News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, vlad said:

The links above Haw Haw are you blind or just ignoring the Video. Why don't you ever condemn Russia for targeting residential areas? You must see this is happening. Why do you need to highlight some wording like Deliberately fired on? are you trying to outline this.

I watched the video. Did you read the statement quoting the Russian dude stating war by proxy?
Allegations are unproven accusations and I doubt them for the same reason that mob justice doesn’t appeal to me. I let your video of war crime graves slide because you are understandably passionate about it. I believe in evidence, courts and the power of propaganda.
Rhetorical questions: Why don’t you ever condemn Ukraine for not moving civilians out of a war zone?  for fighting pitched battles in cities? for moving artillery into urban areas? Here’s one we can both understand but cannot excuse.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10636597/Ukrainian-doctor-tells-TV-interviewer-ordered-staff-CASTRATE-Russian-soldiers.html

[vlad]

You have seen Apartment blocks burnt out and destroyed Apartment buildings and Hospitals on fire yet you still deny or agree with the way the Russian military is going about their business. You can ignore the Rapes of kids, women, and mass graves it does not bother you, all you pump out is Proxy this or Proxy that it is plain and simple Russia is targetting women and children right or wrong Haw Haw? don't deflect or go off-topic are they deliberately targeting civilian buildings and killing non Combatants.

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, vlad said:

You have seen Apartment blocks burnt out and destroyed Apartment buildings and Hospitals on fire yet you still deny or agree with the way the Russian military is going about their business. You can ignore the Rapes of kids, women, and mass graves it does not bother you, all you pump out is Proxy this or Proxy that it is plain and simple Russia is targetting women and children right or wrong Haw Haw? don't deflect or go off-topic are they deliberately targeting civilian buildings and killing non Combatants.

Are you having difficulty understanding what he's saying?

Yes the Russians are very likely to be doing bad things as per what happens in every war but he, like most rational people, will wait until all the investigations are complete and the evidence presented before drawing his own conclusions rather than just believing what the media are pushing at you. It's called having a brain of your own. 

I personally don't think, or rather hope, the Russians are deliberately targeting women and children because there would be a lot more casualties than there is. 

This is not a genocide as much as you would like it to be. That could well change in future but the Russians would feel the full force of NATO if so. And yes at the moment this is a proxy war by NATO. Do you think the Ukraine would have lasted this long on there own without their weapons?

Wether NATO should be doing what they are is another matter. I agree with them helping the Ukraine but get annoyed that they seem to pick which countries they want to help. 

Ps calling people haw haw might make you feel funny but it makes you sound like a petulant child

[Fanta]

11 minutes ago, vlad said:

You have seen Apartment blocks burnt out and destroyed Apartment buildings and Hospitals on fire yet you still deny or agree with the way the Russian military is going about their business. You can ignore the Rapes of kids, women, and mass graves it does not bother you, all you pump out is Proxy this or Proxy that it is plain and simple Russia is targetting women and children right or wrong Haw Haw? don't deflect or go off-topic are they deliberately targeting civilian buildings and killing non Combatants.

Haw Haw… again?
It is pointless arguing logic against emotion. 

Yes they are. Why are the civilians even there and why are the buildings being targeted are a few of the questions you refuse to face. 

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule129_sectionb

 

[Fester]

35 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Haw Haw… again?
It is pointless arguing logic against emotion. 

Yes they are. Why are the civilians even there and why are the buildings being targeted are a few of the questions you refuse to face. 

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule129_sectionb

What's this VDO for? Footage at least 2 weeks old showing a Z tank having a bit of rare luck!

[Fanta]

18 minutes ago, Fester said:

What's this VDO for? Footage at least 2 weeks old showing a Z tank having a bit of rare luck!

A soldier inside a building shooting a tank. Some people wonder why buildings are being attacked. 

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

A soldier inside a building shooting a tank. Some people wonder why buildings are being attacked. 

Well knock me down with a feather Trevor, we have an Ukranian firing out of an Ukranian building onto to Russian troops and tanks that should not be there and that is your excuse for firing on civilian buildings. That has to be one of your craziest excuses to date.

I think Putin will have earmarked you for one of Russia's highest accolades.

[Fanta]

21 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

I think Putin will have earmarked you for one of Russia's highest accolades.

I think Zelenskyy will have you earmarked  for cannon fodder after you finished your propaganda tour. Mission failed successfully.

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I think Zelenskyy will have you earmarked  for cannon fodder after you finished your propaganda tour. Mission failed successfully.

Another mass grave discovered just outside Mariupol, but let's put that down to propaganda as well then shall we, we can all go to bed tonight and rest assured we have all done what we can to deflect the blame from Putin.

"The discovery of mass graves has led to accusations that the Russians are trying to conceal the slaughter of civilians in the city."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-united-nations-6dd0269cf17fdb64e9b7e5ab482b1d43

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

I think Zelenskyy will have you earmarked  for cannon fodder after you finished your propaganda tour. Mission failed successfully.

