News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

four European gas buyers including Germany’s #3 gas importer.

Spend those Euros wisely as the money is slowly drying up:

Thursday as the German government reportedly dropped its opposition to an embargo on Russian oil, paving the way for a complete EU boycott of liquid fuels out of Russia. The German news, reported by The Wall Street Journal, comes a day after the German and Polish governments struck on an agreement on supplying refineries in eastern Germany at least partly with oil imported at Poland's terminal at Gdansk on the Baltic. The oil can then be fed via a branch pipeline into the Druzhba pipeline that serves as the principal artery for Russian oil to central Europe.

Crude Oil Shoots Higher as Germany Drops Opposition to Russian Embargo (msn.com)

Like you said, it's all about the work arounds. 

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I see your bet, and raise you $33B

$33 billion means you needed to get a second mortgage on the US presidency to come up with the funds. I’ll cover your $33 billion AND any future sanctions with a loan from the Chinese triad. The interest rates are ruinous but I am not all in yet. In the interests of fair play I remind you I can see your chip stack.

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

So who won in the stand off? 

Depends on how you look at it and why Russia did it. Russia has been getting hammered by NATO sanctions and seemingly had nothing to return economic fire with. This demand and bending of NATO’ will is good optics for Putin inside Russia. The reality of the longer term damage to Russia has nothing to do with. 

[EdwardV]

26 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Depends on how you look at it and why Russia did it. Russia has been getting hammered by NATO sanctions and seemingly had nothing to return economic fire with. This demand and bending of NATO’ will is good optics for Putin inside Russia. The reality of the longer term damage to Russia has nothing to do with. 

Actually the sanctions are from the EU and various like minded nations, not NATO. Pedantic point aside. I can see your point. However if the EU countries are still paying in Euro's, did Russia really bend them to it's will?  

Interestingly there seems to be some confusion at the EU if paying this way is allowed or not:

“What we cannot accept is that companies are obliged to open a second account and that between the first and second account, the amount in euros is in the full hands of the Russian authorities and the Russian Central Bank, and that the payment is only complete when it is converted into roubles,” a senior EU official said. “This is absolutely clear circumvention of the sanctions.” Opening a roubles account at Gazprombank in itself may breach the EU sanctions, the official added, without providing a conclusive assessment of that. To clear up the confusion, European energy ministers are holding an emergency meeting next week and will ask the commission, the EU’s executive, to give clearer legal advice on how to deal with Russia’s gas demands.

Europe struggles for clarity on Russian roubles-for-gas demand | European Union News | Al Jazeera

Sounds like this is not a settled method of payment. 

 

 

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, EdwardV said:

However if the EU countries are still paying in Euro's, did Russia really bend them to it's will?  

I admit “bend EU countries to Russia’s will”was as exaggerated as claiming revised payment terms are blackmail ;-) This was a either a symbolic action from Poocan or an attempt to skirt sanctions. Either way some EU members had their cages rattled and rare voices of dissent were heard. A rare win for Russia in the economic war. 

btw;: from the same senior EU official. 

“Speaking at a briefing on Thursday a senior EU official said that if EU buyers declare their payments for gas are completed once the payment has been made in euros and before it is converted into roubles, sanctions would have been respected.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-says-buyers-must-confirm-initial-euro-payments-russian-gas-purchases-2022-04-28/

[EdwardV]

Seems the UK is intent on making sure Ukraine can fight off any naval invasion by Russia. Besides the harpoon missiles they have already sent. They are now sending hundreds of vehicle launched Brimstone missiles too: 

British Armed Forces Minister James Heappey said that the U.K. would send hundreds of anti-ship supersonic Brimstone missiles to Ukraine to bolster its navy in the "next few weeks." … The Brimstone has a range of 37 miles and can be launched from ground or air. It can be used with laser-seeking guidance or autonomous targeting and is equipped with a 15-pound warhead. The U.K. is believed to be offering the surface-based systems. During his visit to Kyiv earlier this month, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said Brimstones could be mounted on the back of vehicles to hit targets in the Black Sea.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-black-sea-navy-missiles-moskva-1701663?amp=1

Designed to rip open tanks. I’m sure they would work wonderfully doing the same to thin skinned landing craft and assault ships. With plenty of range to sink them long before they could reach land. Interesting application to say the least. 

