News Forum - Teenage gunman goes on rampage killing 19 children and 2 adults at a Texas primary school

[JMichaels]

Reluctant to engage on this topic as an American, but the debate over "to have" or "to not have" guns is shadowing the real issues a "few" of the other members have posted.

A gun is an inanimate object that requires a person to act. Same as an automobile is to a drunk driver (as mentioned in a prior post). The focus should not only be on guns; let's consider what is driving the person to use the gun. Disappearing middle class, poverty, decaying values, self-centered society, declining mental health, family breakdown, etc.. etc., etc.

Here's some revealing insights from the CDC (10-May-2022). They don't seem to be putting much focus on gun regulations...

https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/firearm-deaths/index.html

These societal issues are not unique to America; I concur that the magnitude of gun ownership is. Unless we recognize and admit that the breakdown of society is the driving root cause, matters will only get worse.

Maybe the USA will be the first to collapse, but others will surely follow. They'll just be using knives, clubs and hammers.... 

[oldschooler]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:54 AM, Smithydog said:

I have heard a few members and others talk about this. But being trained in the use of a firearm does not naturally mean you have the ability to react to a sudden situation. Trained police didn't, yet you expect civilians with no prior exposure to open fire.

You expect a teacher, teaching school students to suddenly draw and open fire with a handgun accurately and safely in a classroom full of kids as a reaction after a gunman opens fire with an assault rifle. Or do you expect the teacher to calmly invite the shooter, probably already whacked out of his or her mind, to a quick draw contest in the playground?

What happens if the armed guard or the teachers are the first taken out. Do you expect a 10 year old or younger to calmly then pick up the gun and kill the shooter? 

The research seems to show quite a different reality. For example, the following article concludes with:

"the data suggest no association between having an armed officer and deterrence of violence in these cases. An armed officer on the scene was the number one factor associated with increased casualties after the perpetrators’ use of assault rifles or submachine guns."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776515

In fact is showed "the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present".

It is as bad an idea as Ted Cruz's lock the back door. Yeh, that is really going to stop someone with an assault rifle...

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Not surprised that armed “mall cop” guards generate more deaths and armed trained volunteer teachers not ideal either but would be “something” or “ least worse” measure. 

No “ deterrence” possible or intended. Loons will be undeterred. Just giving some immediate defensive capability where none presently exists. 

Kids not expected to fight back either but must be trained to hide or run for their lives.

[Poolie]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:15 AM, Cabra said:

The USA has nothing to be proud of when it comes to the proliferation and ease of access to guns. Clinging to guns out of fear only begets more fear and death. On this trajectory, the USA will truly be #1 uncontested. There was once a man who described many of the other countries on this list as Sh*t Hole countries. Time for the USA to turn that high-powered criticism onto themselves. 

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

Brazil (49,436)

United States (37,038)

Venezuela (28,515)

Mexico (22,116)

India (14,710)

Colombia (13,169)

Philippines (9,267)

Guatemala (5,980)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

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I agree but try to get them to admit it. Impossible.

[Smithydog]

  On 5/28/2022 at 4:39 AM, oldschooler said:

Not surprised that armed “mall cop” guards generate more deaths and armed trained volunteer teachers not ideal either but would be “something” or “ least worse” measure. 

No “ deterrence” possible or intended. Loons will be undeterred. Just giving some immediate defensive capability where none presently exists. 

Kids not expected to fight back either but must be trained to hide or run for their lives.

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The problem is that very few can consciously kill someone else on the spot and it doesn't seem to be having a deterrent factor. Perhaps it has deterred others, but as school massacres seem to be on the rise, either more mentally challenged people are being driven to it by whatever circumstances happens, or the deterrent is not working.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/1101050970/2022-school-shootings-so-far

Its that challenge of the result of someone determined at all costs to kill and does not hesitate, against someone perhaps trained in the ability to do so, but hesitates to consider before pulling a trigger based on the need to make a moral judgement or decision. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Smithydog
Added supporting URL Link

[TheDirtyDurian]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:54 AM, Smithydog said:

I have heard a few members and others talk about this. But being trained in the use of a firearm does not naturally mean you have the ability to react to a sudden situation. Trained police didn't, yet you expect civilians with no prior exposure to open fire.

