News Forum - Bangkok health officials to roll out Sinovac/AstraZeneca vaccine cocktail

[CNX]

Which countries will recognise sinovac and AstraZeneca as suitable for travel?

[Bob20]

Just now, CNX said:

Which countries will recognise sinovac and AstraZeneca as suitable for travel?

Thailand 

[Griff1315]

15 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Would you rather lose $5m dollars from your total $25m worth?

Or lose $1m from your total $1.5m worth?

Yes, losing $5m is more than losing $1m. 

But you're way better off in the end in the first example.

Same here.

No matter a faster decline. The end result is still better.

 

Study shows 80% COVID-19 antibodies lost six months after second Pfizer vaccine dose; what this means

The results support the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC), recommendation for booster shots especially for the elderly due to fading immunity

Losing a a bit more than 5 of your 25 million 

 

[Bob20]

Just now, Griff1315 said:

Study shows 80% COVID-19 antibodies lost six months after second Pfizer vaccine dose; what this means

The results support the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC), recommendation for booster shots especially for the elderly due to fading immunity

Losing a a bit more than 5 of your 25 million 

I think you know it meant to be an illustrative example.

But with 5 million left, I'd still organise a party and you're invited  

Now, on the matter of waning, your copy doesn't show anything but a headline, but this is for the moment the largest leading study:

https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2113

[Griff1315]

2 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I think you know it meant to be an illustrative example.

But with 5 million left, I'd still organise a party and you're invited  

Now, on the matter of waning, your copy doesn't show anything but a headline, but this is for the moment the largest leading study:

https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2113

No time for parties Bob I'm too busy queuing up for my next vaccine shot. It's like a cold beer 2 is never enough.

[ThaiWolf123]

https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2113

The results, released in a press release, show that protection after two doses of the Pfizer vaccine decreased from 88% at one month to 74% at five to six months; protection for AstraZeneca decreased was from 77% at one month to 67% at four to five months.

Pfizer looks ok to me!

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

You don't quote any evidence again, but if you're referring to studies from a few months ago, effectiveness against Delta was negligible.

What is negligible?  Some definitions say "not worth considering"

That is inaccurate to say Sinvoac against Delta is negligible.. Surely you know it. I know it. 

You simply don't like a Chinese vaccine.  That should be clear to everyone who reads this forum.

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

So no, it was not false information, but you prefer to misquote and read it selectively then interpreting the results as if you received two shots Sinovac, which you don't.

Further, in the quote of yours that I copied, you never stated only 1 shot of Sinovac.  Show me where I incorrectly quoted you. 

You do know what "quote" means?   You know what  "misquote" means?  or do you?

It appears to me you are falsely accusing me of misquoting you.  "quoting" ... " q u o t i n g  " Clear enough?

As I noted before, and I noted again, you simply want to spin a story.

Its clear now, in my view, you dislike the Chinese vaccine because its not as good as some other vaccines (where I agree its not as good as mRNA nor AZ), but you go one step further and you then like to exaggerate about it not being as good.  Let me quote you on that ... " q u o t e "  OK ? QUOTE !   

   "I see less point in jabbing Sinovac as it doesn't protect at all against delta which is dominant."

Not one word in that quote about any # of jabs.  Not one word - simply the word 'jabbing' ...  But go ahead - say again I misquoted you.  Let everyone know how you accuse others of things that are not true.

Edited September 10, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

24 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

What is negligible?  Some definitions say "not worth considering"

That is inaccurate to say Sinvoac against Delta is negligible.. Surely you know it. I know it. 

You simply don't like a Chinese vaccine.  That should be clear to everyone who reads this forum.

Further, in the quote of yours that I copied, you never stated only 1 shot of Sinovac.  Show me where I incorrectly quoted you. 

You do know what "quote" means?   You know what  "misquote" means?  or do you?

It appears to me you are falsely accusing me of misquoting you.  "quoting" ... " q u o t i n g  " Clear enough?

As I noted before, and I noted again, you simply want to spin a story.

