News Forum - CCSA Covid-19 plan: domestic vaccines, “learning to live with it”

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 1:46 AM, Griff1315 said:

I have not seen any figures on people dying from being asked to stay at home.

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That's because all the research is being done by people who benefit from the vaccine.

Just look around you to see the devastation and misery that is all around us

This carnage is going to be the legacy of the vaccine-only-lockdown-forever supporters 

[Griff1315]

  On 8/30/2021 at 1:51 AM, AdamX said:

That's because all the research is being done by people who benefit from the vaccine.

Just look around you to see the devastation and misery that is all around us

This carnage is going to be the legacy of the vaccine-only-lockdown-forever supporters 

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Try taking a look in the hospitals trying to deal with the victims of Covid people dying simply because they cannot get enough oxygen into their body.

I don't want to see lockdowns I want to see more vaccines and good vaccines available for all the people of Thailand.

I wish the country could open up quickly but not at the expense of the elderly and more vulnerable to this virus. 

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 2:07 AM, Griff1315 said:

Try taking a look in the hospitals trying to deal with the victims of Covid people dying simply because they cannot get enough oxygen into their body.

I don't want to see lockdowns I want to see more vaccines and good vaccines available for all the people of Thailand.

I wish the country could open up quickly but not at the expense of the elderly and more vulnerable to this virus. 

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And I completely agree that there are people dying.

I know of two elderly people who ended up with lung infections, but I know of dozens that were simply 'incarcerated' for two weeks with no symptoms and no exit testing.

Those medical resources could have been used better to treat people who are truly sick. 

On your final point, no one wants death, but given that the mortality rate is around 1% mainly in the elderly, do we want to destroy millions of livelihoods and lives in pursuit of a noble ideal that we have never applied for other diseases in the history of the world.

Edited August 30, 2021 by AdamX
fixed typo

[remo940]

So Learning to live with it means fully vaccinated  foreigners and Thai will no longer need the COE ?  Because without that obstacle removed no meaningful numbers of people will land at Suvarnabhumi. 

[Griff1315]

  On 8/30/2021 at 2:13 AM, AdamX said:

And I completely agree that there are people dying.

I know of two elderly people who ended up with lung infections, but I know of dozens that were simply 'incarcerated' for two weeks with no symptoms and no exit testing.

Those medical resources could have been used better to treat people who are truly sick. 

On your final point, no one wants death, but given that the mortality rate is around 1% mainly in the elderly, do we want to destroy millions of livelihoods and lives in pursuit of a noble ideal that we have never applied for other diseases in the history of the world.

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Try asking that of the sons and daughters who have lost parents and grandparents to Covid

The elderly of our nations deserve all the protection we can give them.

I agree that the world has suffered terribly with lockdown after lockdown with no real signs of an end to it except for the ones that have invested heavily in vaccines.

Thailand has gone from close to the top now nearly at the bottom of how countries have dealt with Covid. Now all we get are promises of vaccines coming soon.

We all know where the blame lies for the fall of Thailand and the devastating lockdowns.

[AlexPTY]

First reasonably smart thing from them in ages 

[harry1]

learning to live with incompetency is more factual

[Stonker]

  On 8/30/2021 at 2:13 AM, AdamX said:

Those medical resources could have been used better to treat people who are truly sick. 

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How?

If it wasn't for Covid those medical resources (field hospitals and quarantine centres) wouldn't exist.

  On 8/30/2021 at 2:13 AM, AdamX said:

... no one wants death, but given that the mortality rate is around 1% mainly in the elderly, do we want to destroy millions of livelihoods and lives in pursuit of a noble ideal ...(snip)

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You're overlooking a number of factors, including that "death" is far from the only problem with Covid, and that the numbers are only so low due to the restrictions and hospitalisations - take those away and numbers will go up.  It's like saying that a rabid dog's safe because no-one's died or been bitten while it's been caged and the cage is in the way so we should release the dog.

  On 8/30/2021 at 2:13 AM, AdamX said:

... a noble ideal that we have never applied for other diseases in the history of the world.

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I suggest you need to study "the history of the world" a bit more.

[Thaired]

"Learning to live with it" appears to discriminate against people who are not vaccinated, which is wholly wrong and obscene! It should not be so deliberately divisive, because after all, the vaccinated, believing the experimental vaccine they have either chosen or been forced to take, is so safe and effective, surely have nothing to fear from those who are not vaccinated? In any case, in a country where over twice as many more people die from HIV/AIDS, and over six times more people still die from flu than covid, it still bemuses me why the lockdowns, restrictions, forced closures, curfews and bans are being digested and in many cases supported by people for this virus, but nothing has ever been locked down for the other, far more lethal ones! No divisive, discriminatory rules imposed for flu, but still people accepting all this nonsense for covid!

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:42 AM, Stonker said:

How?

If it wasn't for Covid those medical resources (field hospitals and quarantine centres) wouldn't exist.

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If you cant see that resources that are being used to deal with covid would not be available to help with other medical problems, then we have a disagreement on basic arithmetic

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:42 AM, Stonker said:

You're overlooking a number of factors, including that "death" is far from the only problem with Covid, and that the numbers are only so low due to the restrictions and hospitalisations - take those away and numbers will go up.   

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What metrics do you use to measure the effectiveness of restrictions? There are none, and there is no scientific evidence that partial lockdowns work.

OTHO, the data to show the damage caused by restrictions is out there. Unemployment, GDP, Homeless, Social Issues...... 

[Stonker]

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:47 AM, AdamX said:

If you cant see that resources that are being used to deal with covid would not be available to help with other medical problems, then we have a disagreement on basic arithmetic

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Indeed we do - those resources are only available for a limited time and at the expense of those providing them.

It's robbing Peter to pay Paul, as they're medical resources that are usually used elsewhere but the staff are over-stretched by doing both jobs - for example, locally, physiotherapists also being nurses in the quarantine facility.

The idea that they could be "available to help with other medical problems" under normal circumstances is so naive it almost defies belief.

Almost.

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:51 AM, AdamX said:

What metrics do you use to measure the effectiveness of restrictions? 

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There are plenty of very easily quantifiable and verifiable metrics, including deaths, cases (measured consistently), hospitalisations, lost production, and time off work sick.

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:51 AM, AdamX said:

There are none ...

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See above.

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:51 AM, AdamX said:

... there is no scientific evidence that partial lockdowns work.

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Nobody here has suggested they do - rather the polar opposite, that they very much don't.

  On 8/30/2021 at 6:51 AM, AdamX said:

OTHO, the data to show the damage caused by restrictions is out there. Unemployment, GDP, Homeless, Social Issues...... 

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The data showing the damage caused by not locking down and not having restrictions is also out there and has been given here countless times by countless posters.  

I'm not going to waste my time and to de-rail yet another thread by going over the exact same ground over and over again as it's just become tedious.

[Jason]

Elimination of this virus seems impossible. Interesting that the Spanish Flu, just fizzled out. Maybe Covid will too! Particularly if has nowhere to run to!

[Fluke]

  On 8/30/2021 at 8:50 AM, Jason said:

Elimination of this virus seems impossible. Interesting that the Spanish Flu, just fizzled out. Maybe Covid will too! Particularly if has nowhere to run to!

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Although the Spanish flu did "fizzle out" after in infected 1/3 rd of the Worlds population and 50 million deaths

[Bob20]

  On 8/30/2021 at 8:50 AM, Jason said:

Elimination of this virus seems impossible. Interesting that the Spanish Flu, just fizzled out. Maybe Covid will too! Particularly if has nowhere to run to!

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Well, to give it nowhere to run is part of the idea of a lockdown...

But soon it will have lots of places to run to, catching a ride with anyone driving/flying to areas with low numbers and low protection!

[Soidog]

  On 8/30/2021 at 1:24 AM, AdamX said:

But more are dying from the lockdowns. 

Seems like the cure is worse than the disease

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Comparing apples and pears I’m afraid. More are possibly dying from the lockdown than from Covid (no proof but I’ll ignore that).. but without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid. Why is this so difficult to understand when people make these statements.  Here’s a few more:

Driving slow kills more people than driving fast. Let’s increase speed limits to 200kph.

Wearing seat belts kills more people than they save. Let’s stop wearing seat belts.  

More people are killed replacing worn tyres on cars than bald tyres do. stop replacing worn out tyres. 
 

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 7:19 AM, Stonker said:

I'm not going to waste my time and to de-rail yet another thread by going over the exact same ground over and over again as it's just become tedious.

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And this is something we can agree on.

[mcambl61]

  On 8/30/2021 at 9:32 AM, Soidog said:

Comparing apples and pears I’m afraid. More are possibly dying from the lockdown than from Covid (no proof but I’ll ignore that).. but without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid. Why is this so difficult to understand when people make these statements.  Here’s a few more:

Driving slow kills more people than driving fast. Let’s increase speed limits to 200kph.

Wearing seat belts kills more people than they save. Let’s stop wearing seat belts.  

More people are killed replacing worn tyres on cars than bald tyres do. stop replacing worn out tyres. 
 

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You have absolutely no proof or logical evidence that "without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid" 

That is just insane. 

We know the fatality rate, we know the most vulnerable groups of people who need to be vaccinated. 

Stop the ridiculous overreaction and fear mongering and economy crushing lockdowns immediately. 

This tyranny has been tolerated long enough. 

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 9:32 AM, Soidog said:

Comparing apples and pears I’m afraid. More are possibly dying from the lockdown than from Covid (no proof but I’ll ignore that).. but without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid. Why is this so difficult to understand when people make these statements.  Here’s a few more:

Driving slow kills more people than driving fast. Let’s increase speed limits to 200kph.

Wearing seat belts kills more people than they save. Let’s stop wearing seat belts.  

More people are killed replacing worn tyres on cars than bald tyres do. stop replacing worn out tyres. 
 

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The part you are missing is the cost benefit analysis, as you only look at one side of the argument.

All the example you mention do not cause collapse of GDP, increase in unemployment and the other damage that is a result of lockdown.

There is a huge price to pay with lockdown which is the part the lockdown supporters are not willing to see.

[Stonker]

  On 8/30/2021 at 12:49 PM, mcambl61 said:

We know the fatality rate, we know the most vulnerable groups of people who need to be vaccinated.  

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Well, yes, we do ..... but unfortunately they haven't been vaccinated.

Maybe you didn't notice.

[Stonker]

  On 8/30/2021 at 12:58 PM, AdamX said:

All the example you mention do not cause collapse of GDP, increase in unemployment and the other damage that is a result of lockdown.

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Actually, they do - except unemployment, but even that's arguable.

[AdamX]

  On 8/30/2021 at 1:21 PM, Stonker said:

Actually, they do - except unemployment, but even that's arguable.

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So driving at 30mph vs 20mph lowers GDP?

And a 3mm tyre depth vs 2mm depth lowers GDP?

Or no seat belt vs seat belt lowers GDP?

Anyone proposing these comparisons to lockdowns is not after a genuine debate

Edited August 30, 2021 by AdamX

[Bob20]

  On 8/30/2021 at 12:49 PM, mcambl61 said:

You have absolutely no proof or logical evidence that "without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid" 

That is just insane. 

We know the fatality rate, we know the most vulnerable groups of people who need to be vaccinated. 

Stop the ridiculous overreaction and fear mongering and economy crushing lockdowns immediately. 

This tyranny has been tolerated long enough. 

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Weren't you the one telling others not to decide what to think or say?

Maybe take a leaf out of your own book...

[Soidog]

  On 8/30/2021 at 12:58 PM, AdamX said:

The part you are missing is the cost benefit analysis, as you only look at one side of the argument.

All the example you mention do not cause collapse of GDP, increase in unemployment and the other damage that is a result of lockdown.

There is a huge price to pay with lockdown which is the part the lockdown supporters are not willing to see.

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Happy to do a cost benefit analysis if you can tell me the cost of a human life? $100? $1,000?  And does that cost change if it’s your wife or your own life? 
 

What is the cost of a whole car factory closing for a month as a result of key workers being off sick with Covid? 
 

The fact is that nearly ALL governments have tried to find a suitable balance. Holding things back as best they can until quality vaccines arrive. 

[Soidog]

  On 8/30/2021 at 12:49 PM, mcambl61 said:

You have absolutely no proof or logical evidence that "without the lockdown 20 times more people would by dying of Covid" 

That is just insane. 

We know the fatality rate, we know the most vulnerable groups of people who need to be vaccinated. 

Stop the ridiculous overreaction and fear mongering and economy crushing lockdowns immediately. 

This tyranny has been tolerated long enough. 

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No more evidence than you do that it wouldn’t. It’s not tyranny. It’s sensible Pandemic management.