You expect a teacher, teaching school students to suddenly draw and open fire with a handgun accurately and safely in a classroom full of kids as a reaction after a gunman opens fire with an assault rifle. Or do you expect the teacher to calmly invite the shooter, probably already whacked out of his or her mind, to a quick draw contest in the playground?

What happens if the armed guard or the teachers are the first taken out. Do you expect a 10 year old or younger to calmly then pick up the gun and kill the shooter? 

The research seems to show quite a different reality. For example, the following article concludes with:

"the data suggest no association between having an armed officer and deterrence of violence in these cases. An armed officer on the scene was the number one factor associated with increased casualties after the perpetrators’ use of assault rifles or submachine guns."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2776515

In fact is showed "the rate of deaths was 2.83 times greater in schools with an armed guard present".

It is as bad an idea as Ted Cruz's lock the back door. Yeh, that is really going to stop someone with an assault rifle...

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I was being ironic. Guess that didn't come across. 

Just for the record. I am not pro teachers having guns in their desk. 

[oldschooler]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:15 AM, Cabra said:

The USA has nothing to be proud of when it comes to the proliferation and ease of access to guns. Clinging to guns out of fear only begets more fear and death. On this trajectory, the USA will truly be #1 uncontested. There was once a man who described many of the other countries on this list as Sh*t Hole countries. Time for the USA to turn that high-powered criticism onto themselves. 

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

Brazil (49,436)

United States (37,038)

Venezuela (28,515)

Mexico (22,116)

India (14,710)

Colombia (13,169)

Philippines (9,267)

Guatemala (5,980)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

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You have wrongly included Gun Suicide figures. Issue is Gun Homicides. 19,350 in 2020 in USA, 5,000 up on year before. 62% black on black. Whites 21%, Hispanic 14% ? Nearly all criminals on criminals so no real loss. Asians ? Near Zero. Go Figure….

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-gun-deaths-surged-35-2020-higher-black-people-cdc-2022-05-10/

Trump was also spot on here. How else would you summarize those countries ?“ Developing” Nations ? A Bad Joke & Lie. All getting worse. 
 

[Cabra]

  On 5/28/2022 at 9:23 AM, oldschooler said:

You have wrongly included Gun Suicide figures. Issue is Gun Homicides. 19,350 in 2020 in USA, 5,000 up on year before. 62% black on black. Whites 21%, Hispanic 14% ? Nearly all criminals on criminals so no real loss. Asians ? Near Zero. Go Figure….

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-gun-deaths-surged-35-2020-higher-black-people-cdc-2022-05-10/

Trump was also spot on here. How else would you summarize those countries ?“ Developing” Nations ? A Bad Joke & Lie. All getting worse. 
 

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I specifically said "all causes". The proliferation of guns is directly correlated to gun deaths. That's the point. The USA is right up there with the rest of the sh*t-hole countries. Nothing to be proud of. The only country with more guns (compared to Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, India, and Colombia) and fewer gun deaths is China. The USA is in a league of their own -- more guns and more gun deaths (and world class in mass shooting; almost exclusively perpetrated by whites).

[BigHewer]

In Japan, there were 9 gun deaths in 2018. Population 127 million.
Total gun homicides: 0. 
I wonder why

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/japan

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/japan-almost-completely-eliminated-gun-003604787.html

[riclag]

  On 5/28/2022 at 4:20 AM, JMichaels said:

Reluctant to engage on this topic as an American, but the debate over "to have" or "to not have" guns is shadowing the real issues a "few" of the other members have posted.