 

[oldschooler]

On 4/27/2022 at 5:04 PM, Fanta said:

So execute all Russian POWs, bayonet the wounded and rape then kill any Russian civilians that the Ukrainians can lay their hands on. And then toss a few chemical weapons into some Russian primary schools to teach those little snot bubblers a lesson! Sounds like a plan?  Because all is fair in love and war, right? Hmmm….. 

none of that is happening.civilians & kids are not “ invaders”. Couldn’t care less what happens to any Russian military in Ukraine. They don’t follow any civilized rules so have forfeited that right. Perhaps Russian POWs  should be given hot tea & blankets after another tiring session of shelling, murder, rape & torture ? 

[Fanta]

25 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

none of that is happening.civilians & kids are not “ invaders”. Couldn’t care less what happens to any Russian military in Ukraine. They don’t follow any civilized rules so have forfeited that right. Perhaps Russian POWs  should be given hot tea & blankets after another tiring session of shelling, murder, rape & torture ? 

Your justification for mistreating POWs is the alleged atrocities committed against civilians. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You kill my family and I will kill yours. Reap what you sow. Don’t go all humane on me now. Kill the Russian women and children or not?

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Your justification for mistreating POWs i

https://www.businessinsider.com/evidence-russia-executing-ukrainians-trying-to-surrender-us-official-2022-4?amp
 

Wars are such horrible things. 

[Fanta]

24 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/evidence-russia-executing-ukrainians-trying-to-surrender-us-official-2022-4?amp
 

Wars are such horrible things. 

You took one sentence out of the context from  a few posts and you know it. Naughty! I’ll take your bait… 
The US can add this “credible” evidence to their other “credible” evidence that includes the claim that chemical weapons were used at Mariupol. Did you see the video of the Russian POWs being allegedly kneecapped? I posted it here but it was removed. How about the videos allegedly showing bound Russian POWs executed and dumped on the road, the solo killings with knives in the eyes (volume not advised) or the torture videos? Telegram is just a joy if you are into that sort of thing. Both sides are committing war crimes but that doesn’t excuse it. Tit for tat is for children and Internet posters. The baying for blood crowd that try to justify these crimes against POWs squeal like stuck pigs over 200 fresh, individual graves next to a cemetery inside a city that has just been captured after a 2 month long battle. “It is a war crime!” they howl with tears running down their cheeks blinding them from the undeniable fact that civilian casualties occur and the Russian did’n’t leave them to rot in the streets. I won’t excuse or condone either side for war crimes. Do you believe all these allegations or just the ones you want to believe?

 

[Smithydog]

23 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You took one sentence out of the context from  a few posts and you know it. Naughty! I’ll take your bait… 
The US can add this “credible” evidence to their other “credible” evidence that includes the claim that chemical weapons were used at Mariupol. Did you see the video of the Russian POWs being allegedly kneecapped? I posted it here but it was removed. How about the videos allegedly showing bound Russian POWs executed and dumped on the road, the solo killings with knives in the eyes (volume not advised) or the torture videos? Telegram is just a joy if you are into that sort of thing. Both sides are committing war crimes but that doesn’t excuse it. Tit for tat is for children and Internet posters. The baying for blood crowd that try to justify these crimes against POWs squeal like stuck pigs over 200 fresh, individual graves next to a cemetery inside a city that has just been captured after a 2 month long battle. “It is a war crime!” they howl with tears running down their cheeks blinding them from the undeniable fact that civilian casualties occur and the Russian did’n’t leave them to rot in the streets. I won’t excuse or condone either side for war crimes. Do you believe all these allegations or just the ones you want to believe?

Whoever has committed war crimes will be discovered. What people are underestimating is the extent to which digital assets are both proving and debunking claims, allowing significant verified databases to accumulate evidence for future prosecutions.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/04/06/how-digital-evidence-of-war-crimes-in-ukraine-is-being-collected-verified-and-stored

They take claims, like in the the following article, and pull them apart piece by piece, using geo-location techniques as just one tool.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html

Even measuring the length of shadows to determine the time of day and to confirm the actual day. On the ground, investigators cross check witness statements like any police investigation and these can be used to verify images captured but not released to the public.