Its clear now, in my view, you dislike the Chinese vaccine because its not as good as some other vaccines (where I agree its not as good as mRNA nor AZ), but you go one step further and you then like to exaggerate about it not being as good.  Let me quote you on that ... " q u o t e "  OK ? QUOTE !   

   "I see less point in jabbing Sinovac as it doesn't protect at all against delta which is dominant."

Not one word in that quote about any # of jabs.  Not one word - simply the word 'jabbing' ...  But go ahead - say again I misquoted you.  Let everyone know how you accuse others of things that are not true.

My friend, as in your initial message in which you tried to avoid the chance of being confronted by avoiding to quote me or even use my name, this is the second message in which you give no evidence for anything. I'm not going into further detail as yours is no more than an opinion, to which you are entitled.

BTW I am NOT against Chinese vaccines. Actually, most of the vaccines are not very effective straight after the first shot. However, Sinovac is especially ineffective. You (should) know the numbers.

I prefer not to mix (not even with AZ or Pfizer, which are NOT Chinese, disproving your point) until enough evidence is available. Because mixing is the second level of uncertainty and risk on top of these two vaccines being only approved for emergency use. There is a limit to what risk I will accept without solid evidence .

And there simply isn't any on mixing (yet). 

Now, if after proper research there was evidence of good safety and effectiveness, I would happily accept it.

Unfortunately, if it showed it wasn't very good, you would still claim your "better than nothing" argument.

And that's how you keep standards low and a government gets away with everything.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, ThaiWolf123 said:

https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2113

The results, released in a press release, show that protection after two doses of the Pfizer vaccine decreased from 88% at one month to 74% at five to six months; protection for AstraZeneca decreased was from 77% at one month to 67% at four to five months.

Pfizer looks ok to me!

 

3 hours ago, Bob20 said:

I think you know it meant to be an illustrative example.

But with 5 million left, I'd still organise a party and you're invited  

Now, on the matter of waning, your copy doesn't show anything but a headline, but this is for the moment the largest leading study:

https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2113

I think @Griff1315 must be referring to the Case Western Reserve University and Brown University in the US study.

Most others give a drop of around 6% every two months, with the third booster shot probably giving much longer immunity although that's still an unknown.

If so, this would probably put it on a par with tetanus jabs, or less.

Edit:

Tetanus is three primary then three boosters, then a booster every ten years.

I don't see many complaining about that.

[Alavan]

6 hours ago, Bob20 said:

AZ gives the best result if you replace it with Pfizer.

Maybe, but I don't know where they do it in Europe.
Spoke with a few specialists yesterday (had some drinks and dinner) and said I had 2 AZ injections and no Pfizer.
Thet said "we also, that is no problem". So if they are happy with that, why shouldn't I be?

[Bob20]

13 minutes ago, Alavan said:

Maybe, but I don't know where they do it in Europe.
Spoke with a few specialists yesterday (had some drinks and dinner) and said I had 2 AZ injections and no Pfizer.
Thet said "we also, that is no problem". So if they are happy with that, why shouldn't I be?

It was a play on words.

Because in most of Europe they don't use AZ on under 60's anymore, and in the UK they have chosen Pfizer for boosters for next year and ordered them already. Meanwhile they are donating millions of AZ to other countries in need. It's a tough pill to swallow, as the UK heavily invested in AZ and Oxford University.

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-areas/immunology-and-vaccines/uk-orders-35-million-pfizer-jabs-for-potential-2022-booster-programme/

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58307215

[Alavan]

22 hours ago, Bob20 said:

It was a play on words.

Because in most of Europe they don't use AZ on under 60's anymore, and in the UK they have chosen Pfizer for boosters for next year and ordered them already. Meanwhile they are donating millions of AZ to other countries in need. It's a tough pill to swallow, as the UK heavily invested in AZ and Oxford University.

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-areas/immunology-and-vaccines/uk-orders-35-million-pfizer-jabs-for-potential-2022-booster-programme/

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58307215

They don't use AZ not because it is inefficient, but there could be a very small chance of problems with under 40.