A gun is an inanimate object that requires a person to act. Same as an automobile is to a drunk driver (as mentioned in a prior post). The focus should not only be on guns; let's consider what is driving the person to use the gun. Disappearing middle class, poverty, decaying values, self-centered society, declining mental health, family breakdown, etc.. etc., etc.

Here's some revealing insights from the CDC (10-May-2022). They don't seem to be putting much focus on gun regulations...

https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/firearm-deaths/index.html

These societal issues are not unique to America; I concur that the magnitude of gun ownership is. Unless we recognize and admit that the breakdown of society is the driving root cause, matters will only get worse.

Maybe the USA will be the first to collapse, but others will surely follow. They'll just be using knives, clubs and hammers.... 

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spot on !  In the USAThere are millions of people who own guns that dont act out with them! Didnt stop using jets or planes when the crazies started in on them . Didnt stop using other transportation when they were used as weapons either.

 Must harden school security and use red flag technology.Banks are treated the same way

Anyone with anger issues must be vetted and if need be restricted!

I like your comment!  It deals with the root cause mental illness!

[TheDirtyDurian]

  On 5/28/2022 at 10:33 AM, BigHewer said:

In Japan, there were 9 gun deaths in 2018. Population 127 million.
Total gun homicides: 0. 
I wonder why

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/japan

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/japan-almost-completely-eliminated-gun-003604787.html

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Because they prefer Samurai....

[oldschooler]

  On 5/28/2022 at 9:37 AM, Cabra said:

I specifically said "all causes". The proliferation of guns is directly correlated to gun deaths. That's the point. The USA is right up there with the rest of the sh*t-hole countries. Nothing to be proud of. The only country with more guns (compared to Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, India, and Colombia) and fewer gun deaths is China. The USA is in a league of their own -- more guns and more gun deaths (and world class in mass shooting; almost exclusively perpetrated by whites).

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Mass shooting US deaths 0.1% of US gun homicides ( approx. 200/year) so regardless of perp. skin color they are clearly statistically irrelevant.

the greater problem in terms of 2/3 (12,000/year) US gun homicides numbers IS linked mainly to black criminal sub- culture, with white criminal gun homicides 4,000.

There IS also some unknown causal link between no. of guns AND  number of deaths in US though….including perhaps opportunity ? 

[AndynPhuong]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:06 AM, farang said:

fully auto rifles are "not" allowed to be bought in usa. the gun used was a simi auto.it will chamber a new round with each trigger pull  but its not full auto.only fed lic amrs dealers can get full auto with lots of permits and checks.not the guy off the street.

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Again, yes, private citizens 'are' allowed to purchase "fully automatic weapons". Depending on which state you reside. I'm thinking it's 42 out of the 50 states that allow ownership. I gave the steps (for NC) to obtain a full auto weapon, legally. Seems 9 out of 50 states restrict magazine capacity.

As has been alluded to earlier, seems the break-down of society - chalk it up to whatever reasons you wish - would be the reason these crimes happen.

People, including the president, want to jump and blame "the gun lobby", to include the NRA. The NRA has been promoting responsible gun ownership since it's inception. The NRA has had gun safety classes pretty much since it's inception. 

In the wake of such a tragedy, the desire to "do something" so this never happens again is strong. Some would look at the issue, and try to make a intelligent decision, do something that would actually help stem the violence, without infringing on peoples rights. When one political party response is "we don't have the time or manpower to enforce all these laws, we need to pass more laws, common sense laws" - you can understand why many are skeptical.

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/26/2022 at 4:29 PM, Thaidup said:

2nd amd is as written, A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.^[

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So how is it well regulated if a teenager can go on a shooting spree?

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/26/2022 at 5:09 PM, 23RD said:

Or better still why don't the American left stick to the Constitution? 

Or if they think it's that bad their free to find another Country that's more aligned to their values somewhere like North Korea , China maybe Cuba or Venezuela the weather is nice there.

