News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

No they are not, but then neither is Russia at the current time. Why do you think Russia will press for peace, with the Donbas they will have little more than what they started with? I thought Putin wanted security for Russia? Donbas doesn’t do that for him. Zelenskyy isn’t going to agree to any deal that doesn’t guarantee Ukraine security. His original demand was basically a NATO light with an article 5.  At the very least he will want the ability to build up the military with modern heavy weapons. He and the west know another Russian attack would just be a matter of a few years. 

I said “IF Russia… “. I didn’t say Russia will. My point is that Zelenskyy could well pay a crippling political price if he is forced to go back on his statements that he won’t entertain peace talks and he won’t swap territory for peace —-> enter anti Zelenskky/pro Russian government. A Ukraine with no NATO involvement and the 2 disputed regions part of Russia = mission accomplished. A pro Russian government is a bonus and if Ukraine loses, politically or militarily, it is not hard to see that becoming a reality.  And is this “Russia wants to conquer Europe” claim just scare mongering based on the  “It happened once so it will happen again” presumption? Maybe Putin does wants to rebuild the Soviet empire in a new format but that doesn’t include most European countries.

[Rookiescot]

7 hours ago, butterfly said:

well, Churchill almost did in Dunkerque when the entire British army was marooned there,

and France, Poland, Belgium, Netherland etc... certainly did surrender

Hitler was ruling over western Europe, and bombed London into almost oblivion

if it wasn't for his Russia war mistake, maybe we would all be speaking German now, including the Brits 

Was Russia fighting in north Africa? Or the far east? Was Russia sending relief convoys to the UK?

You would be speaking German right now if we followed your policy of appeasement towards Hitler.

[EdwardV]

36 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My point is that Zelenskyy could well pay a crippling political price if he is forced to go back on his statements that he won’t entertain peace talks and he won’t swap territory for peace

So you are arguing he won’t agree to a peace deal? Russia has already given him an advanced course on how to pretend to negotiate. 

[Politenessman]

8 hours ago, Poolie said:

Hey Godwin. There's a theory going spare!

Wow, gutsy move invoking Godwins Law when discussing a European war, started by a dictator who has already annexed other territories.

It's almost as if you don't understand either the subject or Godwins law.

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

So you are arguing he won’t agree to a peace deal? Russia has already given him an advanced course on how to pretend to negotiate. 

For the third time - I am saying that Zelenskyy’s latest statements that he will not enter into peace talks if the Russians destroy the remaining Ukrainian forces in Mariupol or exchange land for peace could well come back to bite him in the political ass. Whether Zelenskyy enters into peace talks or accepts a peace deal is largely dependent on Ukraine position of strength aka military success or failure. 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

Wow, gutsy move invoking Godwins Law when discussing a European war, started by a dictator who has already annexed other territories.

It's almost as if you don't understand either the subject or Godwins law.

Dont expect too much from Poolie.

He's a seagull poster.

Swoops in. Shits everywhere. Takes off.

[Politenessman]

8 hours ago, butterfly said:

do you even have any evidence of that? yeah, thought so too 

The fact that he annexed Crimea, Georgia and has now moved on to Donbass, Lugansk and is pushing into Ukraine. Then there is the list of "independent states" only recognised by Russia that will make great pretexts for more expansion.

Past behaviour is the best indicator of future actions, so yes I have evidence of that, rather a lot of evidence in fact.

As a matter of interest, how have you managed to not notice such blindingly obvious evidence.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

For the third time - I am saying that Zelenskyy’s latest statements that he will not enter into peace talks if the Russians destroy the remaining Ukrainian forces in Mariupol or exchange land for peace could well come back to bite him in the political ass. 

Why should it be up to Zelensky to make concessions? Why not Czar Putin?

[Politenessman]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Dont expect too much from Poolie.

He's a seagull poster.

Swoops in. Shits everywhere. Takes off.

Yes I've noticed that, but I would consider it an insult to seagulls, they aren't that stupid.

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why should it be up to Zelensky to make concessions? Why not Czar Putin?

Whether Zelenskyy or Putin enter into peace talks or accept a peace deal is largely dependent on their positions of strength aka military successes or failures. And pride :-(

[Politenessman]

5 hours ago, butterfly said:

The Brits barely escaped Dunkerque, and Hitler was too busy on the Russian front

then the Allies came to the rescue, otherwise you would be speaking German as a Brit 

Lets see - the Brits escaped Dunkirk because they didn't surrender, and in spite of a major defeat, went on to win the war.

Hitler wasn't busy on the Russian front at that time, he turned to the Russian front because invading Britain was not possible.

Hitler gave up on invading Britain long before the US came into the war.

[Zorba_the_Geek]

The former comedian faces down the psychotic clown. 

There will be peace only when the clown is putin a casket.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Whether Zelenskyy or Putin enter into peace talks or accept a peace deal is largely dependent on their positions of strength aka military successes or failures. And pride :-(

Sure but it also depends on what the other party is demanding. Zelensky cannot and will not hand over more territory to Czar Putin. They did that already with the Crimea and he still invaded a few years later. 

[Zorba_the_Geek]

2 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

Lets see - the Brits escaped Dunkirk because they didn't surrender, and in spite of a major defeat, went on to win the war.

Hitler wasn't busy on the Russian front at that time, he turned to the Russian front because invading Britain was not possible.