So speculate all you want. But the investigators and their tools will find the answers amongst any propaganda being pushed around, which there is plenty.

People forget how many cameras are in society these days. Mobile phones, security cameras, drones and above on satellites that can be used to determine the truth.

Sadly, they will find crimes have been committed as I am sure they have already determined. 

[Fanta]

Allegations are allegations until proven. Propaganda uses anything remotely credible in times of war. War crimes are being committed as sure as soldiers are trying to kill each other. 2 wrongs never make 1 right. That is my opinion.

[Smithydog]

7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Allegations are allegations until proven. Propaganda uses anything remotely credible in times of war. War crimes are being committed as sure as soldiers are trying to kill each other. 2 wrongs never make 1 right. That is my opinion.

Agree. It is a sad truth of war. I have a mate who does forensic scientific research and investigations. He can spend days just on one photo. But most we won't get to see. Just probably those that generate the most shock value.

[Marble-eye]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Allegations are allegations until proven. Propaganda uses anything remotely credible in times of war. War crimes are being committed as sure as soldiers are trying to kill each other. 2 wrongs never make 1 right. That is my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong, the Russians are trying to kill the Ukranians, whilst the Ukranians are trying to push the Russians out of their country.

If there wasn't any Russians in the Ukraine I guarantee that there would be no killings, no rapes, no destruction and no pillfering. Therefore the Russians are the catalyst in this one sided war and no one else, stop trying to apportioning the blame on both sides, the Ukrainians didn't ask for this.

[Freeduhdumb]

All the Nazi's need to do is surrender... they won't be killed. 

"One of the Ukrainian defenders from the Azov regiment, Capt. Svyatoslav Palamar, says Mariupol was and will stay Ukrainian."

Excerpt from the link below:
During a recent Manhattan rally for Ukraine, New Yorkers were recorded chanting “Azov! Azov! Azov!” – an outpouring of support for the Ukrainian neo-Nazi Azov Battalion which is currently battling the invading Russian army. Whether the crowd was aware of the Azov fighters’ extremist, fascistic beliefs is unclear, but it is certainly striking that no one seems to bat an eye when a crowd of people in the middle of America’s largest city loudly proclaims support for neo-Nazis.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/o02b4CA_Kkc/

[Fanta]

13 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Your opinion is wrong,

Next.. an opinion cannot be wrong. Only facts can be wrong. An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive. In my opinion the majority of noise generated in these threads comes from emotion, not fact. Offering logic against an argument of emotion is just fuel to an emotive fire. All bright and shiny until someone gets hurt. No-one has ever denied that Russia invaded Ukraine or the avoidable losses this has entailed. Some disagree on the motives and messages of the players. btw: if the Ukrainians aren’t trying to kill the Russians then we should exchange the weapons shipments for tie dyed t-shirts and throw in some flowers to stick down the Russians rifle barrels: 

[Marble-eye]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Next.. an opinion cannot be wrong. Only facts can be wrong. An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive. In my opinion the majority of noise generated in these threads comes from emotion, not fact. Offering logic against an argument of emotion is just fuel to an emotive fire. All bright and shiny until someone gets hurt. No-one has ever denied that Russia invaded Ukraine or the avoidable losses this has entailed. Some disagree on the motives and messages of the players. btw: if the Ukrainians aren’t trying to kill the Russians then we should exchange the weapons shipments for tie dyed t-shirts and throw in some flowers to stick down the Russians rifle barrels: 

"In my opinion the majority of noise generated in these threads comes from emotion, not fact. Offering logic against an argument of emotion is just fuel to an emotive fire."

 

"The baying for blood crowd that try to justify these crimes against POWs squeal like stuck pigs over 200 fresh, individual graves next to a cemetery inside a city that has just been captured after a 2 month long battle. “It is a war crime!” they howl with tears running down their cheeks blinding them from the undeniable fact that civilian casualties occur and the Russian did’n’t leave them to rot in the streets"

Apologies if we are keeping you away from your Am Dram evening.

