Time to dissolve the Catholic Church

[Shade_Wilder]

 

(Image from Justiceinfo.net, link below)

It is time to dissolve the Catholic Church.

First, it needs to be clear that this post is not an attack on Religious Freedoms or Beliefs, it is an attack on the structure, behavior and rules surrounding the Catholic Church. 

Catholicism has always baffled me; a young girl got pregnant without having sex, her husband bought that tale, the child was the Son of God who worked for thirty years or so then died an excruciating death but got better, all for my benefit. Hmm... And, every Sunday congregants gather to symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of the aforementioned dead guy who got better. Double hmm...

The impetus for this post was an article by Reuters (link below) about the Church in Spain and how investigators found horrible abuse;

"MADRID, June 2 (Reuters) - An investigation by the Spanish Catholic Church into child sexual abuse by members of the clergy and non-clerical staff has so far identified 728 alleged abusers and 927 victims since the 1940s, according to its first report."

This is a shocking headline, but it isn't an uncommon one. Another report in Forbes (link below) regarding the situation last year was even worse;

"At Least 330,000 Minors Were Victims Of Sex Abuse In The French Catholic Church Since 1950, Report Finds"

An article on Wikipedia (link below) goes through the news from many, many countries;

"There have been many cases of sexual abuse of children by priests, nuns, and other members of religious life in the Catholic Church. In the 20th and 21st centuries, the cases have involved many allegations, investigations, trials, convictions, acknowledgement and apologies by Church authorities, and revelations about decades of instances of abuse and attempts by Church officials to cover them up.[3] The abused include mostly boys but also girls, some as young as three years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14.[4][5][6][7] Criminal cases for the most part do not cover sexual harassment of adults. The accusations of abuse and cover-ups began to receive public attention during the late 1980s.[8] Many of these cases allege decades of abuse, frequently made by adults or older youths years after the abuse occurred. Cases have also been brought against members of the Catholic hierarchy who covered up sex abuse allegations and moved abusive priests to other parishes, where abuse continued.[9][10]"

An article by Justiceinfo.net (link below) looks at investigations world-wide;

"With tens of thousands of victims worldwide over several decades, sexual abuse by members of the Catholic Church is an unprecedented issue of justice. In order to reveal and confront the magnitude of the crimes, many transitional justice mechanisms are at work, including expert reports, commissions of inquiry, truth commissions and trials. Justice Info here publishes a world map of this fragmented, highly sensitive, often innovative justice in the face of an extraordinary institutional crime."

Do all of these articles demonstrate that the world is getting clear and concise information on the issue? The short answer is no. It seems that data is being produced in countries that have independent, outside investigations into abuse in the Catholic Church, but little data is coming from countries that allow the Church to run its own investigation or that are unduly influenced by the Catholic Church itself (this kind of lack of investigations will be familiar to Thai expats) . The conclusion of the bishopaccountability.org site (link below) analysis notes;

"All of this means that the Catholic stats are hugely undercounted, and I conclude that paedophilia is a problem far more prevalent than in the general population, despite organisational attempts to tell you otherwise.

As Anri states, perhaps this article should be more obviously titled: “Are Catholic Clergy more Likely to Be Paedophiles protected from prosecution for sex crimes and moved to another location of opportunity by a huge wealthy international organization claiming to be the one true moral compass for the world than the General Public?”

To which the answer is a resounding:

Yes.

Yes they are.

And there is no spin able to cover that up."

It would not be difficult to cite another hundred articles on sexual abuse in the Catholic Church; a simple Google search would keep you busy all day.

The question that needs to be asked is this; given that virtually everywhere the Catholic Church has been investigated for sexual crimes many, many have been found, why is the Catholic Church as an organization still permitted to function, unscathed?

If the United Nation Development Program (UNDP) had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If FIFA had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If Carrefour, the French retailer and wholesaler, had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If the International Snooker Federation had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If Greenpeace had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If CNN International had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If the Commonwealth had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

So, why not the Catholic Church? Why isn't it declared a criminal organization, its assets sold off to compensate its victims, and dissolved? The Catholic Church (and everyone on the planet) has been aware of the rampant sexual abuse/pedophilia committed by its employees for decades, if not longer. It has been allowed to 'clean itself up', but its efforts were/are minimal, grossly inadequate and ineffective.

