The Pentagon gave Biden severe warnings, about the possibility of the Taliban overrunning the Afghan army

[longwood50]

9 hours ago, Stonker said:

Yes - with visas, applied for, checked, verified, and approved.

Not as refugees and not sneaking across the border!

Yes but you still miss my point YOU DONT LET THEM IN.   As stated the USA is so worried about being "racist" that they turn a blind eye on being "check, verified and approved"   They give the equivalent of a colonoscopy to an elderly 90 year old wheel chair bound citizen of Australia but give a wink to people traveling from Muslim countries.  You know, can't be racist.  I have traveled to Israel.  I can tell you in order to get in, they require absolute proof of who you are, what you do for a living, where you live,   If you have traveled to or from a Muslim country you go through extra security.  

No they didn't sneak in, but you are missing the USA is letting them in both ways.  They are giving them tourist visa's, student visas plus letting them sneak across the border. 


The flight instructor called the FBI and reported the suspicious activity saying that he had middle eastern men who only wanted to learn how to fly, not take off or land. The FBI chose not to investigate in part because of not wanting to appear racist. 
 

Bottom line, if someone comes to your home and wants to enter, you would not let them in without knowing exactly who they are.  The same is true of the USA.  If you can not establish who these people are without absolute certainty, you don't let them in.   The fact that the majority of the terrorists have been Muslims should make the USA more resolute and diligent of checking the background of entrants from the Middle East.  Not what is happening which is they are getting less scrutiny. 

 

[longwood50]

10 hours ago, Stonker said:

Well, you can use whatever term you want and call a giraffe a mouse if you like, but that wouldn't make it one.

The majority of terrorist incidents in the USA aren't carried out by those who "come to the USA", etc, but by those born in the USA.

So I am a terrorist I come to the USA and set up a home, but continue to practice anti-American and terrorist ideology.  I have children in the USA and I pass that along to them as well.  They eventually become terrorists and now you define them as "home grown"  

That is like saying the Burmese Pythons that are living in the Florida everglades are a "home grown" indigenous species because the eggs were hatched there.  These people are not "home grown"  Like the Burmese Python released in the everglades they are an invasive species 

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

I am a terrorist I come to the USA and set up a home, but continue to practice anti-American and terrorist ideology.  I have children in the USA and I pass that along to them as well.  They eventually become terrorists and now you define them as "home grown".

No, if so you're first generation, like Schwarzenegger, but your children are second generation like Trump.

That's what "home grown" means - that's the American definition, not mine, and why Trump could be President but Schwarzenneger can't.

22 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

That is like saying the Burmese Pythons that are living in the Florida everglades are a "home grown" indigenous species because the eggs were hatched there.  These people are not "home grown"  Like the Burmese Python released in the everglades they are an invasive species

Well, you may arguably be right but by your definition everybody in America, black, white, or anything in-between, is an "invasive species" unless they're a full-blooded native American.

That would leave out a lot of people ...

[Poolie]

39 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

So I am a terrorist I come to the USA and set up a home, but continue to practice anti-American and terrorist ideology.  I have children in the USA and I pass that along to them as well.  They eventually become terrorists and now you define them as "home grown"  

That is like saying the Burmese Pythons that are living in the Florida everglades are a "home grown" indigenous species because the eggs were hatched there.  These people are not "home grown"  Like the Burmese Python released in the everglades they are an invasive species 

Errrr.......yeerrrrssssss......

[ExpatPattaya]

Three empires have tried to rid the world of the Taliban. 

What they all learned from their efforts and lives lost:

Tribalism and insane religious beliefs are impossible to control.

[mcambl61]

Just now, ExpatPattaya said:

Three empires have tried to rid the world of the Taliban. 

What they all learned from their efforts and lives lost:

Tribalism and insane religious beliefs are impossible to control.

