Yellow House book and Thai ID Card for Expats

[AussieBob]

9 minutes ago, Faz said:

Same fiasco Thais have to endure, they're just used to the antiquated system.
 

Because the current system is also used to provide a running census of Thai population, hence you can only be registered in one book at any time.

That sounds right - there are far more than 10 million people in Bangkok.  The area is bigger than New Delhi and that city (allegedly) has 31 million.  

[Faz]

12 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

In so many ways the Thailand bureaucracy is broken - that is yet another one.  

Did it ever work in order to break.
Thais accept the system as it is, they haven't known any difference.
They are far more blaise, unruffled and accepting of the systems in place even when given the run around.
As foreigners we tend to make comparisons between the differences we know/knew and the antiquated Thai way, which leaves us frustrated.

[AussieBob]

28 minutes ago, Faz said:

The pink ID card issued to foreign migrants is actually a Health Insurance card which they can purchase that also serves as ID. Example and explanation here; https://www.bangkokpost.com/print/418173/ 

They give those workers health cards obviously to encourage them to be legal - but can they get them without being legal? Do they first have to have a valid Visa and a Work Permit? 

[AussieBob]

Just now, Faz said:

Did it ever work in order to break.
Thais accept the system as it is, they haven't known any difference.
They are far more blaise, unruffled and accepting of the systems in place even when given the run around.
As foreigners we tend to make comparisons between the differences we know/knew and the antiquated Thai way, which leaves us frustrated.

Yes and No Faz.  Yes about when one has to deal with them on many matters - but I still prefer them to the mainly arrogant rude and 'protected' public servants that I have to deal with here.  No in that I am comparing the Thailand Expat ID 'system' with what is on offer in other SEAsia countries that 'compete' with Thailand for the long-term Expat 'market' (retired, working, married). 

[gummy]

1 minute ago, AussieBob said:

That sounds right - there are far more than 10 million people in Bangkok.  The area is bigger than New Delhi and that city (allegedly) has 31 million.  

The Tabian Baan also plays into the hands of those attempting to disenfranchise the poor, whom in their millions are forced to leave their own provinces and hence their address at which they are registered to work far away. So come election time, when they have to pay to travel back home, hundreds of kilometers, for just one day, because you can only vote in the area where you are registered, guess what happens ? So under the 1997 with respect to voting it say this;   The person who fails to vote without notifying the appropriate cause of the inability to attend the election shall lose his or her right to vote as provided by law.     

A corrupt undemocratic win win situation for this government

[Faz]

For Lao, Cambodian and Myanmar migrants they can enter under existing bilateral agreements without a Visa, but should obtain the pink ID card, which also has a work permit on the reverse side.
How many are legal and non legal and working is a different question.

Explanation of requirements here;
Migrant Workers of Three Nationalities Under Exemption Criteria Following Cabinet’s Resolution Can Register Online Starting Today – Ministry of Labour (mol.go.th)

[AussieBob]

15 minutes ago, gummy said:

The Tabian Baan also plays into the hands of those attempting to disenfranchise the poor, whom in their millions are forced to leave their own provinces and hence their address at which they are registered to work far away. So come election time, when they have to pay to travel back home, hundreds of kilometers, for just one day, because you can only vote in the area where you are registered, guess what happens ? So under the 1997 with respect to voting it say this;   The person who fails to vote without notifying the appropriate cause of the inability to attend the election shall lose his or her right to vote as provided by law.     

A corrupt undemocratic win win situation for this government

Mate - I never thought of that before.  Wow.  Of course it makes sense. Disenfranchising the largest part of the population by making Bangkok the main City for Production and Manufacturing, and then disallowing them to vote because they live/work in another Province.  Clever bastards. 

[Faz]

15 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

No in that I am comparing the Thailand Expat ID 'system' with what is on offer in other SEAsia countries that 'compete' with Thailand for the long-term Expat 'market' (retired, working, married). 

Thailand hasn't foreseen that issue and is unlikely to do so until the shit hits them square in the face.

The government never actually takes responsibility on itself, always passing responsibilities onto Provincial levels. Only when collectively Provinces start to complain about an issue are the government likely to realise and act. The government are very good at throwing banana skins and pointing fingers at others.

I doubt anything will change in our lifetime.

[Faz]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Mate - I never thought of that before.  Wow.  Of course it makes sense. Disenfranchising the largest part of the population by making Bangkok the main City for Production and Manufacturing, and then disallowing them to vote because they live/work in another Province.  Clever bastards. 

Same with the 20 baht public health system, only available at the local government hospital where your registered as living ........... not where you may be actually staying for work.

[AussieBob]

14 minutes ago, Faz said:

For Lao, Cambodian and Myanmar migrants they can enter under existing bilateral agreements without a Visa, but should obtain the pink ID card, which also has a work permit on the reverse side.
How many are legal and non legal and working is a different question.

