Yellow House book and Thai ID Card for Expats

[Bluesofa]

17 minutes ago, Faz said:

The whole concept of foreigners registering as a civilian under the Civil Registration Act to obtain a Tabien Baan and ID card is that they can be used as proof of ID and address in Thailand in exactly the same way a Thai would. (With exceptions). This relies on all government offices/departments being aware of the concept and that's where it falls down, due to lack of communication and understanding.

Agreed with Faz, especially the last sentence.
Now this isn't an anti-Thai rant, but:  Can you ever imagine someone in any department wanting to admit to a ferang that they don't know the answer, and need to check?

It needs persistence (and not throwing money at them). This is where luck throws its hand in. It can also depend on who you ask, what they had for lunch and whether they had an argument with their better half before coming to work.

Slight side-track: Apart from the initial refusal for a YHB I mentioned in an earlier post, the first time I tried to open my latest bank account three years ago, I was refused.
Went into a branch of SCB in Udon with my wife (I already had an account at another Udon SCB branch). The branch we went into mentioned new rules: They had to email my details to head office in BKK to be checked first.
I said OK, I'd give them my details and sit and wait for the reply.  We were told, Oh no, it takes them a week to reply to the email.
I was so irritated that I lied and said that Kasikorn Bank had already told me I could open an account there, I'd take my three million Baht and deposit it with them. ( I don't even have a million Baht)

Five minutes later we went to Kasikorn Bank who asked my for my work permit. Told them I'd cancelled it a few years ago. Sorry, no WP, no bank account - new rules.

Next we drove to another Udon SCB branch. First question: Are you both married?
Yes.
The girl needed to see a copy of our marriage certificate and my YTB. Told her I had a copy of them on my phone. She had a look at them and asked if I could email them to her, in order to print out a copy. She gave me her bank email address. Five minutes later she had printed them out and opened a bank account for me.

This last girl obviously hadn't argued with her boyfriend and must have had a good lunch break.

 

[MrStretch]

I have the Yellow Book, but they wouldn't process a pink card, at the time.  Something to do with the government's changing position on illegal workers from Myanmar being "legalised".

I know what kind of card you want, though.  They issue them in Malaysia.  I got this one the last time I worked there:

Any time I needed ID, I would just whip this thing out.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

When I obtained my first TB and ID card, I was single and lived in rented accommodation. The landlady came with me and signed a consent form to use her address. They required a translation of my Passport, which I did myself and was accepted. Since then and the biggest inconvenience is that most Amphoes now request a certified Embassy copy of your Passport, translated and both legalised by the Consular section of the MFA - then there could be the question of the proof and translation of your parents name!

Was there no requirement for an 'official' translation when you did it?

When I did mine I used a local office in Udon, that taught Thai and English. They used a company letterhead and their company stamp, which was accepted.

I translated it into Thai script myself and gave it to the office who certified it, telling them that was how I want it spelt.
I the past I had my Engrish name transliterated into Thai by Thais who have never heard of my first or last name (not really unusual, but not too common). That's not their fault really, so they just guess.

[Faz]

33 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Unfortunately, as you know, there is a huge gap between what is the actual laws/rules and how they are interpreted in all the various parts of Thailand.  I can guarantee you that for everything you have been successful in using, others have been rejected in other parts of Thailand.

There is no interpretation issue. The issue is the government make a law, which is understood by all government offices. Thailand has layers of administration and Provinces are like autonomous regions.
It's the administration division of each Province that sets the requirements to comply with the law, hence such a variation of procedures and documents requested.

I hear you Bob, but it isn't going to change unless they restructure their whole administration procedures.
Most foreigners are only permitted to temporary stay in Thailand one year or less at a time, so they're not going to change the structure to accommodate 'temporary' foreigners.

Even foreigners with PR status doesn't offer the same conditions you may expect of PR status in another Country - take your wife in Australia as an example. Whilst obtaining PR status in Thailand means you no longer have to submit 90 day reports, they still have to apply for re-entry permits to re-enter the Country to keep their permission of stay valid. 
Thailand is essentially a tourist destination for foreigner, whilst making concessions with requirements for those who wish to retire or have Thai family/Spouse to temporary stay. Only by obtaining Thai citizenship can the restrictive shackles be removed and the vast majority of foreigners will never qualify to apply for Thai citizenship anyway.

