Humanity's New Understanding of the Cosmos

[Shade_Wilder]

Today is a day that will be in the Science History books forever; the James Webb Space Telescope has come on-line and the first photos released.

"...It is the deepest image of our universe that has ever been taken," according to Nelson.

Some of these distant galaxies and star clusters have never been seen before. The galaxy cluster is shown as it appeared 4.6 billion years ago.

"This slice of the vast universe covers a patch of sky approximately the size of a grain of sand held at arm's length by someone on the ground," according to a NASA release..." (CNN)

The telescope is truly a marvel and one of Humanity's greatest engineering feats. Think about it; we built a machine our planet's surface, blasted it into space and sent it to a certain, specific location far away where it unfurled in the absolute cold of space and now allows us to peer back in time 4.6 BILLION years.

Damn!

The truly incredible thing to me was that the process of sending it to its location was done so well that rather than fuel for a ten-year mission, the best estimate now is that we will be able to use it for twenty years.

Who hasn't lain on their backs, peered up into the sky and wondered what was up there?

We are going to find out a great deal about that answer.

What a great day to be human!

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62122859

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/11/world/james-webb-space-telescope-first-image-scn/index.html

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-first-photo-biden

https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/goddard/2022/nasa-s-webb-delivers-deepest-infrared-image-of-universe-yet

[KaptainRob]

Fascinating stuff and an incredible feat of engineering given the conditions they had to overcome.

When sailing at night in relatively calm conditions, far from land, I would lay back and gaze at the sky bright with billions of stars.  You can't see even half of it from land unless in the middle of a desert as our atmosphere reflects too much city light.

[BigHewer]

55 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

Who hasn't lain on their backs, peered up into the sky and wondered what was up there?

I was working in central Australia in the late 90s. The sky there is pretty amazing as one would imagine, but once you get away from the settlements it takes on a whole new level. 

One time I went camping just west of Docker River near the WA-NT border. We were in swags on the edge of a salt pan, so basically you’re gazing straight up at the stars as you fall asleep. How many humans within 100km? 50 maybe. No more than 100. Indescribable sky. Shooting stars, the Milky Way, every square inch of it had something going on.

Now here in Osaka, people marvel at how clear the sky is if they can see one star

[Smithydog]

11 hours ago, BigHewer said:

I was working in central Australia in the late 90s. The sky there is pretty amazing as one would imagine, but once you get away from the settlements it takes on a whole new level. 

One time I went camping just west of Docker River near the WA-NT border. We were in swags on the edge of a salt pan, so basically you’re gazing straight up at the stars as you fall asleep. How many humans within 100km? 50 maybe. No more than 100. Indescribable sky. Shooting stars, the Milky Way, every square inch of it had something going on.

Now here in Osaka, people marvel at how clear the sky is if they can see one star

Yeh mate....the NT night sky is amazing.

What a great first look from James Webb and can't wait to see what else it brings forth.

[Shade_Wilder]

 

Evening gentlemen

it seems that we all share a similar perspective; I wasn't in Oz, but spent many years in the mountains of East Timor and several different parts/islands of Eastern Indonesia. That sky at night, looking south towards the center of the Milky Way, has an effect on a person that never quite leaves you.

I am as fascinated as anyone about the deep space photos and 'looking back through time', but am equally as interested in what the JWST will tell us about our own Solar System, and especially Jupiter. We have learned a great deal with the Voyager and Galileo probes, and now have an opportunity to triangulate our knowledge even further. And, something that has always fascinated me, perhaps some insight as to whether there is water, and in what specific form, on Europa; remember the single most valuable resource in space at the moment is water as if we don't find any, we'll have to carry it when we go. I won't ever see 'Deep Space', but I can dream of one day staying in a hotel on Europa and watching the "Great Red Spot' go by.

The next 10-20 years will be referred to as the 'Golden Age of Space Learning' by future historians, and I am so grateful that we'll be able to live through them.