Yes, but politicians and the money behind these ridiculous foreign entanglements don't pay attention to history or common sense. It's all about the money 

[vlad]

In the UK we have a problem with Refugees ? crossing the English Channel in Inflatables we know some are Isis or Taliban or other fighters for Islam. They simply shave there Beards off and look like most of the refugees. Our home secretary and the do gooders screamed at us to allow only Children be allowed in but we now know because some were over 25 and in certain Anti -Terrorist circles were " Of fighting age ". Most attacks in the UK were committed by Islamist's allowed into the country who like  Longwood 50 said they did not sneak in to the UK Stonker. One of the worst being the Manchester Bomber Salman and his Brother Hashem Abedi, brought to the Country as kids from Syria by brought up in Manchester. There parents allowed in because they fled libya as there father was an Islamist group opposed to Gadaffi so it was obvious who radicalized there Son's, and years down the line this jihadist killed kids at an Ariane Grande Concert. 

[longwood50]

31 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Well, you may arguably be right but by your definition everybody in America, black, white, or anything in-between, is an "invasive species" unless they're a full-blooded native American.

That would leave out a lot of people

If someone's family was in the USA for several generations, and one of them after several generations became a terrorist, I would define that as "home grown"  However, that is not the case. 

1970 Nadal Malik Hasan is born in Arlington, VA, to Palestinian immigrant parents.  Fort Hood Shooting.
Syed Rizwan Fook, and Tashfeen Malik.  Syed born in the USA to parents from Palestine, Tashfeen Malik, a Palestinian born woman, but given a fiance visa. In your words, checked, verified, and approved. San Bernadino Shooting.  Syed Rizwan Fook even had a Facebook post pledging alliance to ISIS. 

I could go on indefinitely.  These are not "home grown"  They are seedlings transplanted with foreign anti American ideology and merely conceived in the USA.   

When you have an ethnic group who preaches violence and hatred towards you ethnicity and way of life, only a fool would think somehow you can take thousands of them into your country and not have at least a portion of that hatred and ultimate violence take be transplanted in your country. 


 

[dmacarelli]

19 hours ago, Stonker said:

Hello.

The question was "how", not "what with".

Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

By conducting bombing raids on Taliban camps, and blocking their entry into Kabul, until the evacuation could be accomplished. I do not think that would have been a very difficult thing to accomplish, considering that the equipment and manpower was already in place. 

And have they ever tried smart spy craft with this hooligan fools? How about tainting massive supplies of food, that gets to the Taliban? That would be a fun operation. Those kinds of missions would be inexpensive, and seemingly quite effective. 

[Stonker]

58 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

Yes but you still miss my point YOU DONT LET THEM IN.   As stated the USA is so worried about being "racist" that they turn a blind eye on being "check, verified and approved"   They give the equivalent of a colonoscopy to an elderly 90 year old wheel chair bound citizen of Australia but give a wink to people traveling from Muslim countries.  You know, can't be racist.  I have traveled to Israel.  I can tell you in order to get in, they require absolute proof of who you are, what you do for a living, where you live,   If you have traveled to or from a Muslim country you go through extra security.  

No they didn't sneak in, but you are missing the USA is letting them in both ways.  They are giving them tourist visa's, student visas plus letting them sneak across the border. 


The flight instructor called the FBI and reported the suspicious activity saying that he had middle eastern men who only wanted to learn how to fly, not take off or land. The FBI chose not to investigate in part because of not wanting to appear racist. 
 

Bottom line, if someone comes to your home and wants to enter, you would not let them in without knowing exactly who they are.  The same is true of the USA.  If you can not establish who these people are without absolute certainty, you don't let them in.   The fact that the majority of the terrorists have been Muslims should make the USA more resolute and diligent of checking the background of entrants from the Middle East.  Not what is happening which is they are getting less scrutiny. 

 

No, I'm not missing your point but as this isn't my area of expertise I checked what you're saying and your whole argument is based on a "fact" which, according to the FBI Department of Counter Terrorism, is wrong.

You claimed that:

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

 The fact that the majority of the terrorists have been Muslims should make the USA more resolute and diligent of checking the background of entrants from the Middle East. 

Well, that "fact" is wrong.

