News Forum - Thai democracy at risk following Pheu Thai’s exclusion of MFP in coalition

[Marc26]

  On 8/14/2023 at 11:58 AM, oldschooler said:

Seriously dude ? They are as thick as mince as a group ! 

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Better than going through life miserable and hateful...........

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/14/2023 at 11:22 AM, oldschooler said:

An odd view and clearly wrong. History reflects and governs Everything.

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Odd? What goes on in Thailand has nothing to do with history.  Its greed, pure greed. Greed is not historical, other then the fact that greed has been with us since we existed.

I am not a product of history for example, my way of thinking has changed over the years as I learn and consider what goes on around me and in the wider context.  In my twenties I was blinkered and very right wing. These days my views have changed quite dramatically because of a). I have been prepared to consider and learn and b). the wisdom that only comes with age. I have not changed because of anything to do with history.

Yes, you can say that Thailand has arrived at where it is because of the historical context but equally it can be said that history has nothing to do with it. At least one of Thailand's 'Elite' families can only trace its current position back around 80 years and that position was only arrived at through greed.

We are here today and we make choices according to our convictions and desires - we don't make them because of any historical influence.  Whilst I agree that history sets the context - to bring it up to date and on topic, history had no influence on the general's decision to install the 'senate' and therefore control Thailand's politics remotely. The result of which lead to the situation which is the title of this thread.

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/14/2023 at 11:50 AM, Khunmark said:

However, my point was, high quality education and health care, or low quality for that matter are not the exclusive domain of one political system or another.

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But under what system are they more likely to exist and be equally available across the population?

From what I see education is pretty poor under most other systems - taking its availabiity to the nation as a whole and taking no account of eligibility through wealth. That is not to say that good education is always spread equally and equitably throughout nations under democratic control - but I'd say its far more likely to be found in them.

There are disparities in the UK for example but even at its worst level, the education available in the UK is much better than that in many non democratic societies. Whether what's available is actually taken up, is a completely different question.  In some autocratic and authoritarian societies, good education is subsituted for 'targeted learning' - where the state controls what is learned and what is not - according to their political ambitions and the country's need rather than the desires of the individual. In others it is denied entirely based upon gender.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/14/2023 at 10:57 AM, cowslip said:

since when was UK a colony and US history is more of a colonialiser that a colony - I think you'll have a hard time finding democratic ex-colonies.?

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UK ? Never. World Empire within 40 years of the Union. Much Migration from Ireland & Europe & Jews.
Britain colonised / invaded first by Neolithic Farmers 4000 bc then Corded Ware Bronze Culture 2500 bc then Iron Agers 1000 bc then Romans 55 ad then Saxons Angles Jutes  450 ad then Vikings 800 ad the Normans 1066 ad……US Economy “Colonised”  World after 1945. US took Spains Few Colonies 1898. Phil & Cuba Only.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/14/2023 at 1:24 PM, Marc26 said:

Better than going through life miserable and hateful...........

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More like observant, realistic & critical…… hostile deflection unworthy ……you are better than that

[Marc26]

  On 8/14/2023 at 3:07 PM, oldschooler said:

More like observant, realistic & critical…… hostile deflection unworthy ……you are better than that

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Believe me, my stepson shuts his brain off for about 85% of his life  :)

So I am not disputing they can be thick AF, but plenty very intelligent ones as well

Hoping he marries one of them to balance things out!!

[oldschooler]

  On 8/14/2023 at 3:32 PM, Marc26 said:

Believe me, my stepson shuts his brain off for about 85% of his life  :)

So I am not disputing they can be thick AF, but plenty very intelligent ones as well

Hoping he marries one of them to balance things out!!

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High IQ Chinese Thais in Medicine & Aviation at least. Only two areas which ( necessarily) comply with western standards for economic export reasons. 

[palooka]

  On 8/14/2023 at 12:03 PM, cowslip said:

Even stupid people get degrees.

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Some even buy them.

[palooka]

  On 8/14/2023 at 12:39 PM, cowslip said:

your argument appears to e that you did well in some tests and got a good mark in an IQ test therefore IQ is a valid measure of intelligence - I don't see and logic in that - it is a politicians fallacy  no less and as you haven't even defined intelligence I can't see any logical conclusion at all.

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Illustrating that you can have a reasonable to high IQ but if the money is not there to back it you are back at the low level in the field. 

How many times do read about parents buying entrance to specific Uni's for their dumb kids, (USA) or people caught out doing exams for other people. Common in Asia, for rich kids to pay someone to do their assignments etc.

Common in Thailand to buy a position, even the Thai army acknowledge that high ranks are bought and paid for.  Higher the rank, the more you pay, can be millions. Suspect this may be the reason the bad ones are only relocated, they paid for their job.

Even a job at Lotus a payment is required, position application fee, 2 years ago 1900 baht, I paid for a neighbour's kid.

It is all about having the money, IQ runs a poor second.

[Marc26]

  On 8/14/2023 at 11:04 PM, palooka said:

Illustrating that you can have a reasonable to high IQ but if the money is not there to back it you are back at the low level in the field. 

How many times do read about parents buying entrance to specific Uni's for their dumb kids, (USA) or people caught out doing exams for other people. Common in Asia, for rich kids to pay someone to do their assignments etc.

Common in Thailand to buy a position, even the Thai army acknowledge that high ranks are bought and paid for.  Higher the rank, the more you pay, can be millions. Suspect this may be the reason the bad ones are only relocated, they paid for their job.

Even a job at Lotus a payment is required, position application fee, 2 years ago 1900 baht, I paid for a neighbour's kid.

It is all about having the money, IQ runs a poor second.

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My wife desperately wanted my stepson to go to the Thai Air Force Academy 

And it was made known the starting bid for that was 500,000 baht

I told my wife I'd never want him in that sort of environment where bribes need to be paid 

[Khunmark]

  On 8/14/2023 at 1:51 PM, KhaoYai said:

But under what system are they more likely to exist and be equally available across the population?

From what I see education is pretty poor under most other systems - taking its availabiity to the nation as a whole and taking no account of eligibility through wealth. That is not to say that good education is always spread equally and equitably throughout nations under democratic control - but I'd say its far more likely to be found in them.

There are disparities in the UK for example but even at its worst level, the education available in the UK is much better than that in many non democratic societies. Whether what's available is actually taken up, is a completely different question.  In some autocratic and authoritarian societies, good education is subsituted for 'targeted learning' - where the state controls what is learned and what is not - according to their political ambitions and the country's need rather than the desires of the individual. In others it is denied entirely based upon gender.

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Are you speaking from experience, having taught/in countries considered more authoritarian?  Or is it hunch?  Australia has a migration program that specifically targets skilled migrants. Would you like to where a large proportion of those migrants come from? The Middle East, in particular Iran and Turkey. Areas where democracy is a novelty.

The other growth area is Latin America, particularly Colombia and Venezuela once again countries that are far from democratic. So what do all these migrants have in common? They are highly skilled, highly intelligent and highly educated. An endorsement of their education systems.

They send their children to school in Australia and believe the education system in Australia (a highly democratic country) is inferior to the education system of their country of origin. I deal with migrants on skilled migration visas on a regular basis. The information is first hand. The perception around superior deliver of public services in the western liberal democracies doesn’t match the reality.

[cowslip]

  On 8/14/2023 at 11:04 PM, palooka said:

Illustrating that you can have a reasonable to high IQ but if the money is not there to back it you are back at the low level in the field. 

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just illustrates that "IQ" is meaningless, 

[cowslip]

  On 8/15/2023 at 1:19 AM, Marc26 said:

My wife desperately wanted my stepson to go to the Thai Air Force Academy 

And it was made known the starting bid for that was 500,000 baht

I told my wife I'd never want him in that sort of environment where bribes need to be paid 

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So leave Thailand then?

[cowslip]

  On 8/14/2023 at 3:05 PM, oldschooler said:

UK ? Never. World Empire within 40 years of the Union. Much Migration from Ireland & Europe & Jews.
Britain colonised / invaded first by Neolithic Farmers 4000 bc then Corded Ware Bronze Culture 2500 bc then Iron Agers 1000 bc then Romans 55 ad then Saxons Angles Jutes  450 ad then Vikings 800 ad the Normans 1066 ad……US Economy “Colonised”  World after 1945. US took Spains Few Colonies 1898. Phil & Cuba Only.

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"Spains few colonies"??? - your information is facile and inaccurate

Edited August 15, 2023 by cowslip

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/15/2023 at 3:38 AM, Khunmark said:

Are you speaking from experience, having taught/in countries considered more authoritarian?  Or is it hunch?  Australia has a migration program that specifically targets skilled migrants. Would you like to where a large proportion of those migrants come from? The Middle East, in particular Iran and Turkey. Areas where democracy is a novelty.

The other growth area is Latin America, particularly Colombia and Venezuela once again countries that are far from democratic. So what do all these migrants have in common? They are highly skilled, highly intelligent and highly educated. An endorsement of their education systems.

They send their children to school in Australia and believe the education system in Australia (a highly democratic country) is inferior to the education system of their country of origin. I deal with migrants on skilled migration visas on a regular basis. The information is first hand. The perception around superior deliver of public services in the western liberal democracies doesn’t match the reality.

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I am speaking from general knowledge. Of course I don't know what goes on in every country or how good their education facilities are but there is plenty of evidence available about countries with inferior education systems/outcomes and most of those countries do not enjoy democracy.

You talk about highly skilled migrants coming from countries that don't have a traditional democratic system - highly skilled in what? I am talking about general education at SCHOOL. You state that Australia is seeking skilled migrants from the Middle East, skilled in what?  I'd suggest skilled in a particular trade - trades that are learned after leaving school, not at shool.

The UK also has a skilled migrant programme but it is not looking for shool leavers with good qualifications - it is looking for people with vocational qualifications, ready to go to work. I am yet to see a UK skilled migrant programme that is based on people's academic qualifications and I'd suggest other country's programmes are much the same.

So I don't really understand why we are going off on this tangent - we were talking about the level of education in schools in non-democratic countries and I think we have both stated what we believe to be true on that one.

However, returning closer to topic, I still believe that the education available for free in Thailand is in general very poor and that the Thai 'Elite' have an interest in keeping things that way.  If Thailand had been enjoying true democracy and all that goes with it, the education system would at least have a chance of being far better. Thus enabling social mobility and the general development of the people as a whole, not just the chosen few. Although democracies have their faults, truly democratic societies are far more equitable and decent education is generally available to all - its far from perfect but it is available.

I don't have an 'in depth' experience of 'the Thai education system - more of an overview.  I have seen and still see what the Thai school day consists of and far too much of it is given over to Thai Royal history and Buddha. The days are long and children are often given huge amounts of homework. The quality of what they are taught and I'm refering to English here - because I have no knowledge of the other subjects, is particularly bad.  English text books, written by Thai's, contain glaring mistakes and mostly make use of American English - not the international standard.  A nationally provided school text book that contains information that is just plain wrong is unforgivable. Where Thai schools employ native English speakers to teach English, they pay very low salaries and thus quite often get people who are not properly qualified teachers.

Many years ago when my then Thai gf was in her final year at Uni, she asked me to help her with some homework, I was shocked at what she was learning - in the UK it would have been aimed at 12 year olds, not someone 10 years older.

I base my conclusions on over 21 years of observations of what goes on in Thailand and I don't believe that Thailand has ever had true democracy. I believe the eductaion system has been deliberately ignored and no more so than in Isaan.  Education is power and the Thai 'Elite' know that - they don't want the children of Isaan to gain too much knowledge because that knowledge would threaten their position.

I think its very sad really because if any country has a chance to really move forward and develop, its Thailand.  In many countries, the transition to an equitable society can be/is very difficult because their societies contain many factions that hold historic hatred of each other. Should their authoritarian systems give way to democracy too quickly - the likelyhood of serious conflict is high (look at the Balkans). I see none of that in Thailand - only a society that can truly develop.

The current 'fake' democratic system in Thailand exists purely to serve the postition of the 'Elite' and their corruption.  It will change, the internet has begun to open the minds of its children but that change is likely to be very slow. Not only the children though - I'm not a fan of social media but I believe that it had a lot to do with Move Forward's election victory. People read social media and are learning things about their own society that they didn't know existed - hence the previous contentment you refered to earlier.

In no way can Thailand be called a 'democracy' when a party that obtained a landslide victory in terms of votes, is denied governance. The fact that people appeared to be content with their 'lot' previously, does not make it fair.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/15/2023 at 6:42 AM, cowslip said:

"Spains few colonies"??? - your information is facile and inaccurate

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You are not paying attention as usual.
In 1898 Spain had only Cuba and Phillipines as major colonies.
Spain America’s colonies all became independent around 1820.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/15/2023 at 6:30 AM, cowslip said:

just illustrates that "IQ" is meaningless, 

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Political rubbish at odds with science

[oldschooler]

  On 8/15/2023 at 1:19 AM, Marc26 said:

My wife desperately wanted my stepson to go to the Thai Air Force Academy 

And it was made known the starting bid for that was 500,000 baht

I told my wife I'd never want him in that sort of environment where bribes need to be paid 

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Western Citizenship Required for fulfilment of Dreams & Ambition.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/15/2023 at 9:21 AM, KhaoYai said:

I am speaking from general knowledge. Of course I don't know what goes on in every country or how good their education facilities are but there is plenty of evidence available about countries with inferior education systems/outcomes and most of those countries do not enjoy democracy.

You talk about highly skilled migrants coming from countries that don't have a traditional democratic system - highly skilled in what? I am talking about general education at SCHOOL. You state that Australia is seeking skilled migrants from the Middle East, skilled in what?  I'd suggest skilled in a particular trade - trades that are learned after leaving school, not at shool.

The UK also has a skilled migrant programme but it is not looking for shool leavers with good qualifications - it is looking for people with vocational qualifications, ready to go to work. I am yet to see a UK skilled migrant programme that is based on people's academic qualifications and I'd suggest other country's programmes are much the same.

So I don't really understand why we are going off on this tangent - we were talking about the level of education in schools in non-democratic countries and I think we have both stated what we believe to be true on that one.

However, returning closer to topic, I still believe that the education available for free in Thailand is in general very poor and that the Thai 'Elite' have an interest in keeping things that way.  If Thailand had been enjoying true democracy and all that goes with it, the education system would at least have a chance of being far better. Thus enabling social mobility and the general development of the people as a whole, not just the chosen few. Although democracies have their faults, truly democratic societies are far more equitable and decent education is generally available to all - its far from perfect but it is available.

I don't have an 'in depth' experience of 'the Thai education system - more of an overview.  I have seen and still see what the Thai school day consists of and far too much of it is given over to Thai Royal history and Buddha. The days are long and children are often given huge amounts of homework. The quality of what they are taught and I'm refering to English here - because I have no knowledge of the other subjects, is particularly bad.  English text books, written by Thai's, contain glaring mistakes and mostly make use of American English - not the international standard.  A nationally provided school text book that contains information that is just plain wrong is unforgivable. Where Thai schools employ native English speakers to teach English, they pay very low salaries and thus quite often get people who are not properly qualified teachers.

Many years ago when my then Thai gf was in her final year at Uni, she asked me to help her with some homework, I was shocked at what she was learning - in the UK it would have been aimed at 12 year olds, not someone 10 years older.

I base my conclusions on over 21 years of observations of what goes on in Thailand and I don't believe that Thailand has ever had true democracy. I believe the eductaion system has been deliberately ignored and no more so than in Isaan.  Education is power and the Thai 'Elite' know that - they don't want the children of Isaan to gain too much knowledge because that knowledge would threaten their position.

I think its very sad really because if any country has a chance to really move forward and develop, its Thailand.  In many countries, the transition to an equitable society can be/is very difficult because their societies contain many factions that hold historic hatred of each other. Should their authoritarian systems give way to democracy too quickly - the likelyhood of serious conflict is high (look at the Balkans). I see none of that in Thailand - only a society that can truly develop.

The current 'fake' democratic system in Thailand exists purely to serve the postition of the 'Elite' and their corruption.  It will change, the internet has begun to open the minds of its children but that change is likely to be very slow. Not only the children though - I'm not a fan of social media but I believe that it had a lot to do with Move Forward's election victory. People read social media and are learning things about their own society that they didn't know existed - hence the previous contentment you refered to earlier.

In no way can Thailand be called a 'democracy' when a party that obtained a landslide victory in terms of votes, is denied governance. The fact that people appeared to be content with their 'lot' previously, does not make it fair.

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Excellent Empirical Experience Piece.

Quite Wrong however that “ Thailand has a strong chance to progress”. No It Doesn’t ( Culture Obstacle). 

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/15/2023 at 9:57 AM, oldschooler said:

Quite Wrong however that “ Thailand has a strong chance to progress”. No It Doesn’t ( Culture Obstacle). 

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Are you refering to 'idleness' - I hadn't factored that in .

[palooka]

  On 8/15/2023 at 9:21 AM, KhaoYai said:

English text books, written by Thai's, contain glaring mistakes and mostly make use of American English - not the international standard. 

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Sadly these were in some cases written by unqualified Americans who may have been doped to the eyeballs when they wrote them.

Stepdaughter in Uni asked for help with her English Exam due the next day, I helped and after asked how she went with the exam. 59%.  Stunned I reviewed her exam and answers and was disgusted to find that most of the answers in THE BOOK didn't correspond with the questions. 

I went to the Uni, as I had met and spoken with the teacher prior and queried what had happened.

He showed me the text of question-and-answer page and I pointed out that they were wrong.

He then stated that he was aware they were wrong but was not allowed to change them. 

His boss (who I found out later bought his position) was sticking to the text as is.

Thais have no hope under this system.

[palooka]

  On 8/15/2023 at 6:30 AM, cowslip said:

just illustrates that "IQ" is meaningless, 

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I don't think IQ ratings are meaningless, they are a tool to help in accessing a person's mental capability in critical areas in society.

Do you just hire Joe Blog to do disaster control and millions die because you hired an idiot who was a mate or slipped you a few hundred thousand for the job?

Buying a position is a common practise in Thailand, used mainly by Dumber and Dumber families in Thailand and you use the roads they build, raised motorways (many collapse) and maybe use their public transport.

Do you really feel safe? 

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/15/2023 at 12:18 PM, palooka said:

Sadly these were in some cases written by unqualified Americans who may have been doped to the eyeballs when they wrote them.

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I don't doubt what you say but the ones I saw were written by Thai authors.

[HolyCowCm]

  On 8/15/2023 at 12:18 PM, palooka said:

Sadly these were in some cases written by unqualified Americans who may have been doped to the eyeballs when they wrote them.

Stepdaughter in Uni asked for help with her English Exam due the next day, I helped and after asked how she went with the exam. 59%.  Stunned I reviewed her exam and answers and was disgusted to find that most of the answers in THE BOOK didn't correspond with the questions. 

I went to the Uni, as I had met and spoken with the teacher prior and queried what had happened.

He showed me the text of question-and-answer page and I pointed out that they were wrong.

He then stated that he was aware they were wrong but was not allowed to change them. 

His boss (who I found out later bought his position) was sticking to the text as is.

Thais have no hope under this system.

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I came across this BS for my kids in grade and high school here. The test Contana had no relation to what was in the actual book.. and then some questions weren’t actually the right answers that were in the book. In the end, there was nothing you could do because the teacher was always right and the school was always right and then there have the power to toss your kids out. Wasn’t every class and every teacher or even every test, just was a sometimes as an every so often on a really important exam that was important for points affecting your overall semester grade.  

[Metoo]

  On 8/15/2023 at 9:21 AM, KhaoYai said:

I base my conclusions on over 21 years of observations of what goes on in Thailand and I don't believe that Thailand has ever had true democracy. I believe the eductaion system has been deliberately ignored and no more so than in Isaan.  Education is power and the Thai 'Elite' know that - they don't want the children of Isaan to gain too much knowledge because that knowledge would threaten their position.

The current 'fake' democratic system in Thailand exists purely to serve the postition of the 'Elite' and their corruption.  It will change, the internet has begun to open the minds of its children but that change is likely to be very slow. Not only the children though - I'm not a fan of social media but I believe that it had a lot to do with Move Forward's election victory. People read social media and are learning things about their own society that they didn't know existed - hence the previous contentment you refered to earlier.

In no way can Thailand be called a 'democracy' when a party that obtained a landslide victory in terms of votes, is denied governance. The fact that people appeared to be content with their 'lot' previously, does not make it fair.

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Absolutely spot on, I have observed exactly the same, you absolutely nailed it.....well said.