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How about in the land of the free they have the freedom to go to school without getting shot to shit?

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/27/2022 at 10:57 AM, TheDirtyDurian said:

Time to stop this madness. 

All teachers should be issued with, and trained in the use of firearms. 

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Excellent idea. The problem with there being to many guns is solved by adding more guns.

Tell me. Has that worked in the past?

[Rookiescot]

Can anyone tell me why, as a normal citizen, you would need an AR 15?

[Ivo_Shandor]

  On 5/28/2022 at 1:18 PM, Rookiescot said:

Can anyone tell me why, as a normal citizen, you would need an AR 15?

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Ameriguns with penis envy or impotency... An AR15 compensates for these shortcomings 

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:06 AM, farang said:

fully auto rifles are "not" allowed to be bought in usa. the gun used was a simi auto.it will chamber a new round with each trigger pull  but its not full auto.only fed lic amrs dealers can get full auto with lots of permits and checks.not the guy off the street. bump stocks are also banned.and 30 round clips are also banned in most states.

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Yeah you really cant buy those conversion kits over the internet can you?

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/28/2022 at 12:47 PM, AndynPhuong said:

People, including the president, want to jump and blame "the gun lobby", to include the NRA. The NRA has been promoting responsible gun ownership since it's inception. The NRA has had gun safety classes pretty much since it's inception.

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And yet the NRA hate the concept of background checks and indeed any kind of responsible ownership legislation. 

Its just a merry go round of "you need to buy a gun because we sold guns to everyone else".

[AndynPhuong]

  On 5/28/2022 at 1:41 PM, Rookiescot said:

And yet the NRA hate the concept of background checks and indeed any kind of responsible ownership legislation. 

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Nationwide, I'm thinking there are something like 12000 firearms laws on the books. I seem to remember that number from when I was licensed, and that was over 30 years ago. The NRA would be against new legislation especially if there were laws already on the books, and not being enforced. When VP Biden made the following statement, he may have made it because he knew his son lied when buying a handgun, and could possibly be prosecuted. During the Obama years, firearms prosecutions were down some 35% compared to before he took office.  Background checks are here, since 1998. There have been multiple instances of the govt failing, and background checks information 'falling through the cracks', resulting in deaths. So the attitude of many is - how's about enforcing existing laws first?

Jim Baker, the NRA representative present at the meeting, recalled the vice president’s words during an interview with The Daily Caller: “And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.”

Submitting false information on an ATF Form 4473 — required for the necessary background check to obtain a firearm — is a felony punishable by up to ten years in prison, depending on prior convictions and a judge’s discretion, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. 

Just a few laws already on the books, at federal level. 

• Federal law prohibits transferring a firearm to anyone known or believed to be prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC992(d))
• Federal law prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a handgun outside his state of residence and prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a non-licensee outside his state of residence. (18 USC 992(a)(3))
• Federal law prohibits anyone from transferring a handgun to a non-licensee who resides in another state (with rare exceptions), and prohibits a non-licensee from transferring any firearm to a non-licensee who resides in another state. (18 USC 922(a)(5))
• Federal law prohibits the acquisition of a firearm on behalf of a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC 922(h) and 922(a)(6))
• Federal law prohibits anyone from providing a handgun to a juvenile (person under age 18), and prohibits juveniles from possessing handguns, with limited exceptions. (18 USC 922(x))
• Federal law also prohibits dealers from selling rifles or shotguns to persons under age 18. (18 USC 922(b)(1))

    On 5/28/2022 at 1:36 PM, Rookiescot said:

  Yeah you really cant buy those conversion kits over the internet can you?

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  You do realize that  possession of the parts to convert a weapon, and the weapon together, is illegal, a felony? Also punishable by up to 10 years in prison & a fine of $100K, if I remember correctly.  Besides, there are 'very' few weapons that could be converted to full automatic easily. Most would require machine shop equipment and knowledge.