A few more articles below that are worth a read, if you have time; the focus is more on Jupiter

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/nasas-webb-telescope-will-study-jupiter-its-rings-and-two-intriguing-moons

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-jupiter-early-observations

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-reveal-solar-system

 

[Shade_Wilder]

I wasn't going to post again on this, but fired up my computer when I got out of bed and... 

Damn!

The photo/image of the stellar nursery is breathtaking; who can resist a nursery?

However, this wasn't the one that caught my eye and got me thinking; it was in the news story and graphic in Space.com (link below) about the chemical composition of an exo-planet's atmosphere.

The JWST was able to do a spectrum graph of "Cloudless" planet which has befuddled astronomers, thus showing some of the chemical composition of its atmosphere. And, this planet is several light-years away.

Damn! Again.

I am just back from my morning cycle where I ponder questions big and small, and I wonder if we are able to learn about the chemical composition of exo-planets, could we (in time) offer further evidence in favour of the Panspermia theory (see link below)? The theory posits that life came about because of comets, meteors and the like crashed into planets at just the right time, bringing together all the requirements needed for life to begin. If we were able to get a sense of the chemical composition of several worlds and they are roughly in-line with each other, then that is quite a good indicator. And, in time, offers some good evidence that life is likely out there; I suspect that it is, but need proof.

Damn! a third time.

It has only been a day or so and already we as a species are much more knowledgeable than we were; imagine what we will have learned by the end of the decade?

Damn! a fourth time.

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-1st-photos

https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/goddard/2022/nasa-s-webb-reveals-cosmic-cliffs-glittering-landscape-of-star-birth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

[BigHewer]

17 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

It has only been a day or so and already we as a species are much more knowledgeable than we were; imagine what we will have learned by the end of the decade?

Damn! a fourth time.

https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-1st-photos

The thing that impressed me the most was the contrast in quality between the Hubble and Webb images of the same nebula towards the end of the video. 

Amazing that not so long ago, Hubble generated quite a buzz. And now it’s the T800 model.

Looking forward to more images in the weeks and months to come.

 

 

 

[Shade_Wilder]

22 hours ago, BigHewer said:

The thing that impressed me the most was the contrast in quality between the Hubble and Webb images of the same nebula towards the end of the video. 

Amazing that not so long ago, Hubble generated quite a buzz. And now it’s the T800 model.

Looking forward to more images in the weeks and months to come.

I also find comparing the Hubble and JWST images fascinating. I was reading a great explanation as to the differences and thought that I'd share.

https://www.cnet.com/science/space/features/the-reason-nasas-james-webb-space-telescope-will-activate-astronomys-next-great-era/

The second article that really caught my eye was from NASA regarding the evolution of galaxies, and specifically a region known as "Stephan's Quintet". It would be interesting no matter what, but what really struck me was the idea that these were GALAXIES interacting; not atoms, not planets, not mere stars, but entire galaxies.

https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/goddard/2022/nasa-s-webb-sheds-light-on-galaxy-evolution-black-holes

Finally, there is a dedicated website for all things JWST, and I thought I'd pass along the address.

https://webbtelescope.org/news

It really feels like we, as a species, are on the cusp of a whole new class of learning; it is my fondest hope that things like this can show people that the usual, daily, petty disputes really aren't that important in the larger scheme of things, and that perhaps we should strive to have fewer of them.

Sigh, I know. 

However, if something as grand as this won't stimulate even a minute pause, what will?

Scary question...

 

[BigHewer]

8 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

It really feels like we, as a species, are on the cusp of a whole new class of learning; it is my fondest hope that things like this can show people that the usual, daily, petty disputes really aren't that important in the larger scheme of things, and that perhaps we should strive to have fewer of them.

It’s times like this that make me wonder how this epoch will be evaluated by future historians. Will we be referred to as ancient savages, with our primitive technology and endless squabbles? 

[WilliamG]

But are there not more important things the money could have been spent on?

[Pinetree]

9 minutes ago, WilliamG said:

But are there not more important things the money could have been spent on?

It depends on how you view mankind's (sorry,  human kind's) need for knowledge and understanding.  Where do you draw the limits in this regard?  It's the thirst for knowledge that singles out humanity from other animals and  has directly produced the advanced civilization we enjoy today. Who knows what will come out of the JW , maybe new elements and compounds  will be identified, now sources of energy production, new insight into physics biology and chemistry, that can be directly explored and exploited  here on Earth, who knows until you try?   

[Pinetree]

22 minutes ago, BigHewer said:

It’s times like this that make me wonder how this epoch will be evaluated by future historians. Will we be referred to as ancient savages, with our primitive technology and endless squabbles? 

Definitely, we are indeed savage as a species .  

[Shade_Wilder]

1 hour ago, WilliamG said:

But are there not more important things the money could have been spent on?

I have heard this question many times, and I think there two different ways to look at the issue.

First, I tend to agree with Albert Einstein when he said "once you stop learning, you start dying". I think (operative word 'think') that he said it about individuals, but I would apply it to humanity as well.

Second, the money invested in research and development for space exploration has paid for itself many times over; I would argue that it is one of the most productive investments ever made by mankind. The graphic is from JPL/NASA and can be found on their website; apologies, but you have to enlarge it to read it properly.

Edit; the graphic has defeated me!

List of items derived from Space Exploration research:

• Camera phones
• Scratch-resistant lenses
• CAT scanners
• LEDs
• Land mine removal tech
• Enhanced trainers
• Foil blankets
• Enhanced water purification systems
• Dust busters
• Ear thermometers
• Enhanced home insulation
• The jaws of life
• Wireless headsets
• Memory foam
• Freeze dried food
• Adjustable smoke detectors
• Enhanced baby formula
• Artificial limbs
• Computer mouse
• Better portable computers
• And so much more...

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Shade_Wilder
Where the hell is my Latte?

[Shade_Wilder]

1 hour ago, BigHewer said:

It’s times like this that make me wonder how this epoch will be evaluated by future historians. Will we be referred to as ancient savages, with our primitive technology and endless squabbles? 

"Great minds think alike and fools seldom differ"

I can't find a definitive Author for the quote, but I think it applies to us, BH, and I hope that we are the former and not the latter; I also wonder what future historians will say about us on a regular basis.

To get WAAAAAY too philosophical on this Buddha day, I suspect that we are well-represented in the book/movie 'The Day The Earth Stood Still' when Professor Barndhart says

"You say that we're on the brink of destruction and you're right But it's only on the brink that people find the will to change. Only at the precipice do we evolve. This is our moment."

The rapid advancement of our technology in the last... hundred years or so has been staggering; we have gone from a specifies that developed rudimentary flight to travelling to our moon and back and creating machines which can peer back through the mists of time. Further, we have developed/advanced enough to actually create machines to help us do our thinking (computers). Finally, we have spread our knowledge out to the entire human species via Smartphones and the Web; never before has humanity had so many potential brains thinking of stuff.

Put it all together and it is clear that we are facing a crossroads; will the dissemination of knowledge and technology lead our species into a true 'Golden Age of Enlightenment' or to the depths of despair and ruin?

Damn if I know.

Tune in next week, Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel.

[dmacarelli]

Amazing stuff. The universe is so vast, it allows some perspective on how puny we are. They estimate it contains well over 500 million galaxy groups, 10 billion large galaxies, 100 billion dwarf galaxies, and 2,000 billion billion suns. (And the visible universe, some 15 billion light-years across, may be a speck in a far larger totality that we cannot yet see). 

But these are only estimates, as there is likely so much out there that is far beyond our reach. And we think we are so special. 

Considering the vastness of the universe, I consider it sheer hubris, that so many insist we are the only intelligent species in the entire universe. It would not surprise me if there were millions of highly evolved populations on distant planets. 

Just look around. Are we really that amazing? I should say no. Not impressive. We have not even figured out nuclear fusion yet, and world peace is a distant dream. We are just now figuring out less invasive surgery. Advanced? Barely. And only by very modest standards. 

We have no idea how advanced telecommunication or teleportation works, and we have barely figured out the relationship between the health of our soil, and the way we treat it. 