It alls boils down to if the Russians leave the Ukraine everything in the garden will be rosy again, if they don't they will get killed. 

 

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Apologies if we are keeping you away from your Am Dram evening.

And I apologize for interrupting your search for the meaning of life in EastEnders.

10 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

alls boils down to if the Russians leave the Ukraine everything in the garden will be rosy again, 

And water is wet. Or is it? 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

The US can add this “credible” evidence to their other “credible” evidence that includes the claim that chemical weapons were used at Mariupol. Did you see the video of the Russian POWs being allegedly kneecapped? I posted it here but it was removed

If I remember correctly, the US never claimed chemical weapons were used, just that there’ was a report and they were investigating. The US didn’t find any evidence of such. I do get it was over blown at the time and some took it and ran with it.
 

As for what I posted, I didn’t comment other than to say war horrible. I don’t know if it’s true although unlike the chemical claim, the US does say they have evidence. Haven’t seen it so I refrained from saying much about it. It did seem appropriate to post as it’s a new story. I’ll let others decided for themselves how much validity to give it. 

[Rookiescot]

55 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Next.. an opinion cannot be wrong. Only facts can be wrong. An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive. In my opinion the majority of noise generated in these threads comes from emotion, not fact. Offering logic against an argument of emotion is just fuel to an emotive fire. All bright and shiny until someone gets hurt. No-one has ever denied that Russia invaded Ukraine or the avoidable losses this has entailed. Some disagree on the motives and messages of the players. btw: if the Ukrainians aren’t trying to kill the Russians then we should exchange the weapons shipments for tie dyed t-shirts and throw in some flowers to stick down the Russians rifle barrels: 

An opinion can be wrong if its based on the wrong facts. Something you demonstrate daily on here.

[Chatogaster]

52 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Next.. an opinion cannot be wrong. Only facts can be wrong. An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive.

 

It is my opinion that opinions can be wrong.

(Sorry for ignoring the context of this thread, but I couldn't resist the obvious paradox that results from your claim.)

Seriously now: when an opinion is based on a misconception or even ignorance of facts which contradict that opinion, it is wrong. Most, Many, Some people will give the benefit of the doubt when the relevant facts aren't well-established, but that's a courtesy and doesn't mean that every opinion is right.
 

 

[Marble-eye]

26 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And I apologize for interrupting your search for the meaning of life in EastEnders.

And water is wet. Or is it? 

I haven't watched the BBC in 15 years, liberal lefties are best left to their own devices, you watch it much?

As for the water question I am sure you'll have to wait for your team of investigators to deliver that answer also, too tricky working it out for yourself.

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

Your justification for mistreating POWs is the alleged atrocities committed against civilians. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You kill my family and I will kill yours. Reap what you sow. Don’t go all humane on me now. Kill the Russian women and children or not?

Already clearly stated that civilians & kids on both sides are not “ invaders” so not to be harmed. 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

All the Nazi's need to do is surrender... they won't be killed. 

"One of the Ukrainian defenders from the Azov regiment, Capt. Svyatoslav Palamar, says Mariupol was and will stay Ukrainian."

Excerpt from the link below:
During a recent Manhattan rally for Ukraine, New Yorkers were recorded chanting “Azov! Azov! Azov!” – an outpouring of support for the Ukrainian neo-Nazi Azov Battalion which is currently battling the invading Russian army. Whether the crowd was aware of the Azov fighters’ extremist, fascistic beliefs is unclear, but it is certainly striking that no one seems to bat an eye when a crowd of people in the middle of America’s largest city loudly proclaims support for neo-Nazis.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/o02b4CA_Kkc/

There are many more “nazi’s” in Russia than Ukraine. A silly sideshow deflection non- issue. 

[Freeduhdumb]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

There are many more “nazi’s” in Russia than Ukraine. A silly sideshow deflection non- issue. 

Yeah... right, Nazi's in Ukraine, "A silly sideshow deflection non-issue" So you condone Nazi's you've made yourself clear.