What you suggest would require a democratically elected Government making sweeping reforms on the laws concerning foreigners - who in the majority of cases are regarded as only long term tourists.
Foreigners are welcome only to spend there hard earned savings and pensions. Fall foul of the financial requirements and your not welcome to stay anymore.

[Faz]

7 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

Was there no requirement for an 'official' translation when you did it?

No, the boss at my Provincial Amphoe merely requested a translation of my Passport.
I designed a page set up exactly as portrayed in my Passport page , even affixing a Passport size photo to replicate the photo/details page.

He retired a couple of months later, then they started requesting official translations of one's Passport with the translators name, address and contact details. A couple of years ago the requirements changed again, now requesting a 'certified' Embassy copy of your Passport ID page, then officially translated and both documents legalised by the Consular section of the MFA.

The latter is now the requirement at most Amphoes throughout Thailand.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Chaimai said:

Go try that in Prakhonchai...the poo yai tessaban does not like Farangs and makes life difficult. Marriage was a prerequisite, then he would CONSIDER an ID card.

Hence printing out the regulations that all house registration departments have to adhere to.
When my wife phone head office (BORA) in Bangkok they told her if the local amphur refused to process the application, to call them back and they would speak to the official in the amphur.

Plus The Office of the Ombudsman is where to complain to about government offices. Once they know that you know, there is no way to refuse.

I read a post a few years ago by a guy living in Banglamung, Chonburi. The amphur there refused to do his YTB. He called the The Office of the Ombudsman.
The guy said within 24 hours he had a phone call from the very official who kept refusing his application, telling him to go in the next day and it would be processed. It was too.

It does need persistence.

 

[Faz]

46 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

It needs persistence (and not throwing money at them). This is where luck throws its hand in. It can also depend on who you ask, what they had for lunch and whether they had an argument with their better half before coming to work.

Slight side-track: Apart from the initial refusal for a YHB I mentioned in an earlier post, the first time I tried to open my latest bank account three years ago, I was refused.
Went into a branch of SCB in Udon with my wife (I already had an account at another Udon SCB branch). The branch we went into mentioned new rules: They had to email my details to head office in BKK to be checked first.
I said OK, I'd give them my details and sit and wait for the reply.  We were told, Oh no, it takes them a week to reply to the email.
I was so irritated that I lied and said that Kasikorn Bank had already told me I could open an account there, I'd take my three million Baht and deposit it with them. ( I don't even have a million Baht)

Five minutes later we went to Kasikorn Bank who asked my for my work permit. Told them I'd cancelled it a few years ago. Sorry, no WP, no bank account - new rules.

'Face', a big obstacle in the Thai culture.
'No can do', quite often means 'I don't know', but to ask a superior or another colleague for advice causes embarrassment and loss of face. As you state, rather than argue the point, better to move on, find another representative with more knowledge.

Another day, another time, another person ... different outcome.

[Faz]

58 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

I have the Yellow Book, but they wouldn't process a pink card, at the time.  Something to do with the government's changing position on illegal workers from Myanmar being "legalised".

I know what kind of card you want, though.  They issue them in Malaysia.  I got this one the last time I worked there:

Any time I needed ID, I would just whip this thing out.

That's some form of Immigration status.

The Yellow house book and Thai ID card for foreigners has nothing to do with Immigration or Immigration status in Thailand.

[AussieBob]

32 minutes ago, Faz said:

There is no interpretation issue. The issue is the government make a law, which is understood by all government offices. Thailand has layers of administration and Provinces are like autonomous regions.
It's the administration division of each Province that sets the requirements to comply with the law, hence such a variation of procedures and documents requested.

I hear you Bob, but it isn't going to change unless they restructure their whole administration procedures.
Most foreigners are only permitted to temporary stay in Thailand one year or less at a time, so they're not going to change the structure to accommodate 'temporary' foreigners.

