ... umm ... what more evidence can I give you?

[Stonker]

33 minutes ago, Soidog said:

However, I know for an absolute fact, that any foreigner who visits a GP (which is free) and referred to a hospital, is very unlikely to be made to pay.

Well ... the NHS and GovUK don't agree with your "absolute facts".

They could, of course be wrong

[Marc26]

48 minutes ago, Yinn said:

Do women complain? No

Do young people complain? No

Is only old men with male menopause. Their own problem. Be better if they return their country. You think we want listen to this people? 
 

Boring.

I actually agree with you! and usually, old white men 5555

[Marc26]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

 she was Dutch and hence no issues with visas. Sadly died 4 years ago. 

Sorry to hear that Soidog

[Marc26]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

Again I agree and good conversation l. Like most people in all countries, they learn to adapt ways that work in the environment they find themselves in.
 

It’s interesting how I have seen many mild mannered Thai wife’s and girls friends who sit happily by chatting about their job, latest phone or handbag while in Thailand. Soon as they travel with their job or boyfriend/husband to the U.K. Netherlands or other European country, they will soon learn to complain in shops, demand refunds and replacement of faulty goods. People adapt to what they can get away with. It’s only worth voicing opinions if someone will listen. 
 

 

My wife was afraid to go into a 4 star hotel when I met here

She then had a business where she was dealing with the owners of those hotels.

She would say "I have(my last name) in me now"

 

If she stayed in Thailand, no way she would ever have had the confidence to deal with the people she had to deal with in her business.

She gained all her confidence from living outside of Thailand.....