News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[EdwardV]

1 minute ago, butterfly said:

you can't have it both ways, one minute you guys call him a crazy dictator, then the next minute, he is someone rational, so which is it?

I've never called him one, don't lump me in with others. Making bad decisions, just about every one of them has backfired on him, doesn't make him crazy. 

I'm not saying Putin won't drop a nuke, but he isn't going to obliterate London. There is no reason to think he is suicidal. If he does, it will be a small tactical one in Ukraine. Not on NATO as he can't win that war. Not sure he will, but it could happen. It will be to warn NATO off and to convince Ukraine to capitulate. If he does, two things instantly happen in return. First is every NATO country with a nuclear reactor will start building a bomb. Second is NATO will forward deploy into Ukraine. Probably just east of Kyiv down to east of Odesa.

Putin has delusions of grandeur for sure, but he isn't the first leader to have that. His problem is he waited too long to act. Had he fully invaded Ukraine back in 2014, it probably would have worked. 

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

it will be a small tactical one in Ukraine. Not on NATO as he can't win that war. Not sure he will, but it could happen.

The west has already supplied artillery capable of firing tactical nukes. If Czar Putin starts using them expect the west to start providing them to the Ukraine.

[Tim_Melb]

10 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Tim are you Russian, do you think it is ok for Russia to illegally invade a sovereign country, you seem unable to grasp the enormity of what the Russian thugs are doing, would that be a fair comment Tim?

No I am very much aware of the tragedy and horror of what has happened to the Ukrainian people in this situation but I am not willing to indulge the propaganda and flights of fantasy that gullible twits are swallowing like drunken teenagers. Nor am I willing to waste time debating BS with the likes of yourself, vlad and Rookiescott with your pathetic regurgitating of propaganda and desperate cries of look at me we have nuclear weapons too we are relevant too it's not just the Americans. You really are quite pathetic. You put crap on Poolie for pushing the CCP agenda but at least he has the excuse of coming from China where he would be arrested and disappeared if he expressed a contrary view. What's your excuse for behaving in such a ridiculous antisocial way? Constantly pushing rabid pro West propaganda like it's gods truth when it's as much fiction as the rubbish pushed by Putin and his propaganda machine.  No doubt you will be opposing any increase in the number of refugees your country admits from the millions of displaced Ukrainians. Just like the Americans pathetic contribution of only accepting 100,000 of the 6 plus million that have been created by a war that they contributed to almost as much as the Russians themselves. You clearly have no understanding of the personal loss that these people have been forced to endure both of family members and their homes. You really are pathetic. 

[EdwardV]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The west has already supplied artillery capable of firing tactical nukes. If Czar Putin starts using them expect the west to start providing them to the Ukraine.

I would be shocked if that was the case. Giving them to Ukraine would be opening Pandora's box and nothing good can come from that.

Better to obliterate Russian infrastructure leading into Ukraine. Russia knows the West can do this and easily. Take out every bridge, rail center, supply depot, etc. The Russian army grinds to a halt inside of a week, and they start the long walk home. Militarily Russia is no longer under the delusion they can even fight with NATO let alone win a war against them. 

Russia really needs to win this second phase, or bad things start to happen. At the same time, the West need Russia to lose or at the very least get so bogged down they never leave eastern Ukraine. Nothing good from either of those.    

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

No I am very much aware of the tragedy and horror of what has happened to the Ukrainian people in this situation but I am not willing to indulge the propaganda and flights of fantasy that gullible twits are swallowing like drunken teenagers. Nor am I willing to waste time debating BS with the likes of yourself, vlad and Rookiescott with your pathetic regurgitating of propaganda and desperate cries of look at me we have nuclear weapons too we are relevant too it's not just the Americans. You really are quite pathetic. You put crap on Poolie for pushing the CCP agenda but at least he has the excuse of coming from China where he would be arrested and disappeared if he expressed a contrary view. What's your excuse for behaving in such a ridiculous antisocial way? Constantly pushing rabid pro West propaganda like it's gods truth when it's as much fiction as the rubbish pushed by Putin and his propaganda machine.  No doubt you will be opposing any increase in the number of refugees your country admits from the millions of displaced Ukrainians. Just like the Americans pathetic contribution of only accepting 100,000 of the 6 plus million that have been created by a war that they contributed to almost as much as the Russians themselves. You clearly have no understanding of the personal loss that these people have been forced to endure both of family members and their homes. You really are pathetic. 