[AndynPhuong]

  On 5/28/2022 at 1:18 PM, Rookiescot said:

Can anyone tell me why, as a normal citizen, you would need an AR 15?

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If you're not breaking any laws, if you're not a criminal - why not? 

I've shot service rifle at Camp Perry, and it's nice to see the juniors shooting. Young males and females. I've watched a young girl, shoot standing, target 200 yards away, and hit 10 out of 10 bullseyes. Something in me thinks these youngsters, learning discipline, firearms safety, how to shoot, attending with their parents, well, you won't be reading about them committing some atrocity with a ar15 (which, btw, is the weapon most choose to use in the competitions). Their parents are actively engaged in their child's life giving guidance. Unlike the teen in Texas, who by all accounts really had some issues. 

The following was written a few years ago, not by me. But, applies.   

A hundred and twelve years ago, in 1907...our great grandparents were first able to buy the rifle pictured. The semi-auto Winchester Model 1907.

This is a gun they could buy from a Sears catalogue and have delivered via US Post. It was/ is a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with detachable, high capacity magazine.

About 400,000 semi-automatic rifles were produced before WW2. Civilians had hundreds of thousands of these for 40 years, while US soldiers were still being issued old fashioned bolt action rifles.

The 1907 fired just as fast as an AR15 or AK47 and the bullet (.351 Winchester) was actually larger than those fired by the more modern looking weapons..

The ONLY functional difference between the 1907 and a controversial and much feared AR15 is the modern black plastic stock.

The semi auto, so-called "assault rifle" is 110 years old. It isnt new in any way.

The semi auto rifle was not a weapon of war. The government MADE IT a weapon of war 40 years after civilians had them.

The semi-auto can be safely owned by civilians. The proof is that literally 3 generations of adults owned and used them responsibly and no one ever even noticed.

Want to fix the horror of mass shootings? Fix the things that have changed for the worse in the last 50 years. Family Values, Prayer from Schools, Ten Commandments from court houses, Spanking Kids, Morals, What is socially acceptable, Confusion on Genders, Left Wing Liberalism, Socialism, ect.

Cause the rifle technology in question was here long before this insanity. GOD SAVE THE USA.

[oldschooler]

  On 5/28/2022 at 1:18 PM, Rookiescot said:

Can anyone tell me why, as a normal citizen, you would need an AR 15?

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Simple. Much easier to hit the target. Point and Shoot. No Skill. No Range Time. Housewives / Household Defense Choice. AR15 / Rifles not the problem; only around 0.2% of US gun homicides. 

[PBS]

  On 5/27/2022 at 1:56 PM, oldschooler said:

There Is. Handguns are complex & difficult to shoot well so require extensive range time & handling skill development. They can hold 20 rounds so can be no less deadly than a rifle in skilled hands. 

AR15 is a guaranteed point & shoot Centre Mass hit at close / mid range. Housewives / Household Choice therefore for Home Defence. Gun Performance Enhancement another issue. 

Less than 1% US gun homicides / crime is by semi-auto (one trigger pull / one shot) rifles. Assault Rifles are fully auto ( one trigger pull / one whole magazine can be discharged) for Military/Federal use only ; illegal for civilians to acquire/ use in US. 

Impossible to talk only about “mass shootings” without context of the wider criminal gun culture & gun homicides in US.

I have shown that mass shootings ( two or more deaths) are rationally & statistically irrelevant in that context as are AR15 sales. Understandably Very Emotive of course especially at schools.

Possession Laws in fact appear quite adequate but somehow the loons are still accessing guns. This shooter gave no real “loon” indications apart from FB gun postings just before his rampage.

Now as to the tragic School Shootings where lunatics target the very young. 
one a week now in US this year. Uvaela the most deadly since Sandy Hook ten years ago.

Believe schools must be better protected with volunteer armed teachers and minimum guarded entry / exit.  

Cowardly “police” who failed to go straight in and who did nothing in fact except shit themselves with fear and stupidly detain parents, were an absolute disgrace, and no doubt contributed to many preventable young deaths here. Massive issue with the caliber & training of local US police.

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One assumes local police stopped parents entering the school to avoid further casualties. Personally I believe it not warranted to accuse them of cowardice without knowing the facts on why they didin't immediately confront the shooter - e.g. could have been ordered not to enter whilst waiting for active shooter trained specialist personnel. From your comments above I see no reason why semi auto rifles, high capacity magazines etc should not be banned, AR15 or similar do appear to be the weapon of choice for these mass murderers. Occassional sacrifices need to be made by users, rather than idulging their whims, for the greater public good. In anycase, IMO, the Second Amendment must be updated e.g. only fully trained active shooter, with refresher training once a year, national guardsmen (well regulated militia) to have access to high powered semi auto rifles.

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:46 PM, AndynPhuong said:

Nationwide, I'm thinking there are something like 12000 firearms laws on the books. I seem to remember that number from when I was licensed, and that was over 30 years ago. The NRA would be against new legislation especially if there were laws already on the books, and not being enforced. When VP Biden made the following statement, he may have made it because he knew his son lied when buying a handgun, and could possibly be prosecuted. During the Obama years, firearms prosecutions were down some 35% compared to before he took office.  Background checks are here, since 1998. There have been multiple instances of the govt failing, and background checks information 'falling through the cracks', resulting in deaths. So the attitude of many is - how's about enforcing existing laws first?

Jim Baker, the NRA representative present at the meeting, recalled the vice president’s words during an interview with The Daily Caller: “And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.”

Submitting false information on an ATF Form 4473 — required for the necessary background check to obtain a firearm — is a felony punishable by up to ten years in prison, depending on prior convictions and a judge’s discretion, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. 

Just a few laws already on the books, at federal level. 

• Federal law prohibits transferring a firearm to anyone known or believed to be prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC992(d))
• Federal law prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a handgun outside his state of residence and prohibits a non-licensee from acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a non-licensee outside his state of residence. (18 USC 992(a)(3))
• Federal law prohibits anyone from transferring a handgun to a non-licensee who resides in another state (with rare exceptions), and prohibits a non-licensee from transferring any firearm to a non-licensee who resides in another state. (18 USC 922(a)(5))
• Federal law prohibits the acquisition of a firearm on behalf of a person who is prohibited from possessing firearms. (18 USC 922(h) and 922(a)(6))
• Federal law prohibits anyone from providing a handgun to a juvenile (person under age 18), and prohibits juveniles from possessing handguns, with limited exceptions. (18 USC 922(x))
• Federal law also prohibits dealers from selling rifles or shotguns to persons under age 18. (18 USC 922(b)(1))

  You do realize that  possession of the parts to convert a weapon, and the weapon together, is illegal, a felony? Also punishable by up to 10 years in prison & a fine of $100K, if I remember correctly.  Besides, there are 'very' few weapons that could be converted to full automatic easily. Most would require machine shop equipment and knowledge.

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What about at state level?

Universal Background Check - Texas Gun Sense (txgunsense.org)

Only gun dealers with a Federal Firearms License are required to do a background check before selling a gun in Texas, not private sellers.  Texas has NO state requirement for more comprehensive background checks when purchasing a firearm. Therefore, persons prohibited from owning firearms can easily obtain a gun - on the internet, at a gun show, even from a private seller out of the trunk of a car.

[Rookiescot]

  On 5/28/2022 at 9:31 PM, oldschooler said:

Simple. Much easier to hit the target. Point and Shoot. No Skill. No Range Time. Housewives / Household Defense Choice. AR15 / Rifles not the problem; only around 0.2% of US gun homicides. 

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So a shotgun would be more effective.