 

[Bob20]

13 minutes ago, Alavan said:

They don't use AZ not because it is inefficient, but there could be a very small chance of problems with under 40.

yup, I know

[oldcpu]

 

My Thai wife, who received 2xSinovac earlier this year, received an SMS just over an hour ago, and here in Phuket she was offered the opportunity to get an AZ booster even earlier this week.  While I suggested she pause a bit and give this some thought, she as is often the case, shrugged off my caution suggestion and instead immediately made an appointment for 14-September here in Phuket for her AZ booster jab. 

Unlike many on this thread, she, like most people I know, have ZERO worries about mixing AZ with Sinovac.

It does (IMHO) mean the non-refundable Moderna jabs that we bought and paid for her, may go unused by her, "if" and when the Moderna is available in Phuket (where NO ONE knows when those jabs will be given, if ever given).  In truth, we don't mind one bit if the paid for Moderna goes unused by my wife, as we both considered (when buying the Moderna for her for some TBD future date) that it was to be more of a donation to a local private hospital - and we weren't so 'fussed' about having to receive a Moderna jab (as the booking was so far in the future).  This could mean one or more of her paid for Moderna doses will be available for someone else, which will be good.

I'm curious as to what this 2xSinovacx + 1xAz + TBD-4th jab(?) will mean for any possibility of my wife travelling internationally. 

I suspect for her to fly now to Europe or to Canada, she will need sometime in the next few months, to get another AZ jab (so to have 2xAZ which is accepted by Canada, UK, Germany, France, even if not accepted by EMA) ... Or if "AZ+Moderna" is eventually accepted for International travel to Europe/Canada, which it is not accepted at present (to the best of my knowledge), to instead use one of her paid for Moderna certificates to get a Moderna jab some TBD after the AZ booster (if such a mix will be accepted for international travel)).   

This is all very dynamic.

Getting different types of vaccines at times appears to me to be somewhat political - where sometimes I wonder if (and for certain it is on this thread) that politics gets mixed in with assessments of vaccine efficacy.

 

[ChristyS]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:22 PM, oldcpu said:

Dark side ??  Now there is an exaggeration - I could say the same about you for what I see is an insistence to delay while thousands will likely die.

No Monopoly?  Where have you been ? Anyone who has looked at this in any detail will know North America and Western Europe (and a few countries, such as Israel) monopolized on Pfizer and Moderna during the early months when those vaccines came out.   If you don't believe that, then go research it. There have been a number of editorials noting this.

People are not Guinea pigs here. You totally ignore the study(s), hastly done I admit, but that were done (done with knowledge of 'inactivated' virus general history).

You want perfection while people die? So what, lets be perfect and lets let the people die instead? I hope you don't mean that.

In the mean time there are no trials showing the mixing with the 'inactivated virus' is dangerous. Not one.

In fact, the 'inactivated virus' method of development used in Sinovac has been shown for many decades to be very safe, and safe for mixing - yes the "method of development" safe even if different vaccine mixing has been used.   There is no such history for mixing mRNA as those developed vaccines are far too soon.  If you don't believe that, then go back and research the development method and history of mixing.

So while I happen to think Pfizer and Moderna are superior vaccines to Sinovac for non-mixing, ... when it comes to mixing its a totally different kettle of fish wrt the detail of studies needed.

You ARE fear mongering. Your statement about Oxford, without noting their conclusion as to how minimal those side effects were, shows fear mongering.

Disagree. Its very important.  That does not mean it replaces trials to prove safe, but it never-the-less is important for such studies. Your dismissing it out of hand illustrates your strong bias.

These are not unknown risks. Such a general statement again, shows your bias.   

Mixing inactivated vaccines has been common for decades.  Why do you ignore that?  Further, there has been research on mixing, with hundreds of cases.    

If one waits years for MORE results (to those already done), ignoring that (1) its known that inactivated vaccine mixing is nominally safe , and ignoring that (2) resent research with Sinovac/AstraZeneca on hundreds of people has shown to be safe, ... Ignoring such is IMHO a dangerous approach that will result in thousands needless dying in Thailand.