We foul our environment to no end, we use a primitive oil product to power our vehicles, and we treat our great oceans like dumping grounds. We are arrogant yes. Truly advanced? No. 

And if an alien group could contact us, why would they want to get in touch with us? For an advanced alien civilization, it would be like taking a dip into the universal sewer. Not only are we not alone, it is likely we are one of the least evolved civilizations even within our own galaxy, much less the vastness of the universe!

How can anyone comprehend the vastness of this universe, and say it is likely we are the only form of intelligent life within it? 

No. We are alone is infinitely more terrifying. If earthlings are the best this universe has, that would be terrifying. We are an exceedingly unimpressive civilization.

There are likely millions of advanced civilizations out there. And we are likely one of the least evolved. Ida Amin. Hitler. Stalin. Khan. Castro. Trump. Bieber. Kardashian. Come on. Really?

It would be a most astonishing waste of space, to think that! It is a near impossibility, to a truly open mind.

We are but a speck of galactic dust. There are thousands of galaxies within our local supercluster, spanning 100 million light years, in this part of the universe. Our supercluster is but one part of a larger cluster, called Laniakea. Consisting of 100,000 large galaxies, spanning 400 million light years. 

Each galaxy has how many solar systems? How many planets and stars? And you somehow use your intellect to presume it is nothing but empty space. And we are the chosen ones? That is sheer hubris, and a statistical near impossibility.

[Shade_Wilder]

I am still massively blown away by the JWST and the first images, and am still reading about it.

Two articles might be of interest to members.

Space.com published an article about 6 months ago on the engineering aspects of the telescope, but it is worth another read. I have said it before and will say it again; we (humans) built an incredibly complex and delicate machine on our planet's surface, tested the hell out of it, blasted it into space to a specific location a million klicks away, watched it unfold/unpack, get itself ready and for the next 20 years it will amaze us.

Damn!

"https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-engineering-challenges"

The second article which caught my eye was regarding PVs (Photovoltaics), the power source for the telescope.

"NASA launched the Webb Space Telescope on Christmas Day 2021. The telescope uses less power than one might think. In fact, only one kilowatt, equivalent to the power used in microwaving your lunch, is needed to power the device. NASA said Webb will stay energy efficient more than 1 million miles from Earth, reliably powered by photovoltaics.

A 20-foot fold-out solar array is attached to the main observatory of the craft. It will act as the ‘powerhouse’ for the telescope, supplying energy to all its scientific instruments, communications, and propulsion systems. The system is sized at 2 kW to account for the degradation that will occur over time due to the harsh conditions of space..."

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/07/13/solar-panels-power-the-james-webb-telescope/

It is going to require a great deal of patience waiting for the next batch of photos...

What  a great time to be alive!

[oldschooler]

On 7/14/2022 at 4:15 PM, Shade_Wilder said:

I have heard this question many times, and I think there two different ways to look at the issue.

First, I tend to agree with Albert Einstein when he said "once you stop learning, you start dying". I think (operative word 'think') that he said it about individuals, but I would apply it to humanity as well.

Second, the money invested in research and development for space exploration has paid for itself many times over; I would argue that it is one of the most productive investments ever made by mankind. The graphic is from JPL/NASA and can be found on their website; apologies, but you have to enlarge it to read it properly.

Edit; the graphic has defeated me!

List of items derived from Space Exploration research:

• Camera phones
• Scratch-resistant lenses
• CAT scanners
• LEDs
• Land mine removal tech
• Enhanced trainers
• Foil blankets
• Enhanced water purification systems
• Dust busters
• Ear thermometers
• Enhanced home insulation
• The jaws of life
• Wireless headsets
• Memory foam
• Freeze dried food
• Adjustable smoke detectors
• Enhanced baby formula
• Artificial limbs
• Computer mouse
• Better portable computers
• And so much more...

Exactly. Humans must evolve as an interstellar spacefaring race within 100 years just to survive as a species. Webb another key step on that critical path. 

