News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[oldschooler]

NATO could never change the evil unfree nature of Russia, only use that knowledge to shape the strategy to best deal with it. If Russia were Free there would be no NATO. 

[Fester]

9 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

What does it mean, I have a bridge to sell you?

Many years ago it was said that con men in New York City used to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to suckers as a scam. I don’t know whether it was an urban myth or it actually happened, and perhaps other famous bridges were used elsewhere. Nowadays, after something farfetched has been touted, someone might add, “And if you’ll believe that, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you,” i.e. you’re gullible and you’ll believe anything.

If you believe that the actor who played a president on TV, who was hired to be a president is actually in control and running things... well I've got a bridge to sell you. As a former member of the OSCE from 2016-2021 (you're going to have to go look that up) I can tell you the conflict that has been raging in Ukraine since the "West's" engineered coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014 is no longer a conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It is now a war between those who have vested interests in an anachronism we call NATO. As a "treaty organization" you have to admit, they have clearly failed their mission. 

You will have to prove this "engineered coup de tat" as fact. Or are you trying to sell us a bridge?

[Fester]

9 hours ago, Fanta said:

Perhaps it is wishful thinking from me to hope Putin would leave Ukraine if his demands are met.  So the options for Ukraine are a negotiated peace (conditional surrender) or a fight to the death (victory/unconditional surrender). That is grim for Ukraine. And one last big push to break open a stalemate?  No. This is not a blitzkrieg and any recent map showing territory taken to date etc will show there is no stalemate. Russia has juice left in the tank for many more pushes and this is not their first rodeo. Time and sheer numbers are on Russia’s side. They are controlling the war and deciding where the next battle is. Ukraine is definitely not winning this war to date. We saw a 64 km long Russian convoy enter Ukraine but we didn’t see it destroyed or severely damaged. We see destroyed Russian tanks daily and snap shots of individual Russian tanks being destroyed in battle but never scenes of pitched tank battles or the aftermath etc When are the Ukrainian military losses ever shown? Only civilian deaths and destroyed buildings are shown. We are simply not getting the full picture of these battles and subsequently the whole war. Maybe what Zelenskyy was really saying when he said “no peace talks” was that time has passed. Otherwise his threat was as empty as his naval docks and Air Force bases. I also hope peace will come soon but I greatly doubt it.

This blitzkrieg failed early doors. Recent maps show plans B, C, D etc.

Yes, Russia is controlling the war but dictating where the next battle is.

The 40 mile Russian convoy was partially destroyed and later dispersed - plenty of VDO evidence on the news. 

[Fester]

8 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I really shouldn't need to explain this too you... but for the other folks at home who may be equally confused... I'll take the time.

From their website... two important words. "Prevent Conflict" 

NATO has failed... 

POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations.

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

If Russia was a member of NATO then that would have prevented Putin's aggression. 

Note that your words long run could still apply to future events.

[Fester]

4 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

What a load of carp. No NATO member state has been invaded by Vlad The Bad. Wonder why? 

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, Fester said:

This blitzkrieg failed early doors. Recent maps show plans B, C, D etc.

Yes, Russia is controlling the war but dictating where the next battle is.

The 40 Russian convoy was partially destroyed and later dispersed - plenty of VDO evidence on the news. 

What blitzkrieg? Are you talking about the claim by MSM that Russia planned to take Ukraine in 3 days? I have never seen this confirmed by a credible source. Unless you have credible links?

And the Convoy 40 was redeployed. Even the Kyiv Independent acknowledges that while quoting CNN as it’s source.
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-10-22/h_91cef885a440364698cddfc105ffb391

 

[vlad]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I was responding to the old fellas claim re NATO setting traps for countries etc which in my opinion is not what NATO should be about and why some people might deem it to be aggressively expanding 

I'd imagine by the sheer amount of money and weapons America provides NATO they would have the biggest say in how its run anyway 

I'd agree the Ukrainian suffering is down to Putin no doubt

Nato has pretty well done enough to supply the correct weaponry for Ukraine to carry the fight to Putins ground troops from the most up-to-date Anti-air missile systems to tanks from Poland and more heavily armored vehicles are arriving daily. The only thing Nato has not supplied is Boots on the ground and Aircraft. That's, why only Maripol has been taken 1 city was totally destroyed because he was scared his troops, would be beaten so stand well off and target it with missiles from miles away. So much for the third biggest military force in the world Pathetic really. What has Putin achieved has he took most city's no. He had a go to the west and got his arse kicked so gave up and ran away to the East.