The time has come to treat the Catholic Church as a global protector/haven for pedophiles and dissolve it, ASAP. If the membership then wishes to re-build a Church without the pedophilia, then that'd be fine by me, once all claims have been settled and all pedophiles expunged and jailed.

If not now, when? And, if not now, how many more children will be abused while we wait?

Some reading...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-catholic-church-finds-hundreds-alleged-child-abusers-over-eight-decades-2023-06-02/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-catholic-church-finds-hundreds-alleged-child-abusers-over-eight-decades-2023-06-02/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#:~:text=The report estimates that 216%2C000,of the victims were boys.

https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/45133-sexual-abuse-church-map-justice-worldwide.html

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/2021/03/are-catholic-clergy-more-likely-to-be-paedophiles-than-the-general-public-redux/

 

 

 

 

[Smithydog]

Simply as an organisation, there is much that I would agree with you about what you have raised.

However, belief, especially religious belief is a powerful driver for so many people and provides comfort in their daily lives. We hear about the bad but often overlook the good it can provide.

I am not a fan personally of organised religion. I was raised an Anglican, even taught Sunday School and sang in the church choir. My wife is a Buddhist and I have learnt enough to show respect, but not a convert for sure.

A simple dissolve is not the answer, but I do believe the Church must reform. No longer handling any criminality inside closed doors, they must become the reporting agency for such matters and seek to clear out the bad ones. Using their religious beliefs and “uniforms” can not be accepted as any protective form.

Freeing priests to marry, modernising the celibacy standards they have had, would be a good first step helping Priests to normalise their lives. 

[Grumpish]

I have been an atheist since before I even knew the word, let alone what it meant. so have no axe to grind with any particular cult or creed. But in the case of the Catholic Church it seems like a significant amount  of the problem with addressing the issues comes from denial that they exist from both the congregation and the priesthood.  

[Shade_Wilder]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

Simply as an organisation, there is much that I would agree with you about what you have raised.

However, belief, especially religious belief is a powerful driver for so many people and provides comfort in their daily lives. We hear about the bad but often overlook the good it can provide.

I am not a fan personally of organised religion. I was raised an Anglican, even taught Sunday School and sang in the church choir. My wife is a Buddhist and I have learnt enough to show respect, but not a convert for sure.

A simple dissolve is not the answer, but I do believe the Church must reform. No longer handling any criminality inside closed doors, they must become the reporting agency for such matters and seek to clear out the bad ones. Using their religious beliefs and “uniforms” can not be accepted as any protective form.

Freeing priests to marry, modernising the celibacy standards they have had, would be a good first step helping Priests to normalise their lives. 

You have posted a good post, Mr Dog, but respectfully with two glaring flaws; action and timing.

I doubt that anyone would dispute that the Catholic Church has done some good things and that it must reform; that is a given.

However, I would argue that the Catholic Church has already been given a great deal of time and leeway to deal with the issue of pedophilia/child molestation within its ranks but has not done so satisfactorily.

One example among many; in my native country of Canada there was a truly horrific scandal of abuse at a place called the Mount Cashel Orphanage (see links below). The story broke in 1989, there was a Royal Commission set up to investigate, there was an Archdiocesan Commission of Enquiry, and the issue was in the newspapers for years. In that particular case, the Orphanage in question was razed to the ground and some compensation was given (good thing). However, the Order that ran the Orphanage declared bankruptcy in 2011 leaving 422 outstanding claims by abused people. Moreover, many of the Catholic pedophiles from Mount Cashel were transferred to another part of the country where they continued their abuse (Wikipedia and CBC link below) up to at least 2022.

To sum up, this ONE case in Canada demonstrates that the Catholic Church has known of horrific abuses since the 70s, but has not dealt with the problem. And, while this is ONE example from Canada, a wee bit of research will tell similar tales in many countries around the globe.

So, my questions are these...

How much more time are you willing to give the Catholic Church to reform itself?

How many child molestations are you willing to countenance while waiting for the Catholic Church to reform?