Spend instead on what ? Many short term money pits abound. Welfare -Medical- Corrupt Nations-Africa- Weapons-  More medical care to keep immobile 85 year olds living to 100 ? Or keep hundreds of millions alive in corrupt shitholes for another year at best ? No. Keep spending on Space, the Future. 

[oldschooler]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:30 PM, dmacarelli said:

Amazing stuff. The universe is so vast, it allows some perspective on how puny we are. They estimate it contains well over 500 million galaxy groups, 10 billion large galaxies, 100 billion dwarf galaxies, and 2,000 billion billion suns. (And the visible universe, some 15 billion light-years across, may be a speck in a far larger totality that we cannot yet see). 

But these are only estimates, as there is likely so much out there that is far beyond our reach. And we think we are so special. 

Considering the vastness of the universe, I consider it sheer hubris, that so many insist we are the only intelligent species in the entire universe. It would not surprise me if there were millions of highly evolved populations on distant planets. 

Just look around. Are we really that amazing? I should say no. Not impressive. We have not even figured out nuclear fusion yet, and world peace is a distant dream. We are just now figuring out less invasive surgery. Advanced? Barely. And only by very modest standards. 

We have no idea how advanced telecommunication or teleportation works, and we have barely figured out the relationship between the health of our soil, and the way we treat it. 

We foul our environment to no end, we use a primitive oil product to power our vehicles, and we treat our great oceans like dumping grounds. We are arrogant yes. Truly advanced? No. 

And if an alien group could contact us, why would they want to get in touch with us? For an advanced alien civilization, it would be like taking a dip into the universal sewer. Not only are we not alone, it is likely we are one of the least evolved civilizations even within our own galaxy, much less the vastness of the universe!

How can anyone comprehend the vastness of this universe, and say it is likely we are the only form of intelligent life within it? 

No. We are alone is infinitely more terrifying. If earthlings are the best this universe has, that would be terrifying. We are an exceedingly unimpressive civilization.

There are likely millions of advanced civilizations out there. And we are likely one of the least evolved. Ida Amin. Hitler. Stalin. Khan. Castro. Trump. Bieber. Kardashian. Come on. Really?

It would be a most astonishing waste of space, to think that! It is a near impossibility, to a truly open mind.

We are but a speck of galactic dust. There are thousands of galaxies within our local supercluster, spanning 100 million light years, in this part of the universe. Our supercluster is but one part of a larger cluster, called Laniakea. Consisting of 100,000 large galaxies, spanning 400 million light years. 

Each galaxy has how many solar systems? How many planets and stars? And you somehow use your intellect to presume it is nothing but empty space. And we are the chosen ones? That is sheer hubris, and a statistical near impossibility.

The numbers work both ways. 120 light years of human radio waves ….yet nothing comes back. For me this is clear proof the cold dark universe is empty of life …. earth & humans a once in ten billion year fluke. Can’t imagine another life form producing the pure sublime genius of Mozart, Da Vinci, Newton, Einstein … or the Webb Telescope. 
 

Humans will take the next 50,000 years to evolve, reach and colonize just our own galaxy. Pointless to think much on others. Even the finest sci-fi writers like Asimov & Herbert who wrote about far future human galactic civilizations had no time for non- existent aliens or other unreachable unknowable galaxies. 

[dmacarelli]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:43 PM, oldschooler said:

The numbers work both ways. 120 light years of human radio waves ….yet nothing comes back. For me this is clear proof the cold dark universe is empty of life …. earth & humans a once in ten billion year fluke. Can’t imagine another life form producing the pure sublime genius of Mozart, Da Vinci, Newton, Einstein … or the Webb Telescope. 
 

Humans will take the next 50,000 years to evolve, reach and colonize just our own galaxy. Pointless to think much on others. Even the finest sci-fi writers like Asimov & Herbert who wrote about far future human galactic civilizations had no time for non- existent aliens or other unreachable unknowable galaxies. 

Why would an advanced civilization want to contact us, or be known to us? If they knew enough about us, there would be ample reason to keep us in the dark! 

It is a near impossibility that there are not countless advanced civilizations out there. 

[oldschooler]

27 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Why would an advanced civilization want to contact us, or be known to us? If they knew enough about us, there would be ample reason to keep us in the dark! 

It is a near impossibility that there are not countless advanced civilizations out there. 

Remotely Possible.Any out there have to be contactable if not reachable with far future tech to count. Talking about other Galaxies, other than observing & cataloging them with Webb, seems fairly pointless, due to time & distance.

Again, the “no response back” within that 120 million light year radio wave radius is sufficient proof for me. 

Human Life was far beyond a near impossibility, in fact would not exist without that fluke asteroid strike 66 million years ago. 
 

[dmacarelli]

10 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Remotely Possible.Any out there have to be contactable if not reachable with far future tech to count. Talking about other Galaxies, other than observing & cataloging them with Webb, seems fairly pointless, due to time & distance.

Again, the “no response back” within that 120 million light year radio wave radius is sufficient proof for me. 

Human Life was far beyond a near impossibility, in fact would not exist without that fluke asteroid strike 66 million years ago. 
 

Totally disagree. I think there is not only advanced life out there, I think it is as common as ants on earth. Millions of civilizations. And I think that pure hubris is the cause of doubt. If I thought  WE were the only advanced life in the cosmos, I would be despondent. We are NOT impressive as a species. 

[oldschooler]

34 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Totally disagree. I think there is not only advanced life out there, I think it is as common as ants on earth. Millions of civilizations. And I think that pure hubris is the cause of doubt. If I thought  WE were the only advanced life in the cosmos, I would be despondent. We are NOT impressive as a species. 

One  “ estimate” under some arbitrary but commonly accepted scheme ( Drake Equation) had the number of existing civilizations in our galaxy as 36. there just  can’t be “millions” when you consider the thousands of “filters” that have to be passed  in each case.
 

Again I’m utterly uninterested what life might exist beyond our galaxy as we’ll never see it ; especially as I’m equally fairly well convinced that no advanced life but ours exists anywhere.

[samiam123]

1 hour ago, dmacarelli said:

Totally disagree. I think there is not only advanced life out there, I think it is as common as ants on earth. Millions of civilizations. And I think that pure hubris is the cause of doubt. If I thought  WE were the only advanced life in the cosmos, I would be despondent. We are NOT impressive as a species. 

I have zero doubt there are literally thousands if not millions of planets with life, just in our own galaxy.  Intelligent life is probably much more rare but still probably plentiful in the universe.  I think the odds of anything being close enough to make contact is probably very slim though. 

Even if we both had giant radio telescopes pointed directly at each other and beamed a signal at extremely high power, it would be almost impossible to distinguish it from noise after about 100 light years. Our own galaxy is 100,000 light years wide so it's highly unlikely we would make contact with anything in our own galaxy much less the universe.

Edited July 22, 2022 by samiam123

[dmacarelli]

22 hours ago, oldschooler said:

One  “ estimate” under some arbitrary but commonly accepted scheme ( Drake Equation) had the number of existing civilizations in our galaxy as 36. there just  can’t be “millions” when you consider the thousands of “filters” that have to be passed  in each case.
 

Again I’m utterly uninterested what life might exist beyond our galaxy as we’ll never see it ; especially as I’m equally fairly well convinced that no advanced life but ours exists anywhere.

I cannot even begin to imagine the level of despondency and desperation that must be accompanied by the thought that we are all alone. 

Are we really the best the universe has to offer? Very unimpressive. 

[oldschooler]

12 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

I cannot even begin to imagine the level of despondency and desperation that must be accompanied by the thought that we are all alone. 

Are we really the best the universe has to offer? Very unimpressive. 

If alone then our fate is under our exclusive control. Would be more despondent to be under awareness of say a 100,000 year old galactic civilization that would judge us a threat & obliterate us … like we did to smallpox….although they could just EMP us back to Early Industrial Age or DeNuclearize Humanity ….we are I think going to genocide / extinction ourselves anyway sometime this century.