News Forum - Bangkok health officials to roll out Sinovac/AstraZeneca vaccine cocktail

[Thaiger]

From next Tuesday, health officials in Bangkok will replace 2 doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine with 1 dose of Sinovac, followed by a dose of AstraZeneca. According to a Nation Thailand report, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration says the policy is in line with guidelines for the dark red provinces, issued by the Public Health Ministry. The reason for the policy shift is that the gap between both vaccine doses is just 3 weeks, as opposed to the 12-week gap required between 2 doses of AstraZeneca. It’s hoped the shorter gap will boost immunity quicker, thereby allowing the country and economy […]

The post Bangkok health officials to roll out Sinovac/AstraZeneca vaccine cocktail appeared first on Thaiger News.

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[DoUKnowWhoIAm]

18 minutes ago, Thaiger said:

It’s hoped the shorter gap will boost

... the bank accounts of some people.

[Bob20]

Well, they've got to get rid of those 12m Sinovac doses they purchased (even though one day earlier they announced they wouldn't buy anymore).

So, now they reduce the period between the mixed jabs to 3 weeks and hope it boosts immunity quicker. Live experiments all over the place.

It would be funny if it wasn't so abysmal.

[oldcpu]

25 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

So, now they reduce the period between the mixed jabs to 3 weeks and hope it boosts immunity quicker. Live experiments all over the place.

Of course the alternative is to NOT do this, wait for a slow AstraZeneca delivery, or a slow Pfizer delivery, or a slower Moderna delivery, and watch many thousands more die.

MANY in Europe  and Canada (and other countries) have mixed jabs of vaccines, and thus far there have been NO studies showing this to be a dangerous practice.

So  what are the Thai authorities to do.  Simply wait for Pfizer and Moderna (and wait for far too slow AZ deliveries) and have thousands more die?  Wait for many more multi-year trials of mixing vaccines that would likely take even longer?  Not an easy call by any stretch of a balanced view point.

I am still waiting for my 2nd AZ jab, in the full knowledge that the 1 jab of AZ I obtained back in late June is not going to protect me much, and waiting 10 to 12 weeks for a 2nd jab is a long time.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

24 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Of course the alternative is to NOT do this, wait for a slow AstraZeneca delivery, or a slow Pfizer delivery, or a slower Moderna delivery, and watch many thousands more die.

MANY in Europe  and Canada (and other countries) have mixed jabs of vaccines, and thus far there have been NO studies showing this to be a dangerous practice.

So  what are the Thai authorities to do.  Simply wait for Pfizer and Moderna (and wait for far too slow AZ deliveries) and have thousands more die?  Wait for many more multi-year trials of mixing vaccines that would likely take even longer?  Not an easy call by any stretch of a balanced view point.

I am still waiting for my 2nd AZ jab, in the full knowledge that the 1 jab of AZ I obtained back in late June is not going to protect me much, and waiting 10 to 12 weeks for a 2nd jab is a long time.

I understand the reasoning. I object to the word "hope" and to experimenting on the live population.

This is not AZ+Pfizer that has partially completed trials. That mix looks promising for effectiveness, but even that definitely shows more adverse reactions (Oxford study).

This is Sinovac+AZ for which there are no major trials (EU and US don't even use Sinovac) and here it's empirically used on the population purely because of shortages, "hoping"...

What's next for reason of shortages? Diluting it to make more doses? Will you say it's less effective, but better than nothing?

This is not the way to go.

 

[oldcpu]

14 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

This is Sinovac+AZ for which there are no major trials (EU and US don't even use Sinovac)

"EU and US don't even use Sinovac"  << -- but that's part of the point wrt no fully publish peer reviewed paper, is it not?   No  western 1st world countries are using Sinovac.  The western studies don't include Sinovac.  And why is that?  Likely because the 1st world countries, monopolized on the more effective Pfizer and Moderna.  

As for the "Oxford" note of mixing reactions - compared to the benefit those are trivial relatively speaking, ... and without providing the full Oxford qualifications and conclusions (that the reactions are minor) from their study, saying they had observations are typically raised more in posts for 'vaccine mixing' fear mongering (IMHO).

14 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

What's next for reason of shortages? Diluting it to make more doses? Will you say it's less effective, but better than nothing?

This is not the way to go.

And what is the 'way to go' ?  Let thousands more die ?  I don't agree.

The reason for the shortages of Pfizer, of Moderna, and indeed of AstraZeneca in Thailand are all ancient history now.   