The FBI produce periodical reports going back to 2000 called "Terrorism" which "provides an overview of the terrorist incidents and preventions designated by the FBI as having taken place in the United States and its territories ... and that are matters of public record. This publication does not include those incidents which the Bureau classifies under criminal rather than terrorism investigations."

The 2002-2005 periodical is unclassified, so I've quoted from that and from later similar publications.

From 2002-2005:

"In keeping with a longstanding trend, domestic extremists carried out the majority of terrorist incidents during this period. Twenty three of the 24 recorded terrorist incidents were perpetrated by domestic terrorists. With the exception of a white supremacist’s firebombing of a synagogue in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, all of the domestic terrorist incidents were committed by special interest extremists active in the animal rights and environmental movements. ...The sole international terrorist incident in the United States recorded for this period involved an attack at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport, which claimed the lives of two victims.'

"The terrorism preventions for 2002 through 2005 present a more diverse threat picture. Eight of the 14 recorded terrorism preventions stemmed from right-wing extremism, and included disruptions to plotting by individuals involved with the militia, white supremacist, constitutionalist and tax protestor, and anti-abortion movements. The remaining preventions included disruptions to plotting by an anarchist in Bellingham, Washington, who sought to bomb a U.S. Coast Guard station; a plot to attack an Islamic center in Pinellis Park, Florida; and a plot by prison-originated, Muslim convert group to attack U.S. military, Jewish, and Israeli targets in the greater Los Angeles area. In addition, three preventions involved individuals who sought to provide material support to foreign terrorist organizations, including al-Qa’ida, for attacks within the United States."

It's a similar story if you follow their other reports and the Terrorism in America After 9 / 11 report published in 2019:

"The most likely threat to the United States comes from terrorists inspired by a mixture of ideologies including jihadist, far-right, and idiosyncratic strains, radicalized on or via the internet, and taking advantage of the availability of weapons, particularly semi-automatic firearms, in the United States. While ISIS’ inspirational power has lessened in recent years, white supremacist extremism is increasingly inspiring deadly violence.

When it comes to the jihadist terrorist threat, the main threat remains terrorists inspired by ISIS as opposed to ISIS-directed attacks of the sort seen in Paris in 2015 and Brussels in 2016. The most typical jihadist threat to the United States remains homegrown rather than from foreign nationals infiltrating the country. The travel ban is not an effective response to this threat."

"In the 18 years since the 9/11 attacks, individuals motivated by jihadist ideology have killed 104 people inside the United States....no foreign terrorist organization has carried out a successful deadly attack in the United States since 9/11, and none of the perpetrators of the 13 lethal jihadist attacks in the United States received training from a foreign terrorist group."

"individuals inspired by far-right ideology (including white supremacist, anti-government, and anti-abortion views) have killed 109 people. ... Individuals inspired in part by black nationalist or separatist ideology killed eight people, and individuals inspired by forms of ideological misogyny also killed eight people."

I don't want to join in the argy-bargy of American politics, but suffice to say that since 2016 only 20% of those killed in terrorist incidents were killed by jihadis, and only 25% of incidents involved jihadis.

Michael McGarrity, assistant director of the FBI’s counterterrorism division, testified to Congress that “individuals adhering to racially motivated violent extremism ideology have been responsible for the most lethal incidents among domestic terrorists in recent years, and the FBI assesses the threat of violence and lethality posed by racially motivated violent extremists will continue ... there have been more domestic terrorism subjects disrupted by arrest and more deaths caused by domestic terrorists than international terrorists in recent years."

Dan Coats, Director of National Intelligence, testified to Congress in January 2019 that “Homegrown violent extremists (HVEs) are likely to present the most acute Sunni terrorist threat to the United States,” as he had in 2018 and 2017.

Christopher Wray, FBI Director, testified in October 2018 : “The FBI assesses HVEs are the greatest terrorism threat to the Homeland.”

I really doubt if they can all be wrong.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

  Not what is happening which is they are getting less scrutiny. 

Not according to those who should know.