Yes, dissolving the Catholic Church IS an extreme act, but what more evidence would you need to agree that it is time for extreme measures?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage

https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/politics/wells-government-mt-cashel.php

 

[Smithydog]

I don’t dispute the passion or righteousness of your argument. It is all about practicality! If I had my way, the police and other law enforcement would tear them apart. But even 20 years after the Spotlight team at the Boston Globe revealed the extent of abuse, little realistically has changed, as pointed out in this article.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/20-years-after-boston-globes-spotlight-we-need-national-database-accused-clergy

However, no matter the strength of the argument, we are talking about an organisation that has been around in one form or another for 1700 years and has over 1.3 billion baptised followers with its own recognised country, albeit a city state. How many Politicians alone would be sponsored even by their faith, just to stall such a step?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

You cite Canada as an example, and my own country amongst others have had similar issues. But in Canada, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom, the following applies:

“Under section 2 of the Charter, Canadians are free to follow the religion of their choice.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/how-rights-protected/guide-canadian-charter-rights-freedoms.html#

Those following the faith will raise this as an argument. They would delay any action, challenge it to the highest courts, all the time taking the focus away from what actually needs to be done.

Similar things exist across the world. The practicality of doing what you say is the real challenge, not your arguments for wanting to do it. 

You might like to have a read of the following article. It has some good reading on what the Church has done when challenged and just highlights some of the issues faced when the Church sees its position challenged.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/catholic-church-changes-roe-v-wade-pope-francis/672235/

Revolutions start with one objecting voice. But in this case the revolution has wavered and internal reform may be the only viable option. Keep the pressure on though!

[Faraday]

I was brought up as a Catholic, & luckily not abused physically, although at times the Nuns & Father's, took delight in chastising me & my sister.

 

She was told at 14, that if she "kissed a boy, she would get pregnant!".

However, she discovered quite quickly, that this wasn't true.

No need to document all the badness, I & many others experienced. But some of the teachings & pontifical statements, had quite a profound negative effect on me.

 

I agree with Smithydog, that the issues are with organised Religion & the power they hold. 

The Vatican's wealth, is estimated to be $15 billion- can't see that's right:At all.

There are many good Nuns & Monks though & do a lot of good & do help many people.

I don't think it should be disbanded however, but a lot more openess & control needs to be exercised.

https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,833509,00.html

[Shade_Wilder]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

I don’t dispute the passion or righteousness of your argument. It is all about practicality! If I had my way, the police and other law enforcement would tear them apart. But even 20 years after the Spotlight team at the Boston Globe revealed the extent of abuse, little realistically has changed, as pointed out in this article.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/20-years-after-boston-globes-spotlight-we-need-national-database-accused-clergy

However, no matter the strength of the argument, we are talking about an organisation that has been around in one form or another for 1700 years and has over 1.3 billion baptised followers with its own recognised country, albeit a city state. How many Politicians alone would be sponsored even by their faith, just to stall such a step?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

You cite Canada as an example, and my own country amongst others have had similar issues. But in Canada, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom, the following applies:

“Under section 2 of the Charter, Canadians are free to follow the religion of their choice.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/how-rights-protected/guide-canadian-charter-rights-freedoms.html#

Those following the faith will raise this as an argument. They would delay any action, challenge it to the highest courts, all the time taking the focus away from what actually needs to be done.

Similar things exist across the world. The practicality of doing what you say is the real challenge, not your arguments for wanting to do it. 

You might like to have a read of the following article. It has some good reading on what the Church has done when challenged and just highlights some of the issues faced when the Church sees its position challenged.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/01/catholic-church-changes-roe-v-wade-pope-francis/672235/

Revolutions start with one objecting voice. But in this case the revolution has wavered and internal reform may be the only viable option. Keep the pressure on though!

 

Another good post, Mr Dog, but again (respectfully) with a few flaws.

Towards the end of your post, you mention that "...internal reform may be the only viable option". Forgive me, but when one does research into this subject, the idea that the Catholic Church will deal with this problem internally is frankly laughable. Opportunity after opportunity after opportunity after opportunity going back decade after decade after decade after decade to reform has been presented but not taken up and, again respectfully, banging one's head against a wall accomplishes nothing other than causing a headache.

Moreover, I don't think you quite get how the Freedom of Religion clause in the Canadian (and other) Constitution works. It does allow a person to believe what they want (good thing), but doesn't allow a religious organization to do whatever they want without consequence. For example, if I were to found the Church of the Blessed Shade which included Virgin Sacrifice and practiced my "faith", the police, the courts and the prison guards would have a good chuckle as they led me to my cell, welded the door shut and tossed out the key. That said, I do understand your notion that the words "Freedom of Religion" would be repeated ad nauseum by 'Talking Heads' on television. Shakespeare should have said "...Kill all the Lawyers AND the PR/Party flacks..."