Was that carp composed with some hope of a Kremlin gong in mind?

[Fanta]

26 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

“The discovery of mass graves has led to accusations that the Russians are trying to conceal the slaughter of civilians in the city."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-united-nations-6dd0269cf17fdb64e9b7e5ab482b1d43

Civiilans are dead because a battle was fought for 2 months in a city of 450,00 people. How did they die? Who buried them? When? You assume so much. I’ll wait for the courts to decide. 

[Marble-eye]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Civiilans are dead because a battle was fought for 2 months in a city of 450,00 people. How did they die? Who buried them? When? You assume so much. I’ll wait for the courts to decide. 

They all might be all dead by then whilst you are whistling and twiddling your thumbs.

There is only one reason why a battle is taking place on Ukrainian soil, I'll give you a clue, it is because the Russians are there when they shouldn't be, no Russians no deaths, see how easy that was.

[vlad]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

I've wasted enough time on Haw-Haw he won't answer questions or admit women and kids have been raped and murdered by Russian forces. Until Haw-Haw lifts his goggles up, it's pointless answering him and he is boring and I'm no longer going to feed him.

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

In other news, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin told reporters after a trip to Ukraine's capital city of Kyiv that "we want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine." 
oldschooler’s belief that the Ukraine conflict  is a bear trap laid by NATO becomes more credible every day.

The old "correlation vs causation" argument. The fact the West would love to see the Russian army weakened, doesn't prove they caused Putin to invade Ukraine. 

Clearly Austin spoke out of turn, but the fact is he didn't say anything everyone already didn't know. Even so, the US was more than happy to let demographics do the job. However since Putin decided to speed it up, the West can work with that too. 

[EdwardV]

In other interesting news, seems the Germans are starting to come around. They just authorized the sale of anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine: 

 

The German government said Tuesday it will deliver anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine after facing strong pressure at home and abroad to abandon its reluctance to supply heavy weapons to Kyiv. The decision to provide the “Gepard” tanks, which come from German defense industry stocks, was made at a closed-door government meeting on Monday ... The Gepard, a tank with two 35-millimeter anti-air cannons that can be upgraded with “Stinger” anti-aircraft missiles, was phased out from the German army more than 10 years ago. But many of these tanks are still parked at German defense company Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, which has signaled interest in refurbishing the vehicles and selling them to Ukraine.

There was no mention of how many units were to be sold. Later in the article there was a mention about tanks which are still not approved:

 

A spokesperson for the German Economy Ministry, which is in charge of approving arms exports, had no immediate reply on whether the approval of Gepard sales from industry stocks meant the government would also approve other industry requests to sell German tanks to Ukraine. According to the German daily Welt, German defense company Rheinmetall has requested authorization to export 88 Leopard 1A5 heavy battle tanks as well as 100 Marder light tanks to Ukraine, while Krauss-Maffei Wegmann also wants to deliver 100 artillery units of the model Panzerhaubitze 2000. A government spokesperson told reporters on Monday that a decision on such export requests would be made “in a timely manner.”

Germany approves tank sales to Ukraine, bowing to pressure – POLITICO

I knew about the Marder request, and had heard Rheimmetall wanted to sell the Leopards also. However the sale of 100 Panzerhaubitze artillery units would be huge. Those are arguably one of the finest self propelled artillery units in the world. A hundred of them, in addition to the artillery units from America, France, Netherlands and others might be enough to even the odds with Russia. You would be talking about adding almost 250 units of artillery to the Ukrainian army. 

 

 

[Fanta]

8 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You would be talking about adding almost 250 units of artillery to the Ukrainian army. 

Good news provided they actually make it to the battlefield. The flood of weapons into Ukraine has to be a priority target for the Russians. 

[EdwardV]

26 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Good news provided they actually make it to the battlefield. The flood of weapons into Ukraine has to be a priority target for the Russians. 

No doubt true and there are certainly going to be some success. However:

Striking those new, larger shipments, if they come by both rail and road, could prove difficult for Russia over the long run, however. Russia’s pilots remain wary of testing Ukraine’s air defenses and the Kremlin will likely need to start conserving some of its long-range precision weapons. “[Russia’s] stockpiles aren’t necessarily large” when it comes to weapons such as Kalibr and Iskander precision missiles, Gorenburg said. “They are using them up, and they don’t want to use them all because that would weaken their ability to fight NATO” in the near future. And so far, Russia has not been effective at disrupting the supply lines, primarily because its military is “not very good at dynamic targeting” — in other words, hitting a moving object rather than a stationary target such as a building, Mulroy said.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/25/russia-western-weapons-shipments-ukraine-donbas-00027663?_amp=true

They started by hitting those five rail junctions yesterday. While not destroying weapons (?), no doubt it will slow down delivery until they get repaired. 

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Gorenburg said. “ And so far, Russia has not been effective at disrupting the supply lines, primarily because its military is “not very good at dynamic targeting” — in other words, hitting a moving object rather than a stationary target such as a building, Mulroy said.

That’s a questionable interpretation of the Russian Air Force’s known attacks to date. Why send a sortie to destroy tanks when you can destroy the logistics required to keep them effective. 

[vlad]

Now we can add Blackmail to Putin's long list of offenses. Today Gas is to be turned off to Bulgaria and Poland because in Putin's words Unfriendly countries must pay in Roubles. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61237519

[Fanta]

40 minutes ago, vlad said:

Now we can add Blackmail to Putin's long list of offenses. Today Gas is to be turned off to Bulgaria and Poland because in Putin's words Unfriendly countries must pay in Roubles. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61237519

Do I hear a pot calling the kettle black?

Russian gas supply to Poland resumes; Ukraine condemns 'gas blackmail'

Russian gas supplies to Poland were halted briefly on Wednesday, data from the European 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-27/ukraine-russia-invasion-war-kyiv-zelenskyy-live-updates/101017174

 

[vlad]

The Seagull is round the bins again.

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Do I hear a pot calling the kettle black?

Russian gas supply to Poland resumes; Ukraine condemns 'gas blackmail'

Russian gas supplies to Poland were halted briefly on Wednesday, data from the European 

Are you saying it’s not blackmail?

I don’t think Ukraine pointing out that fact is hypocrisy since they still want countries to stop accepting oil and gas from Russia. It’s just calling a spade a spade. 
 

i do find it interesting Russia would turn the gas back on with Poland and not Bulgaria. Would that be because Poland said they were fine with it off? Gas and oil deliveries are very different for Russia. You can store oil, that’s not really the case with gas. It takes a lot of time and money to build storage, and even then it’s usually limited in size. It’s the whole  liquid vs gas issue. If Russia turns off the gas to a country they can’t store the gas to sell later, they have to flare it instead. 
 

Turning off the gas is a bit of a hollow threat as it hurts Russia more than Europe in the long run. Especially now with winter ending. In going after Bulgaria he’s attacking the low hanging fruit. Problem is it’s also the low reward fruit. Breaking Bulgaria won’t convince others to change their mind, since they already see Russia can’t afford to go after the bigger targets. He should have left the gas off for Poland even if he was taking the bigger hit in doing so. 

[oldschooler]

On 4/26/2022 at 1:20 PM, Fanta said:

I watched the video. Did you read the statement quoting the Russian dude stating war by proxy?
Allegations are unproven accusations and I doubt them for the same reason that mob justice doesn’t appeal to me. I let your video of war crime graves slide because you are understandably passionate about it. I believe in evidence, courts and the power of propaganda.
Rhetorical questions: Why don’t you ever condemn Ukraine for not moving civilians out of a war zone?  for fighting pitched battles in cities? for moving artillery into urban areas? Here’s one we can both understand but cannot excuse.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10636597/Ukrainian-doctor-tells-TV-interviewer-ordered-staff-CASTRATE-Russian-soldiers.html

Ukrainians get to decide , exclusively, how best to defend their homeland and how to treat the savage invaders. 

Russian GC Violations = Ukraine “ Open Season” on Russian Murderers, Torturers & Rapists. Natural Justice.

Overwhelming Evidence so far of Russian Atrocities such that UK / EU Govts. have declared them as Facts even as EU investigators complete the evidence gathering for ICC court.

Don’t need a court to tell me the Arctic is cold or water is wet.

[Fanta]

31 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Are you saying it’s not blackmail?

Who called Russia’s actions blackmail? 
It is a sanction on payments in US dollars for Russian energy products. Pot Kettle Black.

And the gas is back on again so they must have worked out a suitable arrangement that can avoid sanctions.

What’s the fuss about anyway? Poland can survive without Russian oil and gas as can Bulgaria. It should speed up the transition away from their dependence on Russian energy. Short term pain for a long term gain. 

”Government officials said Poland's gas storage of 3.5 bcm is 76% full and it will not have to cut supplies to customers to cope with Gazprom supply halt. Meanwhile, Bulgaria said it has taken steps to find alternative gas supply and no restrictions on gas consumption was required for now.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-gas-supplies-poland-halted-polish-media-reports-2022-04-26/

 

 

[Fanta]

40 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Ukrainians get to decide , exclusively, how best to defend their homeland and how to treat the savage invaders. 

So execute all Russian POWs, bayonet the wounded and rape then kill any Russian civilians that the Ukrainians can lay their hands on. And then toss a few chemical weapons into some Russian primary schools to teach those little snot bubblers a lesson! Sounds like a plan?  Because all is fair in love and war, right? Hmmm…..