Explanation of requirements here;
Migrant Workers of Three Nationalities Under Exemption Criteria Following Cabinet’s Resolution Can Register Online Starting Today – Ministry of Labour (mol.go.th)

Thanks Faz - that is really good info.  Mate, I am learning more today about Thailand than I have in years, basically ever since leaving there (temporarily I hope).  No wonder the Pink ID Card is ignored by so many organisations and official people in Thailand. 

Is it just me being a conspiracy theorist, or does it seem to toehrs as well that the authorities have made it far too easy for Employers to 'import' illegal workers - they obviously didnt 'police the borders' pre-Covid and they even give them health access ID cards.

[AussieBob]

12 minutes ago, Faz said:

Thailand hasn't foreseen that issue and is unlikely to do so until the shit hits them square in the face.

The government never actually takes responsibility on itself, always passing responsibilities onto Provincial levels. Only when collectively Provinces start to complain about an issue are the government likely to realise and act. The government are very good at throwing banana skins and pointing fingers at others.

I doubt anything will change in our lifetime.

Maybe - maybe not.  In the face of Provinces demanding some income from tourists they did change the rules so Phuket could receive some of them.  Post Covid there will be some shit hitting Thailand when/if they finally realise what they have lost by not encouraging Expats, like the other countries have done. China has made it very clear that they will not be 'allowing' mass tourism for quite some time, even after the Covid pandemic rules are eased by other countries. This will lead to an examination (maybe) of what other sources of income they can get - and the Expat market is the one they are missing out on.

There are an estimated 7-10 million USA citizens who have decided to live overseas. When you add all the others from Europe and include those from Aust/NZ and Japan and Korea - the number is probably upwards of 15-20 million.  Obviously the number one reason they do this is because it is cheaper - but if it was only about the cheapest then India would be number 1.  But many other factors come into it, including health services etc. - but a big one is what Expat Visa packages are on offer.  I have been looking since 2010 and in 2019 for the first time I noticed that Thailand was not always in the list of preferred locations on some websites.  Now it is even less - most sites I searched recently did not have them listed in top 5. The façade of Thailand slipped with the Junta taking over, and has been slipping more ever since the 2019 election when effectively the Junta stayed as a political party. 

[Faz]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

I think with the interpretation matter, many locals decide that they can interpret things that they actually cannot - and nothing that a farang can say will change their mind - officialdom in Thailand is difficult to move as you have pointed out in other posts.

I put it down to lack of education and general lack of knowledge of how the rest of the world functions rather than misinterpretation. I'll give a classic example.

When a foreigner applies for a 1 year extension of stay based on Thai spouse, Immigration request an updated Kor Ror 2 (registration of marriage). The original registration is on the database and the Amphoe merely supply a printed copy of the information held on the database.

I've know foreigners who applied for a Yellow TB and ID card and requested to provide evidence of their Mother and Fathers names to enter in the book.
The TB lists the names of the Mother and Father of the registered person.
Now in the UK an original birth certificate doesn't contain that information, but you can request a copy of birth registration and that birth certificate does contain full details of the parents.
However when presented to an Amphoe as evidence of the parents names, it's refused, as it's a copy of the birth registration and they will only accept the original ..... which is on a database.

The irony being they do exactly the same to produce the Kor Ror 2, a copy from a database.

[Faz]

20 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

I have been looking since 2010 and in 2019 for the first time I noticed that Thailand was not always in the list of preferred locations on some websites.  Now it is even less - most sites I searched recently did not have them listed in top 5. The façade of Thailand slipped with the Junta taking over, and has been slipping more ever since the 2019 election when effectively the Junta stayed as a political party. 

For tourism or retirement?

Tourism world wide, no, tourism in Asia- Pacific, Thailand still ranks highly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

Retirement, no as Thailand doesn't offer any kind of Visa for 'settlement' in Thailand.

It prefers to offer easy entry to short term tourists looking for a good time and spending lots of $$$$$$ over a few weeks. 

[Bluesofa]

52 minutes ago, Faz said:

Same with the 20 baht public health system, only available at the local government hospital where your registered as living ........... not where you may be actually staying for work.

I wonder if they have a something where if you use the system outside your registered area, you pay but can claim it back at a later date?
I remember doing that before when I was paying in to the social security system with a work permit.

[KaptainRob]

4 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I wonder if they have a something where if you use the system outside your registered area, you pay but can claim it back at a later date?
I remember doing that before when I was paying in to the social security system with a work permit.

Thai's can obtain emergency treatment outside their home province and should then transfer 'home' for any ongoing free care.  FIL had a 75km transfer by ambulance in exactly that scenario.

[MrStretch]

2 hours ago, Faz said:

That's some form of Immigration status.

The Yellow house book and Thai ID card for foreigners has nothing to do with Immigration or Immigration status in Thailand.