The answer is through the courts, both national and international, with the concepts of 'Conspiracy' and 'Class Action', and all it really takes is one case which 'Blazes the Trail'. Yup, go after the money and collective responsibility in a big way. No settlements, no forced arbitration, no NDAs, as these are means to protect the powerful, but one good court judgement that can be cited by others and the whole proverbial 'Ball of Yarn' will begin to unravel. Is it 'doable'? Yes. One precedent that withstands an Appellate Court is the bludgeon, and once the doors are forced open and the funds threatened, even the Church itself will realize that the status quo isn't feasible and the options are reform or die. But, until then...

We are very much in agreement on many aspects of this issue, but I don't share your hesitancy. Big Tabacco thought they were invincible, but they weren't, Big God may think that they are invincible, but they aren't. It just needs that first foot in the door.

As a side note, I would like to add that I respect your contention on the good that religion can do. A few years back I was working in Indonesia when my housekeeper's husband ran off leaving her with four kids and no cash. She was always serene about it (that drove me nuts) and one day I asked her how she could be so calm. Her answer was simple "it is the way of Allah" and then she smiled that damn smile again. I keep in touch and she still is hanging on, raising her kids, and doing well all because of her faith. Honestly, sometimes I am a bit jealous as I don't share a faith. I have several other religious anecdotes from my life, but that is my favourite.

A pleasant Sunday to you and yours!

 

[Vigo]

There are approx. 1.36 billion people who identify as Catholic. I doubt very much  you will receive support from the group. However, I do send my regards and ask that you check in once you have launched your campaign.

I do wonder why you picked the Catholics and not say  the Shiites. Is it because Christians today don't have fatwahs and you won't have to live in  fear for your life?

[Pinetree]

8 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

I doubt that anyone would dispute that the Catholic Church has done some good things

I would, they are a corrupt abomination and have done so much damage over hundreds of years; the Inquisition, the exploitation of the Worlds poorest over hundreds of years, stopping millions getting much needed contraception due to their twisted views on all things sextual, their actions against AIDS prevention, collaborating with the Nazis, even electing one of them as their Pope, that's before we get on to historic child abuse on a truly massive scale. Oh, and remember the Borgias? It's a sick joke. I have no time for any religions, but that lot are among the worst affliction on humanity. 

Hope I haven't undersold my views?  

[Smithydog]

Here are some recent "wins" against the Catholic Church in Australia that may interest you.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/06/victoria-to-abolish-ellis-defence-that-protects-church-assets-from-abuse-victim-claims

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/03/victorian-court-upholds-ruling-that-catholic-church-liable-for-sexual-abuse-by-paedophlie-priest

You may also be interested in the final report of the Royal Commission on Child Abuse which made a large number of recommendations. Unfortunately, the Church could not see its way clearly to accept the recommendations around the confessional and celibacy. 

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/final_report_-_recommendations.pdf

(Note The Catholic Church recommendations start from page 51!)

[Marc26]

I've been saying this for years

 

I come from  Catholic family

 

I went to Catholic school

 

But I haven't been to a mass in over 30 years

 

And I've been saying it should be disbanded

 

I've recently made the decision I will never step foot in a church for any reasons

 

Weddings.....I will see you at the reception 

Funerals.....I will mourn you on my own terms(this one will be tougher than Weddings)

 

 

But I told my sister because her 2 sons are getting married next year

 

And my other sister was upset as well

 

I didn't say it too forcefully

But I pointed out they have kids, all the Catholics have kids

And they all just shrug off these massive abuses 

 

It's shocking to me

[TWS60]

I adopt and overlay Neil DeGrasse Tyson's POV. 

Believe and do what you want, up to you, but when the nutters get themselves into positions of influence and legislative authority over the rest of us, that requires direct, consistent confrontation. 

Targeting a specific religion/corporation for dissolution is a bridge too far for me personally, but I get it.  Catholic church's historical influence and insidious meddling in state affairs and politics needs to be checked.  Unfortunately the fever dreams of adherents will frame it as an attack on freedom of religion, which it's not.  Defend freedom to practice religion, each to their own, but in simple terms when you walk out of your church, synagogue, temple, mosque - whatever - check your stuff at the door and leave the rest of us alone.  