[vlad]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

What blitzkrieg? Are you talking about the claim by MSM that Russia planned to take Ukraine in 3 days? I have never seen this confirmed by a credible source. Unless you have credible links?

And the Convoy 40 was redeployed. Even the Kyiv Independent acknowledges that while quoting CNN as it’s source.
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-10-22/h_91cef885a440364698cddfc105ffb391

Your wasting your time Fester Lord Haw Haw doesn't like to show how Russia is being defeated so he will carry on the old " Show me Show me " he knows fully well Russia is not doing well but sides with Putins war effort.

[Fanta]

Just now, vlad said:

Your wasting your time Fester Lord Haw Haw doesn't like to show how Russia is being defeated so he will carry on the old " Show me Show me " he knows fully well Russia is not doing well but sides with Putins war effort.

Statements presented as facts must be accompanied by a link to a credible source.

btw: looked at a map or read news about the war lately? The map is 5 days old but you get idea. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

[Politenessman]

22 hours ago, francoa said:

when u have a president who is an actor with zero political and diplomatic experience, this is what happens. Ukraine will be annihilated for the populistic sake of “ we dont give up”

Sometimes, the life of people and infrastructure is more important than being a “hero”. 

Tell that to the Ukrainians that Stalin starved to death.

Then tell the British that, when the going got tough in WW2 they could have spared so much infrastructure and lives if they had surrendered.

BTW, if "we don't give up" is so "populistic" (aka popular) what right does a leader have to surrender?

 

[Fester]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

What blitzkrieg? Are you talking about the claim by MSM that Russia planned to take Ukraine in 3 days? I have never seen this confirmed by a credible source. Unless you have credible links?

And the Convoy 40 was redeployed. Even the Kyiv Independent acknowledges that while quoting CNN as it’s source.
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-10-22/h_91cef885a440364698cddfc105ffb391

 

I'm talking about the initial assault on Kiev which was obviously made with the objective of rapid success. Nothing to do with any claims by MSM, rather than informed analysis by military experts. "Convoy 40" was part of this assault but looked to be the first failure of many which resulted in the Russian objective not being reached. "Redeployment" was a just word used to save face as part of regular, ongoing Russian propaganda.

 

[Fester]

12 minutes ago, vlad said:

Your wasting your time Fester Lord Haw Haw doesn't like to show how Russia is being defeated so he will carry on the old " Show me Show me " he knows fully well Russia is not doing well but sides with Putins war effort.

Unfortunately, I have time to reply - see above.

[Fanta]

27 minutes ago, Fester said:

I'm talking about the initial assault on Kiev which was obviously made with the objective of rapid success. Nothing to do with any claims by MSM, rather than informed analysis by military experts. "Convoy 40" was part of this assault but looked to be the first failure of many which resulted in the Russian objective not being reached. "Redeployment" was a just word used to save face as part of regular, ongoing Russian propaganda.

So the Kyiv Independent reprints Russian face saving words from a CNN article? This is the same Kyiv Independent website that think it is “ironic” that dead Russian soldiers are being dug up and then bartered for live Ukrainian soldiers. 

“Six of them will be exchanged for two Ukrainian soldiers taken as prisoners of war in a rare instance of an unofficial swap between the opposing armies on the battlefield.” 

https://kyivindependent.com/national/how-ukraine-swaps-living-soldiers-for-dead-russians/

Edited April 18, 2022 by Smithydog
non working URL link updated

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, Fester said:

Unfortunately, I have time to reply - see above.

And clearly no time to supply any credible links to support your claims of a blitzkrieg plan or plans B, C or D or Convoy 40 being partially destroyed. Surely video and news of the latter would be all over MSM, much the same as the Highway of Death was in a Iraq? 

[Politenessman]

19 hours ago, EdwardV said:

It would be a surrender by at least one side. What makes you think Putin would want peace now? He’s getting ready to attack again, one last big push to try and break open the stalemate. He has to fail first before he’d even consider it. If he succeeds there is no way he allows Ukraine to surrender unless it’s unconstitutionally. Ukraine on the other hand can’t stop fighting unless they win. To do so means the end of Ukraine as an independent country. That’s certainly not going to happen even if Russia occupies the entire country. Ukraine has a long and storied history of defiance to the end (and that includes against Russia). Hate to say, but I don’t see this ending anytime soon. 

