Time to dissolve the Catholic Church

[Marc26]

32 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Well, seems they can separate the meaning behind it all from the incredibly flawed institution.  I am fully on board with holding the Catholic Church responsible for covering up/enabling pedophile priests to prey on children.

I disagree that the dissolution of religions, which would have to be forced, would be a good thing.  Atheistic societies, forced or not, are no healthier and in fact have a far worse track record than religious ones in terms of how they actually treat people.

You've mentioned Atheist societies a couple times

What do you mean by that?

Who and what have they done?

 

That's not a challenge, I am genuine curious because I don't understand what you are talking about 

[ChicagoExpat]

9 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

You've mentioned Atheist societies a couple times

What do you mean by that?

Who and what have they done?

That's not a challenge, I am genuine curious because I don't understand what you are talking about 

Well, I'm thinking of the Soviet Union, China, Albania, North Korea, Cuba, etc etc.  As an older guy of course I knew on an intellectual basis that this occurred, but it wasn't until I lived in Russia for a number of years that I got to see, close up, the effects.  Having heard in fora like these, more times than I can count, how much the better the world would be if we just got rid of religion, I have come to believe that this would actually make things far worse.

[Marc26]

57 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Well, I'm thinking of the Soviet Union, China, Albania, North Korea, Cuba, etc etc.  As an older guy of course I knew on an intellectual basis that this occurred, but it wasn't until I lived in Russia for a number of years that I got to see, close up, the effects.  Having heard in fora like these, more times than I can count, how much the better the world would be if we just got rid of religion, I have come to believe that this would actually make things far worse.

I honestly never even thought about those but they are obvious good points 

[Pinetree]

All religions need to be dissolved. They have collectively caused more death, heartbreak, misery, cruelty, despair, wars, hunger, exploitation, downright evil, than any other cause. A Plague on all their houses. 

[oldschooler]

11 hours ago, Marc26 said:

That's like saying an individual raped kids but he served at a soup kitchen so it all evens out

I don't disagree the Church can do good things but that can't excuse them covering up raping kids

And they covered it up at the highest level

And as for the Church doing good things

That often do so to coerce people into their religion, which I am not a fan of 

The late great Chris Hitchens debated this subject ( You Tube video) and expounded  a list of crimes and atrocities against humanity by the Catholic Church so heinous, evil, systemic and extensive that it would have humiliated the combined similar efforts of Hitler- Stalin -Mao.
 

Scaring And Raping Kids, Speading Terror & Lies, Denying Science, Inquistion, Execution of Great Thinkers & Scientists , Working with Fascists, Holding Back Humanity for Hundreds of Years, Ordering Massacres & Genocide of Indigenous South Americans , Forcible Religious Conversion, Systemic Child Rape. Industrial Abuse of Power, Interference in Politics & Government, Corruption , Living Like Princes, Acquiring Massive Land Holdings & Wealth and Misuse by not using those to Advance & Benefit Humanity. 
Did some Good? So did the Nazis with Public Works & Employment during Depression etc. but we don’t ignore their huge crimes and adore and revere them do we ? 

[Marc26]

45 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

The late great Chris Hitchens debated this subject ( You Tube video) and expounded  a list of crimes and atrocities against humanity by the Catholic Church so heinous, evil, systemic and extensive that it would have humiliated the combined similar efforts of Hitler- Stalin -Mao.
 

Scaring And Raping Kids, Speading Terror & Lies, Denying Science, Inquistion, Execution of Great Thinkers & Scientists , Working with Fascists, Holding Back Humanity for Hundreds of Years, Ordering Massacres & Genocide of Indigenous South Americans , Forcible Religious Conversion, Systemic Child Rape. Industrial Abuse of Power, Interference in Politics & Government, Corruption , Living Like Princes, Acquiring Massive Land Holdings & Wealth and Misuse by not using those to Advance & Benefit Humanity. 
Did some Good? So did the Nazis with Public Works & Employment during Depression etc. but we don’t ignore their huge crimes and adore and revere them do we ? 

See what the Catholic Church can do.............it makes me and @oldschooler agree   :)

[Sawarot]

12 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Well, I'm thinking of the Soviet Union, China, Albania, North Korea, Cuba, etc etc.  As an older guy of course I knew on an intellectual basis that this occurred, but it wasn't until I lived in Russia for a number of years that I got to see, close up, the effects.  Having heard in fora like these, more times than I can count, how much the better the world would be if we just got rid of religion, I have come to believe that this would actually make things far worse.

I don't think that's a relevant point.

But we wouldn't have to ban religion in order to ge rid of the catholic church. We could just apply the laws to the organisation as if it were the company that it is, instead of giving it all the benefits of being seen as a religious institution. 

1. The church is obviously running a scam. They are collecting money while promising the delivery of something intangible after the customer is dead. This should definitely not be allowed. Charge the organisation with fraud.

2. Demand to get the territory of the Vatican back. It was unlawfully given to the organisation by Mussolini.

3. Tax them into oblivion. Stop making faith-based commercial entities (churched) tax-exempt. That is ludicrous.

[Grumpish]

12 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Having heard in fora like these, more times than I can count, how much the better the world would be if we just got rid of religion, I have come to believe that this would actually make things far worse.

The relationship between morals and ethics, and religion, is a debate that has preoccupied the minds of many great philosophers over many centuries. Then stir in conflicts between different religions, and between different ideologies, and it all gets very confused. Religion as a personal belief does not need to be abolished - but religions being in bed with the state does, religions being allowed to have rights and privileges beyond those of the individual does.  

[Guest1]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:13 AM, ChicagoExpat said:

Not at all, and I never objected to that.  I'll go out on a limb and say I'm in favor of nobody raping kids.  Bold stance, no?
Pointing out the problem is people.  Responding to stuff like:

To be honest I believe that the best scenario for the world would be the dissolution of ALL organised religions.
 

Religions have the advantage of being old! Some really old.

And they did grow from "earth is flat" to "spoiler, the earth is round"

If you would found them now, they would only get the title "cult" 

And just get a permille of followers.

And the governments would not let scientology  or jehova´s witnesses let interfere with there laws or rulings.

In best case, they would tell them, to keep it privat.

(Old) Religions are the modern scourges.

Scourges, not even the "modern world ´" has really a cure for!

[Guest1]

13 hours ago, Vigo said:

It has been the religious organization who run the soup kitchens and offer outreach to the druggies and drunks.

But you know, in some western countries, the Church is not paying the bills for it. They get  funded from the governments!

Or why do you think, that this church is assumingly  the richest in the world?

[Guest1]

10 hours ago, Pinetree said:

All religions need to be dissolved. They have collectively caused more death, heartbreak, misery, cruelty, despair, wars, hunger, exploitation, downright evil, than any other cause. A Plague on all their houses. 

And right now, the two big western churches are clearing the ground, for that the "freedom religion". So that it  can soon outnumber them!

Clever, isn`t it? Right, it isn`t!

[23RD]

After recent events in Israel, Belgium and France and also events in Western Europe, North America and The Middle East over the last 30 years or more its probably not the Catholic Church that needs to dissolve or any other Christian Church. 

It's another certain religion that needs to be dissolved we don't see Christian fanatics running around murdering People now do we.

[Pinetree]

50 minutes ago, 23RD said:

It's another certain religion that needs to be dissolved we don't see Christian fanatics running around murdering People now do we.

No, as they are too busy ripping off the poor, adding to the spread of diseases and unaffordable children by stopping contraception in the ignorant,  and of course,  fiddling with kids. No time for murder,  as they did enough of that in centuries past, they have moved on since then.  

[23RD]

26 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

No, as they are too busy ripping off the poor, adding to the spread of diseases and unaffordable children by stopping contraception in the ignorant,  and of course,  fiddling with kids. No time for murder,  as they did enough of that in centuries past, they have moved on since then.  

The less of two evils Pinetree Bud .

I'm not very religious Church of Wales (I think) the only time I've been to Chapel was Xmas Carol services in The Army and a few Military funerals but everything you've stated above happens in another certain religion will the inclusion of mass murder and terrorism.

And being a UK native like myself Pinetree you're well aware  of the grooming gangs (and weren't Christians).

[TWS60]

Soft targets. 

One of several things that puts me off about (western) Organized Religion LLC, is the virtue signaling and deceptive marketing facade of 'helping' people who are vulnerable and thus susceptible to being exploited in a moment of need/weakness. 

IMV, the underlying motive is competition between Corporations for dominance/market share in the multi-billion dollar global Industry.  Bigger membership numbers, more money, and humans are impressed and persuaded by that.   Millions upon millions of people can't be wrong...... can they?  

Strings attached.  No free lunch.

The representative image in my head is a (western) missionary deployed by HQ to a backwater village in the Amazon said to be suffering a famine (for example).  Missionary rocks up unannounced and uninvited with a bag of cheese burgers, sees the villagers' eyes light up, and senses he's got the advantage and leverage. "Yes, my children, I have come to deliver the life sustaining food you need so desperately right now, but first... have you heard the good news?"

Although things can go pear shaped for amateur god whisperers if their intended victims don't go along with the program.   Apparently some are quite happy with their invisible god in the jungle, and want nothing to do with the white man's invisible god who lives in the clouds.

[Vigo]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:31 AM, Guest1 said:

But you know, in some western countries, the Church is not paying the bills for it. They get  funded from the governments!

Or why do you think, that this church is assumingly  the richest in the world?

Yes, the religious groups can and do receive funding. However, much of the funding comes from the private donors, or registered religious charities. They also do it in a more cost effective manner.  The volunteers come from the faith groups. I don't know if you have ever volunteered at some of these soup kitchens. It is not easy to deal with society's rejects, losers, failures, trash and ill.  One Christmas, my sister thought it was a good idea to volunteer at the local Church . Her reward was a punch in the face from a psycho who didn't like the meal.  It takes a special type of person to volunteer to help the world's outcasts, and religious faith is their shield, and strength against the depression and despair that goes with it. The established mainstream religious organizations have been carrying the burden of western society for centuries. In Thailand, the local wat is the destination of last resort for a meal or shelter, but the wat will usually help a genuine person in need.

I hope that you never are in such deep trouble that you need the help of others.

[Marc26]

40 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Yes, the religious groups can and do receive funding. However, much of the funding comes from the private donors, or registered religious charities. They also do it in a more cost effective manner.  The volunteers come from the faith groups. I don't know if you have ever volunteered at some of these soup kitchens. It is not easy to deal with society's rejects, losers, failures, trash and ill.  One Christmas, my sister thought it was a good idea to volunteer at the local Church . Her reward was a punch in the face from a psycho who didn't like the meal.  It takes a special type of person to volunteer to help the world's outcasts, and religious faith is their shield, and strength against the depression and despair that goes with it. The established mainstream religious organizations have been carrying the burden of western society for centuries. In Thailand, the local wat is the destination of last resort for a meal or shelter, but the wat will usually help a genuine person in need.

I hope that you never are in such deep trouble that you need the help of others.

Their biggest "funding" comes from their tax exempt status as a Church which(shockingly) they repeatedly violate the terms of that by wading into politics all the time

 

 

And I will keep going back to applying the same judgement an individual would get

 

If an individual raped kids, we wouldn't say "yeah, but he works at a soup kitchen"

 

So we shouldn't give the Catholic Church or Christians that cover....................

[rkhguy]

I grew up in a conservative Catholic family in a conservative Catholic community.

I tried to give faith a fair trial cuz it was expected of me but it just didn't take.

I jokingly tell people who ask about the abuse in our community that I feel rejected cuz I went to Catholic school and was even an altar boy but was never sexually abused.

IMHO there are several hurdles to getting Catholics to see what has gone on and what continues to go on.

The first is complete denial. The mindset of a lot of religious people is such that they just cannot conceive that their trusted priest did something wrong. They just ignore/deny/explain away what they are told.

The second point is more subtle in a way. There are degrees of sexual repression and some are extreme.

Among many Catholics of my parent's generation in my community even husband and wife did not and could not talk to each other about sex in any way. My generation (born in 1955) are more open but not everyone.

Kids within families and families within communities who report the offenses of priests are breaking a taboo and often they are looked at as the offenders by speaking about the unspeakable.

But the main point is that priests offenses are talked of in euphemisms. Father Pedo "overstepped some boundaries" parishioners are told. This is so strange that offending priests sometimes have well-attended farewell events when they are banished.

People are told that the priest "overstepped some boundaries" or similar euphemisms when they need to know that Father Pedo anally and orally raped numerous young boys.

If their offenses are left to the imagination the religious taboos prevent the faithful church goers from facing reality.

I heard a about a man who tracked down his abuser and contacted him saying he wanted to talk.

When Father Pedo showed up the man kicked his ass. I say good for him

 

[Pinetree]

22 minutes ago, rkhguy said:

I grew up in a conservative Catholic family in a conservative Catholic community.

I tried to give faith a fair trial cuz it was expected of me but it just didn't take.

I jokingly tell people who ask about the abuse in our community that I feel rejected cuz I went to Catholic school and was even an altar boy but was never sexually abused.

IMHO there are several hurdles to getting Catholics to see what has gone on and what continues to go on.

The first is complete denial. The mindset of a lot of religious people is such that they just cannot conceive that their trusted priest did something wrong. They just ignore/deny/explain away what they are told.

The second point is more subtle in a way. There are degrees of sexual repression and some are extreme.

Among many Catholics of my parent's generation in my community even husband and wife did not and could not talk to each other about sex in any way. My generation (born in 1955) are more open but not everyone.

Kids within families and families within communities who report the offenses of priests are breaking a taboo and often they are looked at as the offenders by speaking about the unspeakable.

But the main point is that priests offenses are talked of in euphemisms. Father Pedo "overstepped some boundaries" parishioners are told. This is so strange that offending priests sometimes have well-attended farewell events when they are banished.

People are told that the priest "overstepped some boundaries" or similar euphemisms when they need to know that Father Pedo anally and orally raped numerous young boys.

If their offenses are left to the imagination the religious taboos prevent the faithful church goers from facing reality.

I heard a about a man who tracked down his abuser and contacted him saying he wanted to talk.

When Father Pedo showed up the man kicked his ass. I say good for him

Belief in a mythical God figure, for which there is absolutely no evidence and for which there is no requirement in science or nature,  is a form of mass delusion, boarding on mental illness. To then use it as a means of mass control and manipulation, a real talent in all religions,   is just plain evil. I naturally distrust any follower of organised religion, as suspect in logical thinking and judgement. Believe what you like, but avoid the evil of those who are the manipulators in organised cult like belief . 

[Grumpish]

26 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

Belief in a mythical God figure, for which there is absolutely no evidence and for which there is no requirement in science or nature,  is a form of mass delusion, boarding on mental illness. To then use it as a means of mass control and manipulation is just plain evil. I naturally distrust any religious person, as suspect in logical thinking and judgement.

We are actually wired for belief in sky fairies, the same way that some people are wired to believe in assorted conspiracy theories, bigfoot, alien abductions, and so on. Some people are able to filter out the nonsensical, some learn to - an education that includes learning the basics of scientific method helps there, others never do. My take is that people can believe whatever they want to, as long as they don't expect any special rights or privileges, don't expect me to tiptoe round their beliefs, and don't expect me to live my life according to their religious rules (for example there are thirteen countries that in theory have the death penalty for atheism - yes, they are all Islamic theocracies).

[Pinetree]

7 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

We are actually wired for belief in sky fairies,

I am not 

[Pinetree]

8 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

We are actually wired for belief in sky fairies, the same way that some people are wired to believe in assorted conspiracy theories, bigfoot, alien abductions, and so on. Some people are able to filter out the nonsensical, some learn to - an education that includes learning the basics of scientific method helps there, others never do. My take is that people can believe whatever they want to, as long as they don't expect any special rights or privileges, don't expect me to tiptoe round their beliefs, and don't expect me to live my life according to their religious rules (for example there are thirteen countries that in theory have the death penalty for atheism - yes, they are all Islamic theocracies).

That is very balanced of you.  For me, they are  all an existential risk to the future of humanity and will, in any probability, aid the eventual extinction of the species. Politicians of all colours and creeds aid and abet them and that is cowardly and a shirking of their responsibility.  The C of E, for example,  have no right to be a part of the fabric of the 'establishment' in the UK, or lunatic Mullers running Countries, or the Catholic Church holding many millions of the poor and uneducated to ransom with their weird beliefs and dictates on family contraception and other nonsense and this  from supposed celibates' at that. To take your very valid point; it is for those of us who are educated,  to try to open the eyes of all those who are not. Some call this militant atheism, I call it a public and social duty. 

[rkhguy]

1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

Belief in a mythical God figure, for which there is absolutely no evidence and for which there is no requirement in science or nature,  is a form of mass delusion, boarding on mental illness. To then use it as a means of mass control and manipulation, a real talent in all religions,   is just plain evil. I naturally distrust any follower of organised religion, as suspect in logical thinking and judgement. Believe what you like, but avoid the evil of those who are the manipulators in organised cult like belief . 

I am curious who you are talking to as your little manifesto is not even tangentially related to my post.

 

[Pinetree]

1 minute ago, rkhguy said:

I am curious who you are talking to as your little manifesto is not even tangentially related to my post.

Oh dear, you are going to be one of those are you?  I'm not singling out the Catholic Church in isolation but putting it in the context of all religions. I would have thought that was obvious. 

[Pinetree]

5 minutes ago, rkhguy said:

I am curious who you are talking to as your little manifesto is not even tangentially related to my post.

Oh dear, you are going to be one of those are you?  I'm not singling out the Catholic Church in isolation but putting it in the context of all religions. I would have thought that was obvious.