Right now, every week over a thousand people in Thailand are dying , because they can't get a vaccine.  Thanks to the Chinese (that many on this forum appear to hate) Thailand is able to get the Sinovac vaccine, but lets not kid ourselves, it does not have the best efficacy by any stretch of the imagination. It does use a proven vaccine development method, which gives confidence that it will NOT conflict with other vaccines.

Further, there are NO studies that conclude the mixing with Sinovac (nor the mRNA for that matter) is not safe.

Its not an easy call to make - and I think for once (after a pathetic slow start) the Thai government is finally starting to move in this area of vaccines, where movement is needed.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

15 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

"EU and US don't even use Sinovc"  << -- but thats part of the point wrt no fully publish peer reviewed paper, is it not?   No other western 1st world countries are using Sinovac.  And why is that?  Likely because the 1st world countries, monopolized on the more effective Pfizer and Moderna.  

As for the "Oxford" note of mixing reactions - compared to the benefit those are trivial relatively speaking, without providing the full Oxford qualifications and conclusions (that the reactions are minor) are typically raised more for fear mongering (IMHO).

And what is the 'way to go' ?  Let thousands more die ?  I don't agree.

The reason for the shortages of Pfizer, of Moderna, and indeed of AstraZeneca in Thailand are all ancient history now.   

Right now, every week over a thousand people in Thailand are dying , because they can't get a vaccine.  Thanks to the Chinese (that many on this forum appear to hate) Thailand is able to get the Sinovac vaccine, but lets not kid ourselves, it does not have the best efficacy by any stretch of the imagination. It does use a proven vaccine development method, which gives confidence that it will NOT conflict with other vaccines.

Further, there are NO studies that conclude the mixing with Sinovac (nor the mRNA for that matter) is not safe.

Its not an easy call to make - and I think for once (after a pathetic slow start) the Thai government is finally starting to move in this area of vaccines, where movement is needed.

Sorry friend, we had some good conversations, but you're going overboard to the dark side now

Pfizer was the first available and still now is seen as the best. No monopoly, just superiority. The government should not have bought 30m. They should have bought 120m, seeing that it's even cheaper than Sinovac. This small bit buying gives us a delay each time again.

And the lack of proper trials is no reason to use it regardless and use the people as Guinea pigs.

I'm not fear mongering. I'd like everyone to be vaccinated. I just want them to do it with a vaccine regime that's approved and safe, so they will be protected and not suffer from something else instead as a side effect. Plenty of examples from history. 

Reasoning that there are no studies that the mix is NOT safe, is a very laymen non-scientific argument that doesn't deserve a reply.

And nobody wants more people to die. But that doesn't mean you start taking unknown risks with mixing medication on the population. Even before 12m Sinovac were announced yesterday, we were told that there are 100m vaccines on the way. If  that were true, then there's no need to experiment on the people of Thailand.

[Griff1315]

It all boils down to the indisputable fact the the government were slow to react in ordering vaccines. Relying heavily on the deal with AstraZeneca and topping up on CCP funds by ordering Sinovac. This was never going to be enough then the arrival of Delta the Indian variant.

Slow procurement of good vaccines, slow reactions to to the break out before Sonkran (let them travel what will be will be). Low numbers of testing performed all adds up to a s##t storm.

 

[AlexPTY]

it's time to let people buy whatever they want to be infected with and provide the rest with whatever they can get. it's getting ridiculous, there are plenty of contradictory studies of efficacy, but vaccination works, period 

[oldcpu]

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Sorry friend, we had some good conversations, but you're going overboard to the dark side now

Dark side ??  Now there is an exaggeration - I could say the same about you for what I see is an insistence to delay while thousands will likely die.

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

 

Pfizer was the first available and still now is seen as the best. No monopoly, just superiority. The government should not have bought 30m. They should have bought 120m, seeing that it's even cheaper than Sinovac. This small bit buying gives us a delay each time again.

No Monopoly?  Where have you been ? Anyone who has looked at this in any detail will know North America and Western Europe (and a few countries, such as Israel) monopolized on Pfizer and Moderna during the early months when those vaccines came out.   If you don't believe that, then go research it. There have been a number of editorials noting this.

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

And the lack of proper trials is no reason to use it regardless and use the people as Guinea pigs.

People are not Guinea pigs here. You totally ignore the study(s), hastly done I admit, but that were done (done with knowledge of 'inactivated' virus general history).