No, Putin isn't getting ready for one last push - he has already failed, he had to win fast because his military was utterly unprepared for a long fight - already over 20% of his force has been rendered combat ineffective, which is why they withdrew at speed from the Kyiv region - it has become apparent that Russian logistics is vastly inadequate to the task, his Belarusian ally is quietly backing away from active involvement, the Russians lack night vision devices as almost all of their attacks are by day, their comms have failed (generals having to go forward and getting sniped, plus "in clear" comms intercepts), their armoured doctrine is inadequate (routinely operating tanks without adequate infantry support) for the last war AND it is now running into game changing next generation ATGWs like NLAWS and Javelin, their troops to a large degree are unmotivated (hence all the surrenders and abandoned gear), overconfidence has cost them the superiority they needed in the Black Sea to be able to perform amphib ops against Odessa - their intelligence was either incredibly incompetent or unwilling to tell Putin that it wouldn't be a 3 day drive to a victory parade in Kyiv, nobody in Russia understood the level of economic damage sanctions are now doing to Russia and the west has barely begun supplying heavy weapons to Ukraine.

The longer this goes, the worse it will go for Russia, Putin is looking for a face saving way out (if I were on his high command, I'd be expecting a firing squad as a traitor).

BTW that whirring sound you hear in the distance, that is Marshal Zhukov spinning in his grave as he sees what the Red Army has become.

[Fester]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So the Kyiv Independent reprints Russian face saving words from a CNN article? This is the same Kyiv Independent website that think it is “ironic” that dead Russian soldiers are being dug up and then bartered for live Ukrainian soldiers. 

“Six of them will be exchanged for two Ukrainian soldiers taken as prisoners of war in a rare instance of an unofficial swap between the opposing armies on the battlefield.” 

https://kyivindependent.com/national/how-ukraine-swaps-living-soldiers-for-dead-russians/

Your link also prompted a  "risky connection" warning, thanks a lot.

Error 404

Nothing Found

It seems that we can’t find what you’re looking for. Perhaps searching can help.

  

 

[Smithydog]

6 minutes ago, Fester said:

Error 404

Nothing Found

It seems that we can’t find what you’re looking for. Perhaps searching can help.

  

For the information of members, the URL Link containing the quoted text has been updated on behalf of member. Appeared to have a typo in the original link.

[Fester]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And clearly no time to supply any credible links to support your claims of a blitzkrieg plan or plans B, C or D or Convoy 40 being partially destroyed. Surely video and news of the latter would be all over MSM, much the same as the Highway of Death was in a Iraq? 

https://www.dw.com/en/putins-idea-of-blitzkrieg-failed-says-former-ukraine-president/a-61084660

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/has-russia-emulated-nazi-blitzkrieg-in-its-invasion-of-ukraine

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-03-23-expert-comment-ukraine-war-putin-s-masterclass-delusion-denial-and-defeat

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/02/putin-escalates-the-war-on-ukraine-as-blitzkrieg-calculations-fail

[Fanta]

18 minutes ago, Transam said:

Still backing the bad boy's up I see......

Discussing, debating and learning. Not sitting at the back of the bus with the cool kids heckling. You should try it. you might learn something. 

[Politenessman]

13 minutes ago, Fester said:

https://www.dw.com/en/putins-idea-of-blitzkrieg-failed-says-former-ukraine-president/a-61084660

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/has-russia-emulated-nazi-blitzkrieg-in-its-invasion-of-ukraine

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-03-23-expert-comment-ukraine-war-putin-s-masterclass-delusion-denial-and-defeat

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/02/putin-escalates-the-war-on-ukraine-as-blitzkrieg-calculations-fail

If you get hold of some of the earlier maps of Russian advances, you'll note a lot of salients directed towards surrounding and capturing Kyiv, salients like that are a sign of a Blitzkrieg (they are also a win quick or lose big strategy as they invite having your force cut off and destroyed in detail) - it is why the Russians retreated so fast and abandoned anything that broke down or ran out of fuel, the fear of being surrounded.

In theory such 'pockets' could be supplied by air, but between the failures of almost every aspect of the Russian military to date and faced with modern NATO MANPADS it seems unlikely that much in the way of supply could be delivered by air to encircled troops.

 

[Fanta]

16 minutes ago, Fester said:

https://www.dw.com/en/putins-idea-of-blitzkrieg-failed-says-former-ukraine-president/a-61084660

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/has-russia-emulated-nazi-blitzkrieg-in-its-invasion-of-ukraine

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-03-23-expert-comment-ukraine-war-putin-s-masterclass-delusion-denial-and-defeat

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/02/putin-escalates-the-war-on-ukraine-as-blitzkrieg-calculations-fail

Did you even read any of those articles you claim are credible sources about Russia’s plan for a Blitzkrieg? Or just Googled for Blitzkrieg Ukraine?  You probably didn’t have the time. Again. No problem, I read them for you and here’s a quick summary. 

1st link - “Petro Poroshenko has said Ukrainian unity halted Moscow's advance. Speaking with DW, the former president also called on NATO to support his country with defense capabilities.”  - absolutely no bias at all from the ex Ukrainian president?

2nd link - “Yet, the concept of blitzkrieg in the context of Russian operations is a misnomer or a misuse because this is not necessarily what has informed Russian military movements or decisions.” - Quote

3rd link - an opinion piece,  not a statement of fact. 

4th link - Blitzkrieg is mentioned in the title only, not mentioned at ll in the article.

Enough said. 

 

[Poolie]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Did you even read any of those articles you claim are credible sources about Russia’s plan for a Blitzkrieg? Or just Googled for Blitzkrieg Ukraine?  You probably didn’t have the time. Again. No problem, I read them for you and here’s a quick summary. 

1st link - “Petro Poroshenko has said Ukrainian unity halted Moscow's advance. Speaking with DW, the former president also called on NATO to support his country with defense capabilities.”  - absolutely no bias at all from the ex Ukrainian president?

2nd link - “Yet, the concept of blitzkrieg in the context of Russian operations is a misnomer or a misuse because this is not necessarily what has informed Russian military movements or decisions.” - Quote

3rd link - an opinion piece,  not a statement of fact. 

4th link - Blitzkrieg is mentioned in the title only, not mentioned at ll in the article.

Enough said. 

After the Americans quoting their sources as 'messing with Putin's head' I'm surprised anyone puts any credence in them at all.

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, vlad said:

That's, why only Maripol has been taken 1 city was totally destroyed because he was scared his troops, would be beaten so stand well off and target it with missiles from miles away. So much for the third biggest military force in the world Pathetic really. What has Putin achieved has he took most city's no. He had a go to the west and got his arse kicked so gave up and ran away to the East.

The war is not even 2 months old. Ukraine is not Poland with cavalry facing Germans with tanks in 1939. It took Russia 5 years (?)  to help achieve victory in Syria. 
Your admirable praise for Ukraine is sky high. Here’s a 5 day old map to bring you back to earth. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

 

 

[Fester]

25 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

If you get hold of some of the earlier maps of Russian advances, you'll note a lot of salients directed towards surrounding and capturing Kyiv, salients like that are a sign of a Blitzkrieg (they are also a win quick or lose big strategy as they invite having your force cut off and destroyed in detail) - it is why the Russians retreated so fast and abandoned anything that broke down or ran out of fuel, the fear of being surrounded.

In theory such 'pockets' could be supplied by air, but between the failures of almost every aspect of the Russian military to date and faced with modern NATO MANPADS it seems unlikely that much in the way of supply could be delivered by air to encircled troops.

Thanks, I think that part of the supply issue was to be solved by taking the Hostomel airport near Kyiv. After a brief success for the Russians, this was quickly retaken.

[Fester]

19 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Did you even read any of those articles you claim are credible sources about Russia’s plan for a Blitzkrieg? Or just Googled for Blitzkrieg Ukraine?  You probably didn’t have the time. Again. No problem, I read them for you and here’s a quick summary. 

1st link - “Petro Poroshenko has said Ukrainian unity halted Moscow's advance. Speaking with DW, the former president also called on NATO to support his country with defense capabilities.”  - absolutely no bias at all from the ex Ukrainian president?

2nd link - “Yet, the concept of blitzkrieg in the context of Russian operations is a misnomer or a misuse because this is not necessarily what has informed Russian military movements or decisions.” - Quote

3rd link - an opinion piece,  not a statement of fact. 

4th link - Blitzkrieg is mentioned in the title only, not mentioned at ll in the article.

Enough said. 

These links are all more credible than your weak and wobbly contribution. Enough said