News Forum - Thai democracy at risk following Pheu Thai’s exclusion of MFP in coalition

[palooka]

  On 8/15/2023 at 1:28 PM, KhaoYai said:

I don't doubt what you say but the ones I saw were written by Thai authors.

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The books were written in the late 70s and had coauthors with farlung names.  The books themselves were very old and had seen plenty of service.  Probably hand me downs from other institutions.

Did a google etc search on some of the names and got nothing relevant.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/15/2023 at 10:34 AM, KhaoYai said:

Are you refering to 'idleness' - I hadn't factored that in .

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Referring to all of it…. Irrational & Hopeless …… and yet where Required, Culture is Ditched and Thais with High IQ perform very well, thinking of Medicine & Aviation where highest international standards must be complied……

[Marc26]

  On 8/16/2023 at 11:14 AM, oldschooler said:

 thinking of Medicine & Aviation where highest international standards must be complied……

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And a lot of them, especially in Medicine, were schooled in the West

[cowslip]

  On 8/16/2023 at 1:56 PM, Marc26 said:

And a lot of them, especially in Medicine, were schooled in the West

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not many - Doctors claims to have trained in "the West" ar misleading - they often get certificates in specialist courses from the US, but they aren't allowed to practice their. THey just get a bit of paper to stick on their surgery wall.

[Marc26]

  On 8/16/2023 at 1:58 PM, cowslip said:

not many - Doctors claims to have trained in "the West" ar misleading - they often get certificates in specialist courses from the US, but they aren't allowed to practice their. THey just get a bit of paper to stick on their surgery wall.

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You go to some pretty shitty hospitals then 555

Plenty of Doctors in Thailand have gotten their Medical degrees in US and other places..............

[cowslip]

  On 8/16/2023 at 4:32 PM, Marc26 said:

You go to some pretty shitty hospitals then 555

Plenty of Doctors in Thailand have gotten their Medical degrees in US and other places..............

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No they haven't - it takes up to 6 years to qualify in the States and firstly they can't afford it and secondly if they did they would stay there as the wages are higher.

All you have to do is listen to there English and you realise they could possibly read a medical paper or take the exams required in America. 

A lot of "teaching" hospitals in the States a=make money out of running courses for foreign doctors - but they are only in specific specialist fields and they aren't allowed to practice as doctors in the US while they are doing it...they are just observers.

 Training of Doctors in Thailand is riven with corruption so they are not above making misleading claims about being "trained" in America.

Even Abisit's parents who who worked in Newcastle UK were researchers not practicing doctors.

THe EU doesn't run these course so you see less of that from the EU - however if you train as a doctor in Thailand you can get a job in EU countries by doing their training courses - you can't do that in the US.

[Marc26]

  On 8/16/2023 at 6:01 PM, cowslip said:

No they haven't - it takes up to 6 years to qualify in the States and firstly they can't afford it and secondly if they did they would stay there as the wages are higher.

All you have to do is listen to there English and you realise they could possibly read a medical paper or take the exams required in America. 

A lot of "teaching" hospitals in the States a=make money out of running courses for foreign doctors - but they are only in specific specialist fields and they aren't allowed to practice as doctors in the US while they are doing it...they are just observers.

 Training of Doctors in Thailand is riven with corruption so they are not above making misleading claims about being "trained" in America.

Even Abisit's parents who who worked in Newcastle UK were researchers not practicing doctors.

THe EU doesn't run these course so you see less of that from the EU - however if you train as a doctor in Thailand you can get a job in EU countries by doing their training courses - you can't do that in the US.

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"Can't afford it"

My stepson goes to Thammasat University and he wouldn't even come close to being one of the wealthier kids there.........

Not everyone is poor in Thailand

[cowslip]

  On 8/16/2023 at 6:12 PM, Marc26 said:

"Can't afford it"

My stepson goes to Thammasat University and he wouldn't even come close to being one of the wealthier kids there.........

Not everyone is poor in Thailand

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So what?

[Marc26]

  On 8/16/2023 at 6:34 PM, cowslip said:

So what?

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So exactly what I said..............not all Thai people are poor

There are 100's of thousands of Thais that can afford tuition in the US/West

So your statement that Doctors couldn't afford it, just isn't based in reality

[cowslip]

  On 8/16/2023 at 8:03 PM, Marc26 said:

So exactly what I said..............not all Thai people are poor

There are 100's of thousands of Thais that can afford tuition in the US/West

So your statement that Doctors couldn't afford it, just isn't based in reality

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As you well know that is only part of my post....you seem to be deliberately misconstrued my argument.

THe fact is that although many Thais can train in USA tfew become doctors over there and work in Thailand - you also have to wonder about their qualifications to even start training.