You want perfection while people die? So what, lets be perfect and lets let the people die instead? I hope you don't mean that.

In the mean time there are no trials showing the mixing with the 'inactivated virus' is dangerous. Not one.

In fact, the 'inactivated virus' method of development used in Sinovac has been shown for many decades to be very safe, and safe for mixing - yes the "method of development" safe even if different vaccine mixing has been used.   There is no such history for mixing mRNA as those developed vaccines are far too soon.  If you don't believe that, then go back and research the development method and history of mixing.

So while I happen to think Pfizer and Moderna are superior vaccines to Sinovac for non-mixing, ... when it comes to mixing its a totally different kettle of fish wrt the detail of studies needed.

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I'm not fear mongering.

You ARE fear mongering. Your statement about Oxford, without noting their conclusion as to how minimal those side effects were, shows fear mongering.

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Reasoning that there are no studies that the mix is NOT safe, is a very laymen non-scientific argument that doesn't deserve a reply.

Disagree. Its very important.  That does not mean it replaces trials to prove safe, but it never-the-less is important for such studies. Your dismissing it out of hand illustrates your strong bias.

 

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

 But that doesn't mean you start taking unknown risks with mixing medication on the population.

These are not unknown risks. Such a general statement again, shows your bias.   

Mixing inactivated vaccines has been common for decades.  Why do you ignore that?  Further, there has been research on mixing, with hundreds of cases.    

If one waits years for MORE results (to those already done), ignoring that (1) its known that inactivated vaccine mixing is nominally safe , and ignoring that (2) resent research with Sinovac/AstraZeneca on hundreds of people has shown to be safe, ... Ignoring such is IMHO a dangerous approach that will result in thousands needless dying in Thailand.

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Even before 12m Sinovac were announced yesterday, we were told that there are 100m vaccines on the way. If  that were true, then there's no need to experiment on the people of Thailand.

I have more faith in the safety of the Sinovac/AstraZeneca mixing being safe, than I do have a faith in 100m vaccines being on they way anytime 'soon'.

Its not an easy call to make, but I think in this case the Thai government has it right.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oldcpu

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

Bangkok health officials to roll out Sinovac/AstraZeneca vaccine cocktail

0h goody, they will now be opening the bars to serve cocktails 

[HolyCowCm]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

So  what are the Thai authorities to do.  Simply wait for Pfizer and Moderna (and wait for far too slow AZ deliveries) and have thousands more die?  Wait for many more multi-year trials of mixing vaccines that would likely take even longer?  Not an easy call by any stretch of a balanced view point.

Regardless, all anyone can do is blame them for everything. I really don't think they care one bit about any more of the common people dying. Why would or should they? You can guarantee all of them and their families and cronies of elite are all well taken care of with the top vaccines. so what is good for the Elite Gooses is not good for the common peon Ducks.. They are all a bunch of self centered selfish egotistical self titled untouchable primadonnas, but then again so are many leading other countries. In the end they get what they have originally planned for but in reality have also garnered the disapproval dissatisfaction of disgust rating from most all of the people and this they and their next family line of generations can never shrug off.

So of course, they will do something to try and look honest, but in the end all I do hope is it does help to save lives and not be yet another disaster. But then, the lastly of the mixing of vaccines at their will is like a child dressing up and playing policeman or doctor for which they have no right and no qualifications to do at the peoples benefit and not theirs. True leader lead by example and honesty.

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

This is fun to watch the vaxxers turn on the vaxxers now. Good times!!

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

8 minutes ago, BraveNewFahrenheit said:

This is fun to watch the vaxxers turn on the vaxxers now.

Well least those that are vaxxed will be able to fly, eat in restaurants and good chance of going to immigration in the near future. 
Already confirmed requirement for flying domestically.

https://www.thephuketnews.com/digital-health-pass-to-be-required-for-domestic-flights-81338.php

[Bob20]

44 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Dark side ??  Now there is an exaggeration - I could say the same about you for what I see is an insistence to delay while thousands will likely die.

No Monopoly?  Where have you been ? Anyone who has looked at this in any detail will know North America and Western Europe (and a few countries, such as Israel) monopolized on Pfizer and Moderna during the early months when those vaccines came out.   If you don't believe that, then go research it. There have been a number of editorials noting this.

People are not Guinea pigs here. You totally ignore the study(s), hastly done I admit, but that were done (done with knowledge of 'inactivated' virus general history).