Hitler gave up on invading Britain long before the US came into the war.

Semantics, the only lesson here is occupation always eventually ends badly, and bankrupts the occupiers. Only timeframes differ. Nobody has learned from failed Roman adventurism.

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Zelensky cannot and will not hand over more territory to Czar Putin. They did that already with the Crimea and he still invaded a few years later

On a military level Zelenskyy may not have a choice if facing total defeat. His own advisors would turn on him to save the country if defeat is inevitable and on the path  to an unconditional surrender. As you said “it all depends on what the other party is demanding.” imo, Zelenskky’s recent statements are just talk that he cannot follow through with IF Ukraine doesn’t win.  More power to him, everyone likes an underdog especially one that stands up to a bully and says F U 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Are you seriously saying that if a politician is perceived as being dishonest by the opposition, it is fair and square to topple a duly elected government?

  And you STILL do not understand why the Western hegemon is so utterly called out by anyone outside it's sphere these days?

The traitor left his post when he ran away back to his Russian masters.
His “dishonesty “ of denying a much wanted EU deal was fact not “perception”.

Only tyrants “call out” the free West.

No mention of Russian support of oppression in Belarus & Kazazkstan.then. 

[oldschooler]

49 minutes ago, Zorba_the_Geek said:

Semantics, the only lesson here is occupation always eventually ends badly, and bankrupts the occupiers. Only timeframes differ. Nobody has learned from failed Roman adventurism.

Romans conquered, settled & civilized western europe for over four hundred years. Some “ adventure”.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

For the third time - I am saying that Zelenskyy’s latest statements that he will not enter into peace talks if the Russians destroy the remaining Ukrainian forces in Mariupol or exchange land for peace could well come back to bite him in the political ass. Whether Zelenskyy enters into peace talks or accepts a peace deal is largely dependent on Ukraine position of strength aka military success or failure. 

Can we perhaps drop these “peace” ( surrender) fantasies and discuss the reality of a war being fought. US long range artillery is about to be engaged against Russian forces in Donbass ? 

[Rookiescot]

37 minutes ago, Fanta said:

On a military level Zelenskyy may not have a choice if facing total defeat. His own advisors would turn on him to save the country if defeat is inevitable and on the path  to an unconditional surrender. As you said “it all depends on what the other party is demanding.” imo, Zelenskky’s recent statements are just talk that he cannot follow through with IF Ukraine doesn’t win.  More power to him, everyone likes an underdog especially one that stands up to a bully and says F U 

Believe me. If Czar Putin thinks he is winning there are no negotiations. Only surrender.

[oldschooler]

56 minutes ago, Fanta said:

On a military level Zelenskyy may not have a choice if facing total defeat. His own advisors would turn on him to save the country if defeat is inevitable and on the path  to an unconditional surrender. As you said “it all depends on what the other party is demanding.” imo, Zelenskky’s recent statements are just talk that he cannot follow through with IF Ukraine doesn’t win.  More power to him, everyone likes an underdog especially one that stands up to a bully and says F U 

Many ifs buts & maybes. Ukraine Surrender Ain’t Happening. End. Perhaps now we can stay grounded in reality, I. e. the progress of the war. 
US Long Range Artillery pieces arrive when ? LR Shelling of Russian forces in Donbass starts when ?

[Fanta]

15 minutes ago, Transam said:

You must think I'm daft.....

I wouldn’t say daft. Slow learner perhaps? If you want to trade jibes I suggest you double up on your adult diapers to protect the furniture, and those around you, from any uncontrollable bladder malfunctions that may occur after someone explains to you the meaning of any negative communications between us. Let’s not go there. Have a dry day! 

[oldschooler]

6 minutes ago, Transam said:

Pleeeeease go read some history, you are lost here.....

“ yes but”….But Hitler “almost” took Moscow, Stalingrad & Leningrad “almost” captured the British Army ….and Denmark surrenderedand “ peace” made with Vichy France…. Oh wait a minute ….that was “ surrender” too…

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Many ifs buts & maybes. Ukraine Surrender Ain’t Happening. End. Perhaps now we can stay grounded in reality, I. e. the progress of the war. 
US Long Range Artillery shelling of Russian forces in Donbass starts when ?

It is always hypothetical until the end. The reality is that Ukraine continues to fall back/lose ground in the east and the disputed regions may well be surrounded with a mopping up process to follow before the Russians move onto the next target. The US supplied artillery will be the next target for the Russian Air Force flying through an air defense that a Ukrainian air defense soldier describes as a big flyswatter with big holes in it. 

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, Transam said:

That's off-topic, you could start another thread.

Not a good word from you regarding Ukraine and it's achievements against this ridiculous aggression attack.

Now if you want to hide behind the "I am debating" thing, then you should be including the minnow that is giving the big fish a bloody nose, as I said, I am not daft...

So discuss the topic, not your beliefs as to my motivations. 

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It is always hypothetical until the end. The reality is that Ukraine continues to fall back/lose ground in the east and the disputed regions may well be surrounded with a mopping up process to follow before the Russians move onto the next target. The US supplied artillery will be the next target for the Russian Air Force flying through an air defense that a Ukrainian air defense soldier describes as a big flyswatter with big holes in it. 

Waiting to see yet any meaningful Russian air strikes plus how they get on against  the western supplied latest air defence systems.