I didn't say it did.  I said it was an example of an ID for a foreigner in another country.

The example given, that I on a Non-O (Spouse) could have an ID card that reflected my legal status to stay in the country is what we're talking about.

[Faz]

7 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I wonder if they have a something where if you use the system outside your registered area, you pay but can claim it back at a later date?

Not as far as I'm aware.
The MIL is still registered as living at a now vacant family owned property back in her old village.
She has medical issues and frequent check ups at the local government hospital, but isn't entitled to paying under the 20 baht scheme, although it's not expensive anyway.

If for any reason I have to visit the local hospital to see a doctor, I'm never charged more than 50 baht for a consultation. I had a minor operation a couple of years ago and had to visit as an outpatient daily for 10 days to clean and change dressings. Each visit including cleaning and new dressings I was charged 60 baht.

[Bluesofa]

36 minutes ago, Faz said:

I put it down to lack of education and general lack of knowledge of how the rest of the world functions rather than misinterpretation. I'll give a classic example.

When a foreigner applies for a 1 year extension of stay based on Thai spouse, Immigration request an updated Kor Ror 2 (registration of marriage). The original registration is on the database and the Amphoe merely supply a printed copy of the information held on the database.

If you were divorced, does that mean the names disappear from that marriage list database? I don't know but I wouldn't have thought so. Or is there some 'not valid' marker on it somewhere?
Otherwise you could be divorced and still get the KR2 printed.
They only thing you gain is the system prints the current date in words at the bottom of the page each time.

[Faz]

4 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

The example given, that I on a Non-O (Spouse) could have an ID card that reflected my legal status to stay in the country is what we're talking about.

The Thai ID card for foreigners isn't in anyway a reflection of your legal status in Thailand.

Your legal status to stay in Thailand is stamped in your Passport - temporary for 1 year.
Thailand simply doesn't accommodate or offer any kind of permanent 'settlement' status for foreigners, married or otherwise, unless you obtain Thai citizenship.

I understand perfectly what you mean, but it just isn't going to happen in Thailand because their Immigration policy just doesn't allow it. From an Immigration standpoint you nor I will never be classed as a resident of Thailand and will never be issued an ID card depicting our legal status because they don't exist and never will unless Thailand completely overhauled their Immigration laws.

[Bluesofa]

17 minutes ago, Transam said:

The head guy signs and dates the KR2 confirming you are still married on that day. So I reckon if you get divorced, the records are updated to show you are. Plus, when you get divorced you must hand in the KR3, in return they give you a similar fancy one, stating the divorce, I think that is a KR7... 

You must return the KR3? You get one each, if you lost one or both does that mean you can't get divorced - ha ha!

[Faz]

1 hour ago, Bluesofa said:

If you were divorced, does that mean the names disappear from that marriage list database? I don't know but I wouldn't have thought so.

If you divorced then that would be recorded on the database and you couldn't get a Kor Ror 2.

It's not dissimilar to the registrar of births, marriage and deaths databases you'd find in most other Countries. 

[Faz]

1 hour ago, Bluesofa said:

I wonder if they have a something where if you use the system outside your registered area, you pay but can claim it back at a later date?
I remember doing that before when I was paying in to the social security system with a work permit.

 

1 hour ago, KaptainRob said:

Thai's can obtain emergency treatment outside their home province and should then transfer 'home' for any ongoing free care.  FIL had a 75km transfer by ambulance in exactly that scenario.

I'll add that if your own local government hospital where your registered doesn't have the facilities available to treat you, they can request a transfer to another government hospital that can and you'll still be treated under the same universal health scheme.

[Faz]

33 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

You must return the KR3? You get one each, if you lost one or both does that mean you can't get divorced - ha ha!

You should get a marriage certificate each (KR3) and a registration of the marriage each (KR2).
If you married overseas then register the foreign marriage with an Amphoe, then that registration certificate is a Kor Ror 22 - denotes foreign registered marriage.

Marriage certificates cannot be replaced.

[Bluesofa]

46 minutes ago, Faz said:

If you divorced then that would be recorded on the database and you couldn't get a Kor Ror 2.

It's not dissimilar to the registrar of births, marriage and deaths databases you'd find in most other Countries. 

Fair enough you couldn't get a KR2.
I can only compare it to the UK, where the General Register Office allows you to obtain any records of births marriages and deaths. They won't tell you if someone is still married or not unless you specifically check the records to see if a divorce had been registered.

[Faz]

16 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

They won't tell you if someone is still married or not unless you specifically check the records to see if a divorce had been registered.

Same, same, the Amphoe check the database for a record of divorce.
No record of divorce, they'll issue a KR2.
The fact they issue it basically informs Immigration that since marriage they have no record of divorce, therefore the assumption is that your still legally married and can apply for an extension based on marriage.

To be more precise they check the database for marital status.