You want perfection while people die? So what, lets be perfect and lets let the people die instead? I hope you don't mean that.

In the mean time there are no trials showing the mixing with the 'inactivated virus' is dangerous. Not one.

In fact, the 'inactivated virus' method of development used in Sinovac has been shown for many decades to be very safe, and safe for mixing - yes the "method of development" safe even if different vaccine mixing has been used.   There is no such history for mixing mRNA as those developed vaccines are far too soon.  If you don't believe that, then go back and research the development method and history of mixing.

So while I happen to think Pfizer and Moderna are superior vaccines to Sinovac for non-mixing, ... when it comes to mixing its a totally different kettle of fish wrt the detail of studies needed.

You ARE fear mongering. Your statement about Oxford, without noting their conclusion as to how minimal those side effects were, shows fear mongering.

Disagree. Its very important.  That does not mean it replaces trials to prove safe, but it never-the-less is important for such studies. Your dismissing it out of hand illustrates your strong bias.

These are not unknown risks. Such a general statement again, shows your bias.   

Mixing inactivated vaccines has been common for decades.  Why do you ignore that?  Further, there has been research on mixing, with hundreds of cases.    

If one waits years for MORE results (to those already done), ignoring that (1) its known that inactivated vaccine mixing is nominally safe , and ignoring that (2) resent research with Sinovac/AstraZeneca on hundreds of people has shown to be safe, ... Ignoring such is IMHO a dangerous approach that will result in thousands needless dying in Thailand.

I have more faith in the safety of the Sinovac/AstraZeneca mixing being safe, than I do have a faith in 100m vaccines being on they way anytime 'soon'.

Its not an easy call to make, but I think in this case the Thai government has it right.

You can't have a discussion if you don't read and even misquote.

I didn't say I want to delay, I said I don't want to mix without proper trials.

Funny how you seem to think mRNA is untested and unsafe after billions of jabs with very few problems and huge effectiveness, yet you think a virtually untested mix is okay... That the technology is old, does not say anything about a new product and even less about mixing two new products.

And don't be silly about monopolies. The UK invested heavily in AZ and used it until even with their vested interest they had to concede it was inferior to mRNA. It's simply superior in every way.

For the rest everything you say is based on "it's okay to try because there is a shortage". Except, the government paint a picture of no current shortage if those 100m (even excl. yesterday's Sinovac) are arriving day by day and they are already jabbing to their maximum capacity.

For me this is where the discussion ends, as the population deserves better than "we'll give it a try" with fingers crossed.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

You can't have a discussion if you don't read and even misquote.

Speaking of misquoting - you take the cake ....  Read on (this post)

 

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

I didn't say I want to delay, I said I don't want to mix without proper trials.

There has already been testing done with hundreds of people

How long will those those extra trials take.  Is that not going to cause a further delay ?  

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Funny how you seem to think mRNA is untested and unsafe after billions of jabs with very few problems and huge effectiveness, yet you think a virtually untested mix is okay...

There we go - either a total misquote  or total / deliberate mischaracterisation of my thinking.

Clearly - by your saying that, you are either spinning to prop up a poor argument, or you ignored my statements.  I made it clear many times I think Pfizer and Moderna superior to Sinovac when it comes efficacy - and I would not for 1 second say that they are superior if I thought they were untested nor unsafe.

BUT - and this is obvious to anyone who can count years - they have not been around for many decades.  Inactivated virus vaccines have been around for many decades. There is a HISTORY of no proven long term side effects with such inactivated virus. There have been no HISTORY of long term side effects from mRNA because its IMPOSSIBLE to do such as they have not been around long enough.

That is NOT saying they are unsafe untested like you are trying to "spin" my words into saying.  

 

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

For me this is where the discussion ends, as the population deserves better than "we'll give it a try" with fingers crossed.

You are right - this is where the discussion ends. 

When you can only justify your statements by spinning miss-truths as to what the other says - that IS where the discussion must end.

Enjoy debating this with others - any discussion with me ends  now.

I won't waste time with someone who states I think something when they have no clue as to what I think, and further they deliberately spin/misconstrue what I think and say about testing.

Edited September 9, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

30 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Speaking of misquoting - you take the cake ....  Read on (this post)

There has already been testing done with hundreds of people

How long will those those extra trials take.  Is that not going to cause a further delay ?  

There we go - either a total misquote  or total / deliberate mischaracterisation of my thinking.

Clearly - by your saying that, you are either spinning to prop up a poor argument, or you ignored my statements.  I made it clear many times I think Pfizer and Moderna superior to Sinovac when it comes efficacy - and I would not for 1 second say that they are superior if I thought they were untested nor unsafe.

BUT - and this is obvious to anyone who can count years - they have not been around for many decades.  Inactivated virus vaccines have been around for many decades. There is a HISTORY of no proven long term side effects with such inactivated virus. There have been no HISTORY of long term side effects from mRNA because its IMPOSSIBLE to do such as they have not been around long enough.

That is NOT saying they are unsafe untested like you are trying to "spin" my words into saying.  

You are right - this is where the discussion ends. 

When you can only justify your statements by spinning miss-truths as to what the other says - that IS where the discussion must end.

Enjoy debating this with others - any discussion with me ends  now.

I won't waste time with someone who states I think something when they have no clue as to what I think, and further they deliberately spin/misconstrue what I think and say about testing.

Last one.

Fact: Pfizer is fully approved

(Sinovac and AZ still only for emergency use)

Fact: Mixing S+AZ is not proven effective nor safe and after the first jab with Sinovac, you still have zero protection against delta, which is dominant now.

Fact: AZ is not used in the western world for under 60's anymore because of serious side effects (even yesterday another one was added to the list)

Fact: using an old technology is no guarantee that a new product is of good quality

Now, subjectively, I appreciate your argument that there may be no choice and you want some protection. So say that!! But don't try to justify it with science and research while that's not (yet) available and conveniently forget to mention the facts above.

I was lucky last week that I could get what I wanted. But else, if they eased restrictions and allowed the spread of the virus to our area, I (and plenty more around me) would have gone into self imposed quarantine until Pfizer would be available.

I don't just first pump a useless vaccine in me, to follow it with one that's already not used for my age group anymore because of serious side effects. Not even if there's temporarily nothing else. Then I can protect myself in other ways until the better option arrives.

And if it's not good enough for me, it's not good enough for Thais either.

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

2 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

And if it's not good enough for me, it's not good enough for Thais either.

Hear, Hear!

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Dark side ??  Now there is an exaggeration - I could say the same about you for what I see is an insistence to delay while thousands will likely die.

No Monopoly?  Where have you been ? Anyone who has looked at this in any detail will know North America and Western Europe (and a few countries, such as Israel) monopolized on Pfizer and Moderna during the early months when those vaccines came out.   If you don't believe that, then go research it. There have been a number of editorials noting this.

People are not Guinea pigs here. You totally ignore the study(s), hastly done I admit, but that were done (done with knowledge of 'inactivated' virus general history).

You want perfection while people die? So what, lets be perfect and lets let the people die instead? I hope you don't mean that.

In the mean time there are no trials showing the mixing with the 'inactivated virus' is dangerous. Not one.

In fact, the 'inactivated virus' method of development used in Sinovac has been shown for many decades to be very safe, and safe for mixing - yes the "method of development" safe even if different vaccine mixing has been used.   There is no such history for mixing mRNA as those developed vaccines are far too soon.  If you don't believe that, then go back and research the development method and history of mixing.

So while I happen to think Pfizer and Moderna are superior vaccines to Sinovac for non-mixing, ... when it comes to mixing its a totally different kettle of fish wrt the detail of studies needed.

You ARE fear mongering. Your statement about Oxford, without noting their conclusion as to how minimal those side effects were, shows fear mongering.

Disagree. Its very important.  That does not mean it replaces trials to prove safe, but it never-the-less is important for such studies. Your dismissing it out of hand illustrates your strong bias.

These are not unknown risks. Such a general statement again, shows your bias.   

Mixing inactivated vaccines has been common for decades.  Why do you ignore that?  Further, there has been research on mixing, with hundreds of cases.    

If one waits years for MORE results (to those already done), ignoring that (1) its known that inactivated vaccine mixing is nominally safe , and ignoring that (2) resent research with Sinovac/AstraZeneca on hundreds of people has shown to be safe, ... Ignoring such is IMHO a dangerous approach that will result in thousands needless dying in Thailand.

I have more faith in the safety of the Sinovac/AstraZeneca mixing being safe, than I do have a faith in 100m vaccines being on they way anytime 'soon'.

Its not an easy call to make, but I think in this case the Thai government has it right.

Agree with you, @oldcpu, on the simple basis that anything's PROBABLY better than nothing.

There's no evidence that this does any harm or that it ever has, or that mixing vaccines of this type ever has, and if it saves just a few lives from non-Delta variants then it has to make sense.

There's no indication that 140 million doses of anything, or whatever the latest claim is, will have arrived by the end of the year and every indication that it's just the normal pie in the sky.

It's not a question of Sinovac or something else but Sinovac or nothing.

It's all very well to repeatedly say x / y / z should have been done but it wasn't, as everybody knows, so all the medicos can do is the best with the appalling hand they've been dealt.

The one point I DO disagree with and feel strongly about, though,  and it's not clear yet how it works or not, or if that's correct or not, is that if people choose "nothing" rather Sinovac then they should NOT be penalised and go to the back of the queue for AZ or any other vaccine but they should just stay in line like anyone else. I don't know if that will happen or not, as it isn't yet clear.

In other words, everyone should stay in line for AZ or any other vaccine whenever it comes, but if anyone wants Sinovac as a bonus while they're waiting then they should be able to have it as an OPTION which is available IF they want it.

I can't see any rational or  scientific objections to that.

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

3 hours ago, AdvocatusDiaboli said:

Well least those that are vaxxed will be able to fly, eat in restaurants and good chance of going to immigration in the near future. 
Already confirmed requirement for flying domestically.

https://www.thephuketnews.com/digital-health-pass-to-be-required-for-domestic-flights-81338.php

Cool, hope you enjoy your social credit app that will come next, for your safety ya know, can't have you be saying anything bad about the gov't or other "leaders".

I guess every single protester in Thailand can just roll it all up now and go home. Zero reason to move forward on any kind of political change in this country if you are to be tracked 24/7.

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

4 minutes ago, BraveNewFahrenheit said:

Cool

Exactly! Will enjoy the app. Nothing to hide. Do you?

[Stonker]

7 minutes ago, BraveNewFahrenheit said:

Cool, hope you enjoy your social credit app that will come next, for your safety ya know, can't have you be saying anything bad about the gov't or other "leaders".

I guess every single protester in Thailand can just roll it all up now and go home. Zero reason to move forward on any kind of political change in this country if you are to be tracked 24/7.

You're not just adding two and two and making five, but you're adding two and two and making a plate of pork fried rice.

There's no rational or logical connection, and no reason why one would follow the other (and, of course, no reason why it wouldn't).

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

18 minutes ago, AdvocatusDiaboli said:

Exactly! Will enjoy the app. Nothing to hide. Do you?

You also don't need free speech if you have nothing to say right?

Well it was a good run, the new normal should be a fun time...to think many expats used to come to Thailand to get away from the nanny states they hail from.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Agree with you, @oldcpu, on the simple basis that anything's PROBABLY better than nothing

In hindsight, @oldcpu, that may look as if I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing with @Bob20 when I'm not - I'm disagreeing with both of you.

I'm disagreeing with you as I don't think that getting a dose of Sinovac should be a requirement before getting a dose of AZ - it should be an OPTION, a bonus, nothing more.

... and I'm disagreeing with @Bob20 as he seems to think that the government shouldn't be buying Sinovac at all now (regardless of what they should have done before) even though it's not stopping them buying anything else - again, it should be an OPTION, a bonus, nothing more.

[Bob20]

9 minutes ago, Stonker said:

In hindsight, @oldcpu, that may look as if I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing with @Bob20 when I'm not - I'm disagreeing with both of you.

I'm disagreeing with you as I don't think that getting a dose of Sinovac should be a requirement before getting a dose of AZ - it should be an OPTION, a bonus, nothing more.

... and I'm disagreeing with @Bob20 as he seems to think that the government shouldn't be buying Sinovac at all now (regardless of what they should have done before) even though it's not stopping them buying anything else - again, it should be an OPTION, a bonus, nothing more.

Thanks, I wondered why you initially seemed to disagree. Glad to see the detail.

I see less point in jabbing Sinovac as it doesn't protect at all against delta which is dominant. Yes, less than 20% still consists of other strains, so technically you'd have a tiny bit more protection, but only really starting after the second jab.

In that instance I would prefer to remain careful or to self isolate (if movements increase a lot again) until I could get another vaccine, rather than put Sinovac in my body. Not too happy even with AZ, as that was pulled in Europe too, but (ignoring the side effects in especially under 60's) at least that's more effective.

As I concluded, these decisions are taken because of delays and shortages. Not because it's all such a great science and research based plan as @oldcpu claimed.