Even foreigners with PR status doesn't offer the same conditions you may expect of PR status in another Country - take your wife in Australia as an example. Whilst obtaining PR status in Thailand means you no longer have to submit 90 day reports, they still have to apply for re-entry permits to re-enter the Country to keep their permission of stay valid. 
Thailand is essentially a tourist destination for foreigner, whilst making concessions with requirements for those who wish to retire or have Thai family/Spouse to temporary stay. Only by obtaining Thai citizenship can the restrictive shackles be removed and the vast majority of foreigners will never qualify to apply for Thai citizenship anyway.

What you suggest would require a democratically elected Government making sweeping reforms on the laws concerning foreigners - who in the majority of cases are regarded as only long term tourists.
Foreigners are welcome only to spend there hard earned savings and pensions. Fall foul of the financial requirements and your not welcome to stay anymore.

I think with the interpretation matter, many locals decide that they can interpret things that they actually cannot - and nothing that a farang can say will change their mind - officialdom in Thailand is difficult to move as you have pointed out in other posts.

Those other countries I previously mentioned all used to have laws and rules that were as you said about Thailand:  "Thailand is essentially a tourist destination for foreigner, whilst making concessions with requirements for those who wish to retire or have Thai family/Spouse to temporary stay."

Yes it will require a democratically elected Govt (non-Junta), and yes it will take time, but yes it can happen and IMO it will eventually happen. It will change when a future Thai Govt realises the billions of Baht being lost (1 Million Baht a year for 10-20 years for each Expat), because their Expat Visa rules and treatment have forced many to leave, and most new ones to SEAsia are choosing those other countries instead of Thailand because of their Visa Programs (and all the incentives). 

[thai3]

Get tax card that has a Thai ID number same as on pink card or Thai card, takes minutes to get at local tax office

[AussieBob]

1 hour ago, MrStretch said:

I have the Yellow Book, but they wouldn't process a pink card, at the time.  Something to do with the government's changing position on illegal workers from Myanmar being "legalised".

I know what kind of card you want, though.  They issue them in Malaysia.  I got this one the last time I worked there:

Any time I needed ID, I would just whip this thing out.

Yep - that is the type I mean. They have them in all those other countries I mentioned (maybe not so much in Philippines). They are accepted by all Govt Agencies and Departments in those countries - because they have to accept them.  Those countries, especially Malaysia, addressed the 'problems' their immigration laws and rules (and employees) were causing, and they decided to attract 'quality' Expats by implementing Expat Visa  Programs - and they have been and are extremely successful.  Thailand's answer was the Thai Visa Elite debacle - way too expensive and no real incentives - graft and ignorance and xenophobia are the main reasons they have so far refused to change.  But change they will eventually - because they will have to change, not because they want to.

 

[AussieBob]

4 minutes ago, thai3 said:

Get tax card that has a Thai ID number same as on pink card or Thai card, takes minutes to get at local tax office

Yet another one - how many different IDs are on offer from each Department I wonder.  Yet another reason they need to address this issue.  

[ThailandRyan]

Pink ID Card, Thai drivers license for motorbike, License for Car, Yellow book, and then the TM-30 that Immigration has, All are some form of ID, and why they can not combine them all and we need to carry a passport with us is just insanity.

[Bluesofa]

11 minutes ago, Faz said:

That's some form of Immigration status.

The Yellow house book and Thai ID card for foreigners has nothing to do with Immigration or Immigration status in Thailand.

I remember earwigging a conversation between our Pu Yai Ban and the local Immigration Official who came to check my marital status.

The IO was telling the Pu Yai Ban to be on the lookout for any foreign workers, especially in construction. He said the Pu Yai Ban must contact immigration and let them know, plus he must check their pink ID card.
I asked if it was the same as my pink ID card. The IO said they were two completely different items. The one he was talking about was issued to workers from neighbouring countries.

[gummy]

1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

Pink ID Card, Thai drivers license for motorbike, License for Car, Yellow book, and then the TM-30 that Immigration has, All are some form of ID, and why they can not combine them all and we need to carry a passport with us is just insanity.

@ThailandRyan  Good to see you over in this part of  the world. Always enjoyed your informative posts in "in that other place".  And yes a combination of cards , certainly separate licenses for car and motor cycle is absurd but TIT

[ThailandRyan]

As I can see a few here have migrated from the other ever changing Form.  One card designed for someone who has a residence here, as well as an annual extension of stay would be fantastic, as well as the ability to just change the address on it as you moved to a new location without issues.  What a fiasco it was to change the Pink ID card address to my new residence last year, and of course I had to give up my original yellow book in lieu of my current one, even though the house up north is now in my daughters name.  How does one own multiple places and yet is only allowed to be listed in one book.  Now I understand why the Thai's I know just stay registered in the blue book where they grew up and is either Mom and Dads house or other family members.

[Faz]

19 minutes ago, thai3 said:

Get tax card that has a Thai ID number same as on pink card or Thai card, takes minutes to get at local tax office

Thai ID number is issued when you register as a civilian and displayed in the Tabien Baan.
This is then used for the ID card, tax registration etc.

If you register for tax and don't have a Thai ID number already, they use your Passport number.

[AussieBob]

10 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I remember earwigging a conversation between our Pu Yai Ban and the local Immigration Official who came to check my marital status.

The IO was telling the Pu Yai Ban to be on the lookout for any foreign workers, especially in construction. He said the Pu Yai Ban must contact immigration and let them know, plus he must check their pink ID card.
I asked if it was the same as my pink ID card. The IO said they were two completely different items. The one he was talking about was issued to workers from neighbouring countries.

I believe there are several different types - and that it varies from Province to Province.

[AussieBob]

1 minute ago, Faz said:

Thai ID number is issued when you register as a civilian and displayed in the Tabien Baan.
This is then used for the ID card, tax registration etc.

If you register for tax and don't have a Thai ID number already, they use your Passport number.

No wonder there are so many problems when you change your Passport - I have never had any of them, but have heard about it.  An Expat specific ID Card would solve that one too 

[thai3]

2 minutes ago, Faz said:

Thai ID number is issued when you register as a civilian and displayed in the Tabien Baan.
This is then used for the ID card, tax registration etc.

If you register for tax and don't have a Thai ID number already, they use your Passport number.

No it's the same 13 numbers, I only had a tax card number and that was accepted on mor prom as a Thai Id number to register for vaccines. I did not have a Thai id when getting the tax card.

[Dedinbed]

18 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I remember earwigging a conversation between our Pu Yai Ban and the local Immigration Official

Bet that bugged them .. 

[Faz]

17 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I asked if it was the same as my pink ID card. The IO said they were two completely different items. The one he was talking about was issued to workers from neighbouring countries.

The pink ID card issued to foreign migrants is actually a Health Insurance card which they can purchase that also serves as ID. Example and explanation here; https://www.bangkokpost.com/print/418173/ 

 

[Faz]

8 minutes ago, thai3 said:

No it's the same 13 numbers, I only had a tax card number and that was accepted on mor prom as a Thai Id number to register for vaccines. I did not have a Thai id when getting the tax card.

Are you a foreign worker - a migrant?

[AussieBob]

9 minutes ago, thai3 said:

No it's the same 13 numbers, I only had a tax card number and that was accepted on mor prom as a Thai Id number to register for vaccines. I did not have a Thai id when getting the tax card.

In so many ways the Thailand bureaucracy is broken - that is yet another one.  

[Faz]

19 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

What a fiasco it was to change the Pink ID card address to my new residence last year, and of course I had to give up my original yellow book in lieu of my current one, even though the house up north is now in my daughters name. 

Same fiasco Thais have to endure, they're just used to the antiquated system.
 

21 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

How does one own multiple places and yet is only allowed to be listed in one book.  Now I understand why the Thai's I know just stay registered in the blue book where they grew up and is either Mom and Dads house or other family members.

Because the current system is also used to provide a running census of Thai population, hence you can only be registered in one book at any time.