Thailand does train it's own doctors - the system is very corrupt and the "wealthy' tend to get through regardless of ability - so doing the "specialist" courses (which take money) is another way of looking good for the punters.

If you train as a doctor you are obliged to work for 3 years in public healthcare - which compared to European systems is nothing.

Poor medical practice is rampant in Thailand even in the most expensive private hospitals because people like you think that they are all trained in America.

You also need to take into account the kind of training these people get and at what cost.

Thai doctors (or any foreign doctor) can practice as doctors in the USA, but they have to go through a number of phases to get a license to practice medicine in the US.

Pass the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE). The USMLE is a three-part exam that tests the knowledge and skills of medical graduates.

Obtain certification from the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG). The ECFMG is an organization that evaluates the qualifications of international medical graduates.

Completing a residency program in the USA. Residency is a period of several years on top of post-graduate medical education which then allows doctors to take up a particular specialty.

They then have to pass a state medical licensing exam. Each state in the USA has its own medical licensing exam that must be passed in order to practice medicine in that state.

In addition to this, Thai doctors who want to practice medicine in the USA must also meet certain English language proficiency requirements.  (and as someone who trained doctors and other practitioners in Thai hospitals, I can tell you that most do not have sufficient proficiency for this

Individual states require doctors to a certain level on the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) or the International English Language Testing System (IELTS). Or even TOEIC – which, in the UK, was exposed to be so corrupt that anyone studying TOEIC had their visa revoked

The process of becoming a licensed doctor in the USA is very long and challenging, of course it is possible for Thai doctors to achieve their goal. But most prefer just to do part of a course and stick that up on their wall – even that will cost millions of baht.

You might also ask yourself why you see more American qualifications than EU. Whereas some training in the states is world-leading, it is not consistent and the US healthcare system is one of the worst in the Western world.

Edited August 16, 2023 by cowslip

[Marc26]

  On 8/16/2023 at 8:23 PM, cowslip said:

As you well know that is only part of my post....you seem to be deliberately misconstrued my argument.

THe fact is that although many Thais can train in USA tfew become doctors over there and work in Thailand - you also have to wonder about their qualifications to even start training.

Thailand does train it's own doctors - the system is very corrupt and the "wealthy' tend to get through regardless of ability - so doing the "specialist" courses (which take money) is another way of looking good for the punters.

If you train as a doctor you are obliged to work for 3 years in public healthcare - which compared to European systems is nothing.

Poor medical practice is rampant in Thailand even in the most expensive private hospitals because people like you think that they are all trained in America.

You also need to take into account the kind of training these people get and at what cost.

Thai doctors (or any foreign doctor) can practice as doctors in the USA, but they have to go through a number of phases to get a license to practice medicine in the US.

Pass the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE). The USMLE is a three-part exam that tests the knowledge and skills of medical graduates.

Obtain certification from the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG). The ECFMG is an organization that evaluates the qualifications of international medical graduates.

Completing a residency program in the USA. Residency is a period of several years on top of post-graduate medical education which then allows doctors to take up a particular specialty.

They then have to pass a state medical licensing exam. Each state in the USA has its own medical licensing exam that must be passed in order to practice medicine in that state.

In addition to this, Thai doctors who want to practice medicine in the USA must also meet certain English language proficiency requirements.  (and as someone who trained doctors and other practitioners in Thai hospitals, I can tell you that most do not have sufficient proficiency for this

Individual states require doctors to a certain level on the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) or the International English Language Testing System (IELTS). Or even TOEIC – which, in the UK, was exposed to be so corrupt that anyone studying TOEIC had their visa revoked

The process of becoming a licensed doctor in the USA is very long and challenging, of course it is possible for Thai doctors to achieve their goal. But most prefer just to do part of a course and stick that up on their wall – even that will cost millions of baht.

You might also ask yourself why you see more American qualifications than EU. Whereas some training in the states is world-leading, it is not consistent and the US healthcare system is one of the worst in the Western world.

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Why you see more American qualifications 

Well because the US still has vastly more Universities than anywhere else in the world and the US is the #1 importer of foreign students by an extremely wide margin 

And I know all about having to qualify and test if you go to North America 

My stepson is graduating with a Physical Therapy degree in Thailand but if he comes to Canada next year and wants to pursue PT he will likely need to take more courses at a Canadian University and definitely has to pass board tests 

[cowslip]

  On 8/17/2023 at 12:15 AM, Marc26 said:

Why you see more American qualifications

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In Thailand you don't you see certificates on walls - they are not doctors 7 year qualifications.

You present a very distorted and inaccurate image…

When it comes to Doctors per capta the US isn’t even in the wold top ten.

Medical schools  There are about 2600 medical schools worldwide.