Leon Rodriguez, Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, testified in November 2015 that of the millions of people who try to get into the United States each year, “applicants for refugee status, and in particular refugees from Syria, are subjected to the most scrutiny of any traveler, of any kind, for any purpose, to the United States.”and that the process can take up to two years.

"On 9/11, there were 16 people on the U.S. “No Fly” list.  In 2016, there were 81,000 people on the list."

Of the 479 individuals  accused of jihadist terrorism-related crimes in the United States between 9/11 and 2019, eighty-four percent were either U.S. citizens or U.S. legal residents.  Just under half of them, 233, were born American citizens.

.

.

 

https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005

 

[Stonker]

56 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

If someone's family was in the USA for several generations, and one of them after several generations became a terrorist, I would define that as "home grown"  However, that is not the case. 

1970 Nadal Malik Hasan is born in Arlington, VA, to Palestinian immigrant parents.  Fort Hood Shooting.
Syed Rizwan Fook, and Tashfeen Malik.  Syed born in the USA to parents from Palestine, Tashfeen Malik, a Palestinian born woman, but given a fiance visa. In your words, checked, verified, and approved. San Bernadino Shooting.  Syed Rizwan Fook even had a Facebook post pledging alliance to ISIS. 

I could go on indefinitely.  These are not "home grown"  They are seedlings transplanted with foreign anti American ideology and merely conceived in the USA.   

When you have an ethnic group who preaches violence and hatred towards you ethnicity and way of life, only a fool would think somehow you can take thousands of them into your country and not have at least a portion of that hatred and ultimate violence take be transplanted in your country. 


 

I'm sure you could go on indefinitely, but that wouldn't make you any more correct.

[Stonker]

5 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

By conducting bombing raids on Taliban camps, and blocking their entry into Kabul, until the evacuation could be accomplished. I do not think that would have been a very difficult thing to accomplish, considering that the equipment and manpower was already in place. 

You don't seem to have much idea how the Taliban operate, or what you can do with "state of the art aircraft, expert pilots, drones, and other weapons", or more importantly of the conduct of the war.

The U.S. and NATO ended their combat mission in Afghanistan on December 28, 2014.  After that, apart from in support of Afghan troops, they couldn't "conduct bombing raids on Taliban camps", etc as that was beyond their remit.

That phase of the war was over for the US. Finished. Ended. Past.

The Taliban simply walked and drove into Kabul, unopposed - without boots on the ground you can't "block their entry into Kabul" or anywhere else, and the ANA weren't prepared to put boots on the ground.

16 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

And have they ever tried smart spy craft with this hooligan fools? How about tainting massive supplies of food, that gets to the Taliban? That would be a fun operation. Those kinds of missions would be inexpensive, and seemingly quite effective.

I think you've been watching too much Mission Impossible.

Do you think the Taliban get their food delivered by Tesco's?

Sorry, but I thought you wanted a rational discussion. My mistake.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Three empires have tried to rid the world of the Taliban. 

What they all learned from their efforts and lives lost:

Tribalism and insane religious beliefs are impossible to control.

Three?

Some had fought against the Soviets with the Mujahideen, but their aims were very different from them and they ended up fighting against and ousting the Mujahideen in 1996.

Really it's just the US coalition.

 

[longwood50]

6 hours ago, Stonker said:

Well, that "fact" is wrong.

It has been said that there are Liars, D***ned Liars and then Statistics. 

No if one uses the litmus test of which ethnic group committed the most terrorist act you would likely come up with Caucasians.  However you are totally missing the point.  Muslims represent 3.4 million people in the USA representing 1.1% of the population. 

Between 2000 and 2021 there are a reported 107 incidents listed as terrorist attacks.  Some of the perpetrators are unknown.  However of those known 41 of the 107 or 38.3% of the attacks have involved a Muslim.   So you have 1.1% of the population but they represent 38.3% of the terrorist attacks.  So is 38.3% 'THE MAJORITY'  No but I find it extraordinarily disproportionate.  So I suggest it makes sense to concentrate on the groups that are "more likely" to represent a problem.   If that makes me a racist.  So be it, I deem it to be common sense. 

There are over 5 million Chinese in the USA but guess what, there has never been a terrorist attack in the USA from a person of Chinese descent.  

There are a total of 18.6 million people of Asian descent in the USA or 5.4% of the population but guess what, there has never been a terrorist attack in the USA from a person of any Asian descent. 

There are 60.8 million Hispanics in the USA or 18.5% of the population but guess what, not a single terrorist attack has been from a person of Hispanic descent.

There are 42 million Blacks in the USA or 13.4% of the population and guess what, there has never been a single terrorist attack by a black person. 

So bottom line, if I am truly concerned about security I am going to more severely restrict, verify, vett, a person entering the USA who is of Middle Eastern much more severely than those entering from other 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by longwood50

[Tish]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:57 PM, Transam said:

1941-45..?

Only 2 years late.

[Tish]

21 minutes ago, Transam said:

No, it wasn't their fight to start with...

Better late than never.Thanks for coming anyway.

[Stonker]

14 hours ago, longwood50 said:

It has been said that there are Liars, D***ned Liars and then Statistics. 

No if one uses the litmus test of which ethnic group committed the most terrorist act you would likely come up with Caucasians.  However you are totally missing the point.  Muslims represent 3.4 million people in the USA representing 1.1% of the population. 

Between 2000 and 2021 there are a reported 107 incidents listed as terrorist attacks.  Some of the perpetrators are unknown.  However of those known 41 of the 107 or 38.3% of the attacks have involved a Muslim.   So you have 1.1% of the population but they represent 38.3% of the terrorist attacks.  So is 38.3% 'THE MAJORITY'  No but I find it extraordinarily disproportionate.  So I suggest it makes sense to concentrate on the groups that are "more likely" to represent a problem.   If that makes me a racist.  So be it, I deem it to be common sense. 

There are over 5 million Chinese in the USA but guess what, there has never been a terrorist attack in the USA from a person of Chinese descent.  

There are a total of 18.6 million people of Asian descent in the USA or 5.4% of the population but guess what, there has never been a terrorist attack in the USA from a person of any Asian descent. 

There are 60.8 million Hispanics in the USA or 18.5% of the population but guess what, not a single terrorist attack has been from a person of Hispanic descent.

There are 42 million Blacks in the USA or 13.4% of the population and guess what, there has never been a single terrorist attack by a black person. 

So bottom line, if I am truly concerned about security I am going to more severely restrict, verify, vett, a person entering the USA who is of Middle Eastern much more severely than those entering from other 

 

No, it doesn't necessarily make you a "racist", it just makes you wrong.

You claimed "the fact that the majority of terrorists have been Muslims"

You were wrong, plain and simple.

It's not "the majority", it's less than 40%.

You claimed they weren't "home grown" but, according to the Director of the FBI and Director of National Intelligence they are, so you were wrong.

FWIW, you've now claimed "there has never been a single terrorist attack by a black person", but yet again you're wrong (they killed eight out of 109 between 2002 and 2019).

You claimed those from the Middle East were getting "less scrutiny", but the Director of Citizenship and Immigration testified that they're getting the "most scrutiny" so again you're wrong.

You want to restrict access to Muslims and those from the Middle East? You're wasting your time as you're closing the stable door:

"Of the 479 individuals  accused of jihadist terrorism-related crimes in the United States between 9/11 and 2019, eighty-four percent were either U.S. citizens or U.S. legal residents.  Just under half of them, 233, were born American citizens." 

Close the stable door if it makes you feel good, but what part of that can't you understand?

