News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Freeduhdumb]

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you would know its called Kyiv not Kiev.

I rest my case... You people believe whatever you want to believe... If you can't accept that the Ukraine was invaded in 2014 by the West... then I won't spend anymore time with you. I've said what needed to be said. Once again... Good Luck.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Freeduhdumb said:

I rest my case... You people believe whatever you want to believe... If can't accept that the Ukraine was invaded in 2014 by the West... then I won't spend anymore time with you. I've said what needed to be said. Once again... Good Luck.

The Ukraine was not invaded by the west.

It was however invaded by Russia in 2014 which annexed the Crimea. 

And Russian then supported terrorists in the Donbass and Luhansk. 

Tell me who shot down Malaysian flight 17?

[Fester]

19 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Hey friend... I'll let you in on a little secret... I lived there for four years as a member of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine from 2016-2021. I lived with the people in Mariupol, Kramatorsk and Lugansk. The coup de tat, regime change operation unseating the democratically elected leader Yakonovich in 2014 and the subsequent failure of Kiev to fully implement the Minsk II accords is what devastated the Donbass, long before this latest push by the West to escalate the conflict. The LPR and DPR existed as a natural response to when your country is invaded by the west deposing your democratically elected leader, and then attempt to wipe out your ethnicity within your own country... I stood with the Ukrainians and the Ethnic Russians... I now their plight. I don't simply fail to see anything. 

I didn't see any OSCE jobs posted for specialists in political bias and gullibility - maybe they scrapped them?

His name was Yanukovych by the way. Before your time, I know.

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Most people, when their country is invaded want to kick the invader out. 

What you want is for the country that has been invaded to capitulate. Thats not going to happen any time soon in the Ukraine. Get used to it.

Your moral outrage about the west supplying arms to facilitate what the Ukrainians want to do is totally faux. 

It was the Russian backed terrorists in the Donbass who repeatedly broke the Minsk agreement. Thats why it never held. 

The Budapest memorandum was signed by Czar Putin in which he guaranteed to respect the Ukraines  sovereignty and not to invade it so the Ukraine would get rid of their nukes. This turned out to be a total lie by Czar Putin. But then again he is known for being a total liar.

Had the Ukraine held onto those nukes do you think liar Putin would have invaded?

The Ukraine has never asked for, or even qualified for NATO membership. Such a claim is total nonsense. However when this war is over and Czar Putins thugs and mercenaries have been killed or thrown out you better expect that the Ukraine WILL be accepted into both the EU and NATO. Along with Finland and Sweden.

The noose tightens.

So really the only option remaining to Czar Putin is to become Chinas vassal state. Oh how the mighty have fallen. 

The Budapest Memorandum was signed by President Yeltsin in 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

In 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a law on the need to join NATO in the futurehttps://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

in Donbass people are different, as in the rest of Ukraine, but calling them all terrorists is one of the reasons for this crisis.

Do Kosovar freedom fighters and Donbass terrorists coexist well in your head? Doesn't this contain elements of militant chauvinism?

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

The shortage concerns only foreign industrial equipment and some household goods. In everyday products, I don’t observe any mass shortages. Non-cash dollars and euros can be bought and sold in bank applications at a rate less than before the crisis. They say that there is a shortage of cash dollars and euros, but in today's world I have no idea who needs cash.

True, however unlike during Soviet times, modern Russia is fully integrated with the global economy. It's why what little industry exists in Russia is shutting down (including military equipment factories). Yes life will go on in Russia, they are completely independent for energy and basic food (although the diet will become quite monochromatic). However life will not be normal. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Now you understand the plight of the LPR and DPR... and is why the Minsk Accords were agreed upon. Ukraine never held their part of the bargain to recognize the ethnic Russian population and their disenfranchisement. You've completely mis-understood and dismissed the history of this conflict. 

Except those areas are part of Ukraine, huge difference. Ukraine didn't invade a independent country, Russia did. 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

The Budapest Memorandum was signed by President Yeltsin in 1994. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

In 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted a law on the need to join NATO in the future https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

like in the rest of Ukraine, but calling everyone terrorists is one of the reasons for the current crisis.

Do Kosovar freedom fighters and Donbass terrorists coexist well in your head? Doesn't this contain elements of militant chauvinism?

OK I stand corrected that it was Yeltsin who signed the agreement.

Did Czar Putin respect that agreement? 

The Ukrainian parliament can pass whatever laws they want. That does not mean they get to join NATO because the rules for joining require you have stable borders which after Russias invasion in 2014 meant they couldn't. 

But you already knew that. Everyone does.

[KRLMRX]

45 minutes ago, Fester said:

NATO (KFOR) intervened as a consequence of the UN resolution. Putin still sees Milosevic as an innocent and thinks the Yugoslavian problems were caused by the US and NATO. It is as if Putin thinks he can justify the invasion of Ukraine using Yugoslavia as an excuse!

Putin rues the lost Soviet empire, especially in the Balkans, and especially the Geographical isolation of Serbia. Can I have my empire back? Nyet!

no, you did not understand.  

Putin considers NATO an aggressive military bloc, and over the past 20 years NATO has given him a reason to think so - operations not approved by the UN in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.  

And this gives Putin the opportunity to justify pre-emptive strikes against Ukraine.

[KRLMRX]

41 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then you would know its called Kyiv not Kiev.

no, for the last thousand years it has been Kiev.

Kyiv, it has become the last couple of years, this is just another way to show your anti-Russianness to the current Western-oriented government.

[KRLMRX]

19 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

OK I stand corrected that it was Yeltsin who signed the agreement.

Did Czar Putin respect that agreement? 

The Ukrainian parliament can pass whatever laws they want. That does not mean they get to join NATO because the rules for joining require you have stable borders which after Russias invasion in 2014 meant they couldn't. 

But you already knew that. Everyone does.

any treaty without the goodwill of the signatories is just a piece of paper. Russia and