The countries with the largest numbers of schools are

1. India 304
2. Brazil 182 
3. USA 173
4. China  147
5. Pakistan 86

One-third of all medical schools are located in five countries and nearly half are located in 10 countries. Of 207 independent states, 24 have no medical school and 50 have only one. Regionally, numbers of citizens per school differ: the Caribbean region has one school per 0.6 million population; the

 Americas and Oceania           1 per 1.2 million population;

Europe                                     1 per 1.8 million population;

Asia                                         1 per 3.5 million population, and

Africa                                      1 per 5.0 million population.

The USA is particularly know for financing their school by selling other qualifications to foreigners whilst subsidizing their home students.

The number of medical graduates in the USA around 2017 was 7.8 per 100k pop

One of the lowest in the world

Germany                     11.5

Ireland was top with   24.9

UK                               12.9

Figures from Who OECD Library and Wiki

Edited August 17, 2023 by cowslip

[Marc26]

  On 8/17/2023 at 8:49 AM, cowslip said:

In Thailand you don't you see certificates on walls - they are not doctors 7 year qualifications.

You present a very distorted and inaccurate image…

When it comes to Doctors per capta the US isn’t even in the wold top ten.

Medical schools  There are about 2600 medical schools worldwide.

The countries with the largest numbers of schools are

1. India 304
2. Brazil 182 
3. USA 173
4. China  147
5. Pakistan 86

One-third of all medical schools are located in five countries and nearly half are located in 10 countries. Of 207 independent states, 24 have no medical school and 50 have only one. Regionally, numbers of citizens per school differ: the Caribbean region has one school per 0.6 million population; the

 Americas and Oceania           1 per 1.2 million population;

Europe                                     1 per 1.8 million population;

Asia                                         1 per 3.5 million population, and

Africa                                      1 per 5.0 million population.

The USA is particularly know for financing their school by selling other qualifications to foreigners whilst subsidizing their home students.

The number of medical graduates in the USA around 2017 was 7.8 per 100k pop

One of the lowest in the world

Germany                     11.5

Ireland was top with   24.9

UK                               12.9

Figures from Who OECD Library and Wiki

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Except that wasn't what I was talking about 

I wasn't talking about the # of doctors per country

I specifically said the US is the #1 importer of foreign students

https://studee.com/guides/10-most-popular-countries-for-international-students/#:~:text=USA,-No.&text=For decades%2C the US has,an appetite for academic excellence.

And take away China and the US has the most Thai students studying abroad there

By a wide margin

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-Thai-students-classified-by-top-5-countries-Source-The-Higher-Education_fig1_347485760

All of that is exactly what I said 

[cowslip]

  On 8/17/2023 at 12:36 PM, Marc26 said:

Except that wasn't what I was talking about 

I wasn't talking about the # of doctors per country

I specifically said the US is the #1 importer of foreign students

https://studee.com/guides/10-most-popular-countries-for-international-students/#:~:text=USA,-No.&text=For decades%2C the US has,an appetite for academic excellence.

And take away China and the US has the most Thai students studying abroad there

By a wide margin

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-Thai-students-classified-by-top-5-countries-Source-The-Higher-Education_fig1_347485760

All of that is exactly what I said 

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the sites you talk about having nothing to do with studying medicine or qualifying as doctors in America.

you realise they don't become doctors? nothing to do with qualifying as doctors  in Thailand.

As I said earlier the States leads the way in "selling" qualifications to foreigners

Edited August 17, 2023 by cowslip

[Marc26]

  On 8/17/2023 at 12:40 PM, cowslip said:

the sites you talk about having nothing to do with studying medicine or qualifying as doctors in America.

you realise they don't become doctors? nothing to do with qualifying as doctors  in Thailand.

As I said earlier the States leads the way in "selling" qualifications to foreigners

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Yup

None of them go to Medical school

Great chatting with you!

[cowslip]

  On 8/17/2023 at 1:05 PM, Marc26 said:

Yup

None of them go to Medical school

Great chatting with you!

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QED.

Perhaps you should read websites before trying to cite them in error.

Edited August 17, 2023 by cowslip

[Thaidup]

  On 8/13/2023 at 2:37 PM, oldschooler said:

Yes and that’s fine but let’s have no pretence that Thailand is anything other than sixth rate in the great geopolitical scheme of things. Zero “ nuance” or “ cleverness” just systematic oppression of the Low.
Very weak, backward unintelligent non- innovative and inconsequential people with a wretched feudal day by day culture which will never change.

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The inviting fact of all of the "Very weak, backward unintelligent non- innovative and inconsequential people  with a wretched feudal day by day culture which will never change." is that the people here are happy, and we as foreigners find this inbuilt happiness of the Thai people enticing, I can understand it, it comes from family values, something that has been lost in western culture over the last 50 years.

Compare Thai's to Vietnamese,Phillipinos,Cambodians etc, "Land of smiles"  comes from what?

[Thaidup]

  On 8/12/2023 at 10:02 PM, Marc26 said:

I know farangs love to dick measure who knows more about Thailand 

I've been with my wife for 20 years

The vast majority of my time is spent with Thais, both in Canada and in Thailand 

And if we want to dick measure 

Being in Canada I am exposed to Thais from all different backgrounds vs some farang who lives in the village and is exposed to one demographic 

PS....You literally did not answer my question 

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Same, married in 2003, and permanent here from 2012, and 59 years old now, I would guess you are still working.

[Marc26]

  On 8/20/2023 at 4:48 PM, Thaidup said:

The inviting fact of all of the "Very weak, backward unintelligent non- innovative and inconsequential people  with a wretched feudal day by day culture which will never change." is that the people here are happy, and we as foreigners find this inbuilt happiness of the Thai people enticing, I can understand it, it comes from family values, something that has been lost in western culture over the last 50 years.

Compare Thai's to Vietnamese,Phillipinos,Cambodians etc, "Land of smiles"  comes from what?

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I highly disagree with you on family values being lost in Western culture

At least where I am from, living in multiple cities across 2 countries

Family is as big as any in Thailand 

Often times without the financial guilt Thais put on their family members 

(The # of Thais I know that are financially stressed or taken advantage by family members is astronomically higher than in the West)

BUT I 100% agree with you that Thais are generally a happy bunch and without a doubt, the best thing about the country

And one of the best aspects I've experienced in all of my travels around the world 

[Marc26]

  On 8/20/2023 at 5:16 PM, Thaidup said:

Same, married in 2003, and permanent here from 2012, and 59 years old now, I would guess you are still working.

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Yup still working

This is where I was this weekend for work

[Thaidup]

  On 8/20/2023 at 9:04 PM, Marc26 said:

Yup still working

This is where I was this weekend for work

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Sasquatch territory?.

Beautiful country, you are a lucky man.

[Thaidup]

Thai democracy at risk?

But really, what a stupid title, an absolute democracy is, as an example, 51 people out of 100 agreeing to or voting to jail anyone that disagrees with their view. seems more Marxist to me.

I prefer the large number of diverse parties coming together for a consensus than a democracy that is mob rule.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, Thaidup said:

Thai democracy at risk?

But really, what a stupid title, an absolute democracy is, as an example, 51 people out of 100 agreeing to or voting to jail anyone that disagrees with their view. seems more Marxist to me.

I prefer the large number of diverse parties coming together for a consensus than a democracy that is mob rule.

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Nobody votes to jail people Govts.pass Laws. Judges sentence criminals.

Basic separation of powers applies in western ( proper) democracies.
Mob Rule would be Absence of Democracy or Anarchy (Absence of Leaders) 

[cowslip]

  On 8/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, Thaidup said:

Thai democracy at risk?

But really, what a stupid title, an absolute democracy is, as an example, 51 people out of 100 agreeing to or voting to jail anyone that disagrees with their view. seems more Marxist to me.

I prefer the large number of diverse parties coming together for a consensus than a democracy that is mob rule.

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I have a problem with both your ideas about Marx and pi=unishment and the comparison between Democracy and mob rule

"The main purpose of punishment should be simply to ensure that society is maintained and protected. Excessive punishment should not be used. The Marxist view on crime and deviance justified criminal behavior by stating that it is a natural occurrence that springs from resource inequality.? - https://study.com/learn/lesson/marxist-criminology-punishment.html#:~:text=The main purpose of punishment,that springs from resource inequality.

Democracy is usually regarded as government of the people by te people FOR the people. Simple majorities are not necessarily part of a democracy.

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, Thaidup said:

Thai democracy at risk?

But really, what a stupid title, an absolute democracy is, as an example, 51 people out of 100 agreeing to or voting to jail anyone that disagrees with their view. seems more Marxist to me.

I prefer the large number of diverse parties coming together for a consensus than a democracy that is mob rule.

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I think most people would agree that the political system in Thailand is not Democracy - no matter what the military might call it. If anything good has come of the latest comedy routine - its that the Thai people seem to have woken up to the fact that they do not in fact, have a democracy.

The fact that an un-elected body (The Senate) controls who can be Prime Minister comepletely negates any claim to democracy.  Yes, other states have an upper house - like the House of Lords in the UK, another unelected body. However, the House of Lords is there to provide checks and balances to Parliament's decisions - they have absolutley no power to overturn an election result and no-one should - it makes a mockery of the very term Democracy.