 

 

 

[longwood50]

7 hours ago, Stonker said:

You claimed "the fact that the majority of terrorists have been Muslims"

Again, you are parsing words.  As mentioned 38% of the terrorist attacks have been from Muslims.  So in terms of ethnicity, they represent the "majority".   No other single group comprises anywhere close to that percentage.  Also as mentioned, they comprise only 1.1% of the USA population, yet comprise 38% of the terrorist attacks.  So they are by far and away the group with the most terrorist attacks disproportionate to their population.  So to be precise there are 236.5 million Caucasians in the USA and they were involved in 148 terrorist attacks.  That represents a rate of .627 attacks per million while Muslims were involved in 41 attacks for a rate 37.7 attacks per million.  That is a rate 60.12 more per million and if that does not make them the the "majority" as a percentage of their population, I don't know what does. 

It terms of scrutiny, do you really expect the government to say they are giving only scant attention to the group responsible for the huge percentage of terrorist attacks. 

As said, they are turning a blind eye towards vetting Muslims entering the USA.  Case in point are the 9/11 terrorists.  They all got visa's do you really believe that 19 people from the middle east could come in and there would be nothing to tie them previously to any terrorist group.  The flight instructor called the FBI and warned them he had middle eastern men learning to fly but not interested in taking off or landing.  They did nothing.  And that according to you is giving adequate attention given the level of terrorism known to be associated with Muslim extremists. 

More recently, the San Bernadino Shooters Rizwan Farook, and Tashfeen Malik.  Rizwan Farook "afterwards" it was discovered he had been in contact with Isis within two years of the attack.  He even posted on Facebook his allegiance to ISIS. As so according to you, the FBI adequately vetts Muslims.  What more could you possibly give them but a public statement on social media that you pledge allegiance to a terror group.  No, they don't "investigate" because of the fear of being labeled racist. 


The same is true of Ft. Hood shooter Nidal Hissan.  He wrote emails to known terrorists expressing his support of them.  This was shown in a report to be "ignored" by the FBI



You call them "home grown"  No, they are sleeper cells.  These are not third, fourth or fifth generation USA citizens.  These are either individuals who entered the USA on Visa's or the immediate children of those who entered the USA.  That is not "homegrown"  that is transplanted. 


Name one, just one Muslim terrorist who was the grand child, or great grandchild of a U.S.A. citizen.  That would be "home grown" 

 

[Rain]

Appears that there's not too much difference in nutters. 

Certainly applies to some here. 

[stevenkongju]

On 8/16/2021 at 7:24 PM, MrStretch said:

It's time the US let countries like Afghanistan implode.  We should do our best to contain them inside their own borders, but if they want to be fundamentalist asses, let them be.

Respectfully, see September 2001

[stevenkongju]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:09 PM, 9S_ said:

According to Robert Games former CIA Director and Department of Defense, working under both the Bush and Obama administrations, said that 

Robert Gates...you've obviously never heard of one of the most important foreign policy guys of the past 25 years. The "m" and "t" are not close on a keyboard.

[stevenkongju]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:52 PM, gummy said:

Yep they never learn though. every incursion into someone's country has always spelt disaster for them, ever the since the Bay of Pigs fiasco in Cuba

The Soviet Union is history...Grenada, Panama. Prior to Bay of Pigs, South Korea, Japan ans Germany seen to be dong well. Iraqis happy to be rid of the Husseins???

[stevenkongju]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:53 PM, Rain said:

And while they're at it - disband and remove the hundreds of U.S. military facilities the world over. 

Ah, dumbassery! When the Philippines asked for the removal of the Subic Bay base, the US complied. The US stays where they are wanted, and leaves otherwise.

[Rain]

1 minute ago, stevenkongju said:

Ah, dumbassery! When the Philippines asked for the removal of the Subic Bay base, the US complied. The US stays where they are wanted, and leaves otherwise.

You don't truly believe these things, do ya? 

[stevenkongju]

On 8/21/2021 at 2:34 PM, Stonker said:

Yes, but in Germany they don't actually "do" anything, and in S Korea they patrol a clearly marked border, little else.

Ridiculous. They don't "patrol" jack shit. 25,000 soldiers there are a trip wire and instill confidence that there is a real alliance. North Korea could obliterate Seoul in two days, they don't wish to be obliterated 2 days later. 10,000 permanent soldiers at Bagram et al. would have ensured a lot.