Yes because of Czar Putins illegal and genocidal invasion.

Or is all that western propaganda that never happened?

[Soidog]

10 hours ago, Guevara said:

Have you considered that the response you posted was to someone who has a psychotic axe to grind?

Fair point. Clearly something missing 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Faz
frivolous meme removed

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I would be shocked if that was the case. Giving them to Ukraine would be opening Pandora's box and nothing good can come from that.

Better to obliterate Russian infrastructure leading into Ukraine. Russia knows the West can do this and easily. Take out every bridge, rail center, supply depot, etc. The Russian army grinds to a halt inside of a week, and they start the long walk home. Militarily Russia is no longer under the delusion they can even fight with NATO let alone win a war against them. 

Russia really needs to win this second phase, or bad things start to happen. At the same time, the West need Russia to lose or at the very least get so bogged down they never leave eastern Ukraine. Nothing good from either of those.    

I would not argue with the points you have made. I only pointed out that the west is already ahead of the curve should Czar Putin start using tactical nukes or indeed chemical weapons.

Its a game of chess on many levels.

[Dmitrii]

1 hour ago, Tim_Melb said:

No I am very much aware of the tragedy and horror of what has happened to the Ukrainian people in this situation but I am not willing to indulge the propaganda and flights of fantasy that gullible twits are swallowing like drunken teenagers. Nor am I willing to waste time debating BS with the likes of yourself, vlad and Rookiescott with your pathetic regurgitating of propaganda and desperate cries of look at me we have nuclear weapons too we are relevant too it's not just the Americans. You really are quite pathetic. You put crap on Poolie for pushing the CCP agenda but at least he has the excuse of coming from China where he would be arrested and disappeared if he expressed a contrary view. What's your excuse for behaving in such a ridiculous antisocial way? Constantly pushing rabid pro West propaganda like it's gods truth when it's as much fiction as the rubbish pushed by Putin and his propaganda machine.  No doubt you will be opposing any increase in the number of refugees your country admits from the millions of displaced Ukrainians. Just like the Americans pathetic contribution of only accepting 100,000 of the 6 plus million that have been created by a war that they contributed to almost as much as the Russians themselves. You clearly have no understanding of the personal loss that these people have been forced to endure both of family members and their homes. You really are pathetic. 

So many angry words and accusations but no clear answer to the question that was asked.

Do you condemn the aggression of Russia against Ukraine?

Please answer simply, no need to write another novel in reply.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Did you even look at the map?  

It is never OK to leave pockets of the enemy inside captured territory. The Russians cannot simply drive around the uncaptured bits of Mariupol. The steelworks will fall. It is a waste of resources to attack it any further. No-one is coming to the rescue, the trapped soldiers cannot attack or escape. It is a siege with apparently one inevitable result. 

But the Russians can simply drive around the uncaptured bits of Mariupol. That's what I said.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

I shouldn't even dignify this stupid comment with a response. There is no doubt the approach to the outskirts of Kyiv was a disorganised mess but to suggest that the Russian withdrawal was some sort of loss is laughable. They made a complete mess of things probably because they were largely a bunch of young conscripts that thought they were on an exercise which is why got bogged down and their commander got sacked and replaced they then withdrew to be reorganised and used more effectively. To suggest that there was a major battle for the city is laughable. If Kyiv is a goal then they will be back and the end result will be the sort of destruction seen in Mariupol which ever side wins. War in cities destroys the city. It's what happens when you start using weapons in the confined space of a city all the buildings get hit and damaged. The only way of avoiding it is to do what the French did in the Second world war and surrender in advance. 

 I shouldn't even dignify this stupid comment with a response. So I won't.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, vlad said:

How many miles was the Russian convoy of Tank and Artillery long that was seen on Satellite imagery Tim on the outskirts of kyev?

Four, er...no...stand by...correction... forty...four zero....lol.

[Dmitrii]

2 hours ago, butterfly said:

you can't have it both ways, one minute you guys call him a crazy dictator, then the next minute, he is someone rational, so which is it?

He is rational but he is a 100% sociopath, has no respect for lives of other people, completely devoid of sympathy and compassion, has committed a long list of violent crimes.

In normal countries people like that are held in a single prison cells.