Edited June 5, 2023 by TWS60

[Shade_Wilder]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:28 PM, Smithydog said:

Here are some recent "wins" against the Catholic Church in Australia that may interest you.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/06/victoria-to-abolish-ellis-defence-that-protects-church-assets-from-abuse-victim-claims

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/03/victorian-court-upholds-ruling-that-catholic-church-liable-for-sexual-abuse-by-paedophlie-priest

You may also be interested in the final report of the Royal Commission on Child Abuse which made a large number of recommendations. Unfortunately, the Church could not see its way clearly to accept the recommendations around the confessional and celibacy. 

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/final_report_-_recommendations.pdf

(Note The Catholic Church recommendations start from page 51!)

 

Many thanks for your post and especially the links included, Mr Dog!

It is Court rulings like these that slowly are chipping away at the Catholic Church's defenses; I am very cognizant that the Church is around 2,000 years old, an Independent State in its own right, and a 'tough nut to crack'. However, a Google search will show that cases like the ones you kindly provided are in the Courts in several countries and are winding their way up to Final Appeals. And, I think that is one of the key elements; in order for any country to make progress in compensating the abused children, you have to beat down the Catholic Church's (proverbial and legal) walls to the highest Appeals Court before you can really make progress.

There is another issue; while I appreciate Australia's effort to see children be dealt with fairly and honourably, Australia isn't important enough for a global impact and a case or better yet cases have to hit the high courts in the US and the EU Court of Justice. First, humble apologies to all my Aussie friends, but the EU and the US are just much bigger than you and the Catholic Church is a formidable opponent. Were I a betting man and if there were a major legal blow to the Catholic Church over its acceptance and cover-ups of Pedophilia and Child Abuse, I think the US is the best spot for results. They have a virtually unlimited amount of investigative resources, excellent RICO Statutes that they introduced to fight the Mob (essentially, Conspiracy laws) and they have excellent Punitive Damage provisions (remember the US woman who spilled coffee and got 5 million$$$?). A big case win there would, I believe, open some floodgates.

I have a theory, and since I am neither a lawyer nor involved in this issue other than sympathy and a mild intellectual curiousity, take it with a large grain of salt.

I think, sooner or later, we are going to get a proverbial 'Smoking Gun' out of the Church Archives. No, not the Vatican Archives as everything that I have ever seen says that those will not be opened, ever, but the Diocesan Archives scattered across the US and the globe. If there is correspondence between a Cardinal/Arch-Bishop/Bishop and the Vatican hierarchy, or even among themselves, then that could be evidence for a large, perhaps multinational case of conspiracy to promote/protect Pedophilia and Pedophiles. And, all it really takes is one good person working in the Archives who has a conscience and will speak up. 

Don't Catholics have to confess their sins in order to be forgiven?

Time will tell on this; many have noted that the Catholic Church is an old, powerful, influential City-State with centuries-long experience in defending itself, and I agree 100% with that. On the other hand, I try to learn from history and the lesson of the Great Wall of China is instructive. The people who breeched that wall didn't hurl army after army after army against the Wall, trying to get through. No, instead, they bribed the guards to simply open the gate and got in and through unscathed. 

Again, one person with a conscience at the Diocesan Archives...

 

[EdwardV]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:10 PM, Shade_Wilder said:

Catholicism has always baffled me; a young girl got pregnant without having sex, her husband bought that tale, the child was the Son of God who worked for thirty years or so then died an excruciating death but got better, all for my benefit. Hmm... And, every Sunday congregants gather to symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of the aforementioned dead guy who got better. Double hmm...

Besides the fact that description covers most Christian sects, not just Catholicism.

Exactly how would one go about dissolving the Catholic Church? Could you even imagine trying to do that in a country like Italy, Mexico, or the Philippines? Let alone even trying it in the US where the practice of (any) religion is protected by the constitution. I'm not talking about taking them down a peg or suing the money out of them. I'm asking about actual dissolving it in total which was the original point. 

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the fact that description covers most Christian sects, not just Catholicism.

Exactly how would one go about dissolving the Catholic Church? Could you even imagine trying to do that in a country like Italy, Mexico, or the Philippines? Let alone even trying it in the US where the practice of (any) religion is protected by the constitution. I'm not talking about taking them down a peg or suing the money out of them. I'm asking about actual dissolving it in total which was the original point. 

You probably can't but you can absolutely take away their tax exempt status and they should

 

And yes, DOJ should sue for massive civil penalties (I don't know if they actually can, GOOGLE didn't tell me)

[Marc26]

I'm on holiday with a friend and he is going to church today

 

I just can't square that people know this Church rapes kids and they don't care

 

It just is incredible to me

[ChrisS]

To be honest I believe that the best scenario for the world would be the dissolution of ALL organised religions. At the end of the day they were ALL created by men in order to exercise control over others and ALL have been corrupted over the years. None of them are truly very tolerant of any of the others, they have been and still are the cause of more conflict in the world than anything else. Do not misunderstand me I have no problem with people choosing to believe in ANY God but feel that such beliefs are best kept between you and your God 

[ShaunSheep]

Speaking of which, where is Epsteins client list? How is it that Gislane's court hearing found her guilty of trafficking minors but never thought to investigate who she was trafficking them to? 

I'd be more concerned with those pedophiles in power who are having their bad deeds held over their heads so they will do what their masters tell them to.

[ChicagoExpat]

Given the tens of millions killed in the 20th century either in the name of atheism or by explicitly atheistic ideologies, and hundreds of millions more controlled, abused, etc, I'm not convinced as the rest of you seem to be that atheism is the solution for anything.

[Marc26]

11 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Given the tens of millions killed in the 20th century either in the name of atheism or by explicitly atheistic ideologies, and hundreds of millions more controlled, abused, etc, I'm not convinced as the rest of you seem to be that atheism is the solution for anything.

We just want them to stop raping kids

 

 

Don't think that is too much to ask, no??

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, Marc26 said:

We just want them to stop raping kids

Don't think that is too much to ask, no??

Not at all, and I never objected to that.  I'll go out on a limb and say I'm in favor of nobody raping kids.  Bold stance, no?
Pointing out the problem is people.  Responding to stuff like:

To be honest I believe that the best scenario for the world would be the dissolution of ALL organised religions.
 

[Marc26]

8 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Not at all, and I never objected to that.  I'll go out on a limb and say I'm in favor of nobody raping kids.  Bold stance, no?
Pointing out the problem is people.  Responding to stuff like:

To be honest I believe that the best scenario for the world would be the dissolution of ALL organised religions.
 

I do believe that would be helpful

 

But in terms of the Catholic Church, I find it unfathomable that it is still allowed to exist, I really do

They systematically raped 100's of thousands of kids, covered up right to the top and people like my amily still go to Church

 

I told them, I will never step foot in a Church again, not for weddings, funerals, anything

I will celebrate weddings at the reception and mourn deaths at the funeral hall and cementary when the priest leaves.............

[ChicagoExpat]

11 hours ago, Marc26 said:

I do believe that would be helpful

But in terms of the Catholic Church, I find it unfathomable that it is still allowed to exist, I really do

They systematically raped 100's of thousands of kids, covered up right to the top and people like my amily still go to Church

I told them, I will never step foot in a Church again, not for weddings, funerals, anything

I will celebrate weddings at the reception and mourn deaths at the funeral hall and cementary when the priest leaves.............

Well, seems they can separate the meaning behind it all from the incredibly flawed institution.  I am fully on board with holding the Catholic Church responsible for covering up/enabling pedophile priests to prey on children.

I disagree that the dissolution of religions, which would have to be forced, would be a good thing.  Atheistic societies, forced or not, are no healthier and in fact have a far worse track record than religious ones in terms of how they actually treat people.

[Vigo]

Seeking to destroy an organization which has also done significant good is foolhardy. Keep in mind that some of our most important scientific thoughts were the result of Jesuit logic. The Church which did despicable deeds also did tremendous good in educating and caring for the poor and the discards of our society. It has been the religious organization who run the soup kitchens and offer outreach to the druggies and drunks. If they are willing to comfort people in prison good for them.

[Marc26]

16 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Seeking to destroy an organization which has also done significant good is foolhardy. Keep in mind that some of our most important scientific thoughts were the result of Jesuit logic. The Church which did despicable deeds also did tremendous good in educating and caring for the poor and the discards of our society. It has been the religious organization who run the soup kitchens and offer outreach to the druggies and drunks. If they are willing to comfort people in prison good for them.

That's like saying an individual raped kids but he served at a soup kitchen so it all evens out

 

I don't disagree the Church can do good things but that can't excuse them covering up raping kids

 

And they covered it up at the highest level

 

 

And as for the Church doing good things

That often do so to coerce people into their religion, which I am not a fan of