I have more faith in the safety of the Sinovac/AstraZeneca mixing being safe, than I do have a faith in 100m vaccines being on they way anytime 'soon'.

Its not an easy call to make, but I think in this case the Thai government has it right.

Thank  you for this conversation, I was going to refuse the AZ shot  as my first on Aug 24 was Sinovac, but your comments had me rethinking it- and as the hospital was only offering AZ  when I returned on Monday I accepted it. The best vaccine is the one you can get.

AZ certainly packs more of a punch  than Sinovac which only  gave me a profusely runny nose. With AZ  had to get into bed for a day and ran a slight fever  but 48 hours later  I'm fine. 

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, ChristyS said:

Thank  you for this conversation, I was going to refuse the AZ shot  as my first on Aug 24 was Sinovac, but your comments had me rethinking it- and as the hospital was only offering AZ  when I returned on Monday I accepted it. The best vaccine is the one you can get.

AZ certainly packs more of a punch  than Sinovac which only  gave me a profusely runny nose. With AZ  had to get into bed for a day and ran a slight fever  but 48 hours later  I'm fine. 

Glad you got the vaccine!

But I hope you know that the reaction to -any- second jab is usually stronger than to the first one.

And the reaction says nothing about how effective the vaccine is.

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, ChristyS said:

Thank  you for this conversation, I was going to refuse the AZ shot  as my first on Aug 24 was Sinovac, but your comments had me rethinking it- and as the hospital was only offering AZ  when I returned on Monday I accepted it. The best vaccine is the one you can get.

AZ certainly packs more of a punch  than Sinovac which only  gave me a profusely runny nose. With AZ  had to get into bed for a day and ran a slight fever  but 48 hours later  I'm fine. 

IMHO a big advantage of 1-jab of AZ (over 1-jab of Sinovac) is in addition to the superior efficacy of AZ after the 1-jab, is after the 2nd AZ jab, there is a superior chance that these 2xAZ jabs will be accepted for International travel.

Currently the 2xSinovac jabs are not recognized/accepted in as many countries as the 2xAZ jabs are recognized (although the Thai AZ is still not as widely accepted as one might hope - as USA hasn't accepted, and neither has the EMA, although some EU countries (Germany/France) do accept the Thai AZ)).

The big disadvantage I see for the AZ is one has to wait 8 to 12 weeks before the next AZ jab. Thats a long time with a global pandemic raging.  During those 8 to 12 weeks, the efficacy of AZ vs the Delta variant, is likely worse than 2xjabs of Sinovac (where Sinovac can be given much earlier).   

I think a second jab of an mRNA can be given reasonably soon (within a few weeks) of the first jab of AZ, but then there is the issue with mixing vaccines where many countries don't official recognize such mixing (for avoiding quarantine), even though such mixing (AZ/mRNA) is a common practice in a number of G7 countries (albeit not a practice in all).

[King Cotton]

1 hour ago, ChristyS said:

Thank  you for this conversation, I was going to refuse the AZ shot  as my first on Aug 24 was Sinovac, but your comments had me rethinking it- and as the hospital was only offering AZ  when I returned on Monday I accepted it. The best vaccine is the one you can get.

AZ certainly packs more of a punch  than Sinovac which only  gave me a profusely runny nose. With AZ  had to get into bed for a day and ran a slight fever  but 48 hours later  I'm fine. 

Yes, tell me about it! Exactly the same for me; AZ 2nd jab at 9AM Monday, OK till lunchtime but then my 48-hrs of zombie-ism started. After a paracetamol-assisted sleep, I spent all yesterday, like you, lying on the bed and slept little better, last night. Still groggy this morning, I managed to make myself submit that exciting ant encounter topic (Expat chat/ weird thoughts) and by lunchtime I was good to go again. A very strange after-effect, though, and certainly not bad enough to complain about.

Cheers!

KC