Unfortunately, Russia is ruled by this disgusting creature and not for the first time in its history...

[KomanderChicknNugget]

13 hours ago, Vigo said:

I have watched the video.  I do not know if you have seen actual video, because I do not see same thing you do.  Putin is not clutching the table with both hands. On the contrary the left hand is on his thigh and the right hand is loosely holding the table, because the arm is  on seat armrest and comes out under the table. If this was the frozen grip of Parkinsons, the right thumb would not be as loose as it is. The man is not sitting in a comfortable chair.   Yes the left foot is  slightly fidgety, but the movement is similar to that of a the typical type A personality. They get impatient when they have to sit for long periods. Nor is there any "spasm" evident. 

These claims of Parkinsons have been floating around as far back as November 2020.  If he is  afflicted, there is no evidence provided that he is.  What is known is that Putin has had a number of back injuries typical of all accomplished athletes. He has been thrown from horses and his extensive history in judo have left him with the soreness and stiffness that is common to such people.

If the Parkinsons condition was so advanced as to cause him mobility issues, his speech would be slurred, and it is not, The video shows him speaking quite clearly.

You must have seen a shortened version of the video.  The entire video is over 12 minutes.  Here is the sped up full video: 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by KomanderChicknNugget

[Guphz]

9 hours ago, Mee said:

First of all the Russian army has offered many times the besieged Ukrainian forces, and the civilians used by them as human shields btw, to surrender, lay down the weapons and come out on the promise they will be well treated according to international laws on prisoners of war and given medical care to the wounded.

It's too bad that Russia's word is worth about as much as a wet fart in a storm. Russia, remember, is known for pretending to open evacuation corridors and then shelling them.

By the way, how can Ukrainian forces be using civilians as human shields when these civilians are deep inside a secure bunker where they can't be reached by anyone unless Russians try to actually enter with ground troops?

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Contrary to western propaganda, the Russian army has respect for life and not interested in killing people indiscriminately.

That must be why they have pulverized Mariupol and are now trying to hide the thousands of victims of genocide they have created.

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It seems instead that the Ukrainian president and military commanders don't care much for the life of their soldiers who they are willing to sacrifice just to keep the glory of the Ukrainian resistance propaganda rolling in the news. They kept refusing to give the OK for their troops to surrender, even though they are hopelessly cut out from any supply and in dire need of medical attention.

The troops themselves decided not to surrender. And I understand them, because as we know, Russia doesn't give a crap about human lives and would simply slaughter them. After making propaganda videos.

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The city of Mariupol has been in fact liberated by the openly self declared neo-nazi units of the Azov battalion who had their stronghold in the city

Your definition of "liberated" seems odd. The city has been bombed to rubble, tens of thousands of innocent people killed. Yeah, some liberation.

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(whose existence, barbaric operations and war crimes curiously are never questioned by the western mainstream media, wonder why)

Strange, I keep seeing pro-Russian sock puppet accounts on Twitter and other places post screenshots of articles before the war, with criticism of the Asov Battallion. Wonder why pro-Russians can't seem to keep their stories straight

The problem for the Russian narrative, by the way, is that Azov has been shrinking in size for years now. There were fewer than 1000 of them left before Russia invaded. At their peak there were tens of thousands of them or something like that.

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and aside those 2000 people or so still hidden inside the steel plant there is no other Ukrainian troops "in control of the city".

Well, Ukrainians are in control of Azovstal which makes up something like 1/3 of the city.

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Western media keep pushing trough their propaganda of lies and fake news trying to depict the Ukrainians as if they are almost winning this war while they are completely powerless

If Russia is winning, how come they had to give up on their main objective Kyiv? And how come Russia lost their navy's crown jewel of a ship to a state with no navy?

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and only have their ridicule, not at all credible actor-turned-president on the screen 24/7 on international tour to pontificate on brave resistance and keep demanding money, weapons and scolding whoever is not aligned to the propaganda and doesn't denounce "evil" Putin..

Well Putin is evil, so that's not much of a topic to discuss. I'm not quite sure how Zelensky being an actor is relevant, though. He has shown great leadership during this invasion, and while Putin the coward has been hiding in a bunker, Zelensky has been next to his troops in Kyiv, ready for whatever may come.

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Other big lie: the Russians didn't lose the "battle of Kiev" as there wasn't any battle in the first place. They just decided to cease attacking the area and leave as a gesture of good will after the peace talks seemed to have reached a promising outcome and regroup in the Donbass region to continue their main goal of liberating it.

 

Sounds like a huge amount of Copium to me. We all remember the deranged rant Putin did when he announced the invasion. Ukraine was going down. It wasn't going to be an independent state anymore. It didn't deserve to exist.

Then they sent riot police towards Kyiv, because they thought they would capture it with ease. Oh how wrong they were...

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But those peace talks eventually went nowhere thanks especially to the warmongering confrontational influence and pressure from the US, UK and NATO who are clearly using Ukraine as a border territory for proxy war to fight for their personal war against their swore eternal enemy Russia and Putin.

Ah yes, poor Putin. No will of his own. Dictated and controlled by Evil US, UK and NATO.

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The EU, instead of using their logic and reason to try to see the reality of things is hopelessly self-chaining to their long time Atlantic masters even though most people in European countries oppose their political leaders in this foolish, masochist exercise. I really feel sorry for them as they will face really hard times ahead. The only intelligent thing to do here would be to kick out once for all the US influence and their obsolete NATO reins and achieve real freedom of the European countries. 

 

NATO is anything but obsolete. Putin proved that NATO needs to exist, and Putin even managed to convince Sweden and Finland to join. Good job!

[Guphz]

46 minutes ago, KomanderChicknNugget said:

You must have seen a shortened version of the video.  The entire video is over 12 minutes.  Here is the sped up full video: 

Wow, he looks like he's in excruciating pain! No wonder he makes stupid, irrational decisions that only backfire on him. He probably needs heavy drugs to ease the pain and try to think clearly, but then the drugs themselves cloud his mind.

So it seems that not only is the Russian military completely useless, but Russia's leader is a crippled, sad old man too. Desperately clinging on to power, and making a last ditch effort to secure his legacy, only to become the laughing stock of the world.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Guphz

[Guphz]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Did you even look at the map?  

It is never OK to leave pockets of the enemy inside captured territory. The Russians cannot simply drive around the uncaptured bits of Mariupol. The steelworks will fall. It is a waste of resources to attack it any further. No-one is coming to the rescue, the trapped soldiers cannot attack or escape. It is a siege with apparently one inevitable result. 

Russia failed to take Azovstal, so they had to come up with some excuse. A way out.

It seems that Ukrainian forces are in fact still doing attack runs on Russians in Mariupol as well.

Oops.

[Guphz]

4 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

To suggest that there was a major battle for the city is laughable.

I agree. There was no major battle. But it wasn't because it wasn't a main objective for the Russians. It was because the Russian military is completely inept and were unable to actually get it done. They tried, failed to even mount a decent attack, and then had to withdraw in shame. Meanwhile trying to pretend like it was no biggie.

The cope is strong!

[Guphz]

2 hours ago, Fester said:

But the Russians can simply drive around the uncaptured bits of Mariupol. That's what I said.

Yes, and they are still getting attacked.

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, Guphz said:

By the way, how can Ukrainian forces be using civilians as human shields when these civilians are deep inside a secure bunker where they can't be reached by anyone unless Russians try to actually enter with ground troops

Maybe we can ask the 1,000+ civilians trapped underground at Mariupol with the remnants of the neo Nazi Azov regiment after they are released?  The media portrays these civilians as the family and loved ones of the courageous Ukrainian warriors who chose to stay close to their men to provide emotional support and love and also because they are in fear of the murderous Russian beasts. Seriously? Who in their right mind says “Sure mum, you can come with me and the boys and watch us fight to the death. It’ll be fun.” Jesus wept…. the naivety of some people.
It is a fact that the Ukrainian Armed Forces positioned artillery, tanks and troops inside urban areas putting civilians in the direct line of fire. That is understandable. It is war. At the same time claiming innocent civilians are always being bombarded for absolutely no reason at all is clearly a mistruth aka bullshit.The garbage from the Western media that anyone not in uniform is a non combatant standing by idly while the guys in uniforms fight it out is pure propaganda. At the start of the war Zelenskky forbade any Ukrainian male between the ages of 18-50 from leaving the country while the Mayor of Kyiv boasted that in the first few days they had distributed 25,000 rifles and 4 million bullets to civilians in Kyiv alone. Is it safe to assume that your typical Ukrainian male civilian won’t lift a finger to defend his own country from invaders?  You cannot have it both ways. “They are bombing the buildings!” - of course because that’s where the gunfire is coming from! 

 

[Fanta]

4 hours ago, Guphz said:

the Russian military is completely inept

This propaganda again. If the Russian military is as truly inept are you have been lead to believe why haven’t the 440,000 strong Ukrainian Forces destroyed the less than 200,000 “inept” Russian invaders? 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Faz
frivolous meme removed

[Guphz]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Maybe we can ask the 1,000+ civilians trapped underground at Mariupol with the remnants of the neo Nazi Azov regiment after they are released?

Most of the Azov regiment today aren't Nazis, but that is irrelevant anyway. The Nazi thing is just a propaganda tool by actual Nazi Putin.

And those civilians are trapped underground because Russo-Nazi forces kept bombing their city to rubble, and murdering everyone including civilians.

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The media portrays these civilians as the family and loved ones of the courageous Ukrainian warriors who chose to stay close to their men to provide emotional support and love and also because they are in fear of the murderous Russian beasts.

Where?

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It is a fact that the Ukrainian Armed Forces positioned artillery, tanks and troops inside urban areas putting civilians in the direct line of fire.

When you are defending a city, it's kind of hard to not be in an urban area. That's no excuse to indiscriminately bomb the entire city to rubble.

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That is understandable. It is war. At the same time claiming innocent civilians are always being bombarded for absolutely no reason at all is clearly a mistruth aka bullshit.

 

No, not at all. There is no reason to level an entire city just because there are soldiers there. But as you know, this is Russia's Modus Operandi. They have done it many times before. They will simply destroy entire cities, civilians be damned. It's to terrorize the victim state into submission.

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The garbage from the Western media that anyone not in uniform is a non combatant standing by idly while the guys in uniforms fight it out is pure propaganda.

 

So now you are defending mass-murdering people and indiscriminate bombing of entire cities because... because what?

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At the start of the war Zelenskky forbade any Ukrainian male between the ages of 18-50 from leaving the country while the Mayor of Kyiv boasted that in the first few days they had distributed 25,000 rifles and 4 million bullets to civilians in Kyiv alone.

So defending mass-murder and leveling entire cities again. Defending war crimes.

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Is it safe to assume that your typical Ukrainian male civilian won’t lift a finger to defend his own country from invaders?  You cannot have it both ways. “They are bombing the buildings!” - of course because that’s where the gunfire is coming from! 

Yes I can. There are rules and laws even in war. Just because a city has soldiers in it, even in buildings, doesn't give you the right to indiscriminately level the entire city.

It's like a bully trying to beat up the victim, the victim trying to fight back, and the bully stabbing the victim to death because he defended himself.

And I'm not sure what the point of your video by Russian government-controlled propaganda outlet RT is supposed to show. First they bomb the entire city to rubble, and then they make videos of their war crimes?

[Guphz]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

This propaganda again. If the Russian military is as truly inept are you have been lead to believe why haven’t the 440,000 strong Ukrainian Forces destroyed the less than 200,000 “inept” Russian invaders? 
 

In case you didn't notice, Russia has taken heavy casualties, and had to retreat from almost the entire country. And it's so funny - Russia lost its navy's flagship to a country with no navy

Yes, they are inept. From planning, to actually carrying out missions. Disaster upon disaster.

Remember the paratroopers who sailed into the Kyiv area to take over that airport, only to be completely destroyed by Ukrainian forces?

Or sending riot police into battle, thinking that was a great idea?!

The Russian military has become the laughing stock of the world.

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, Guphz said:

Russia failed to take Azovstal, so they had to come up with some excuse. A way out.

It seems that Ukrainian forces are in fact still doing attack runs on Russians in Mariupol as well.

Oops.

The delusion is strong in this one. Your argument is the same as a leper saying the doctors are wrong because he still has 1 finger attached and he didn’t need the other 9 anyway. He’s obviously fine, the fingers will grow back and think of the & money saved on manicures. Win win! 

[Zorba_the_Geek]

Communists in all but name and "Liberty"? Sounds legit.

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, Guphz said:

Most of the Azov regiment today aren't Nazis, but that is irrelevant anyway. The Nazi thing is just a propaganda tool by actual Nazi Putin.

You are correct. Most of the Azov battalion are no longer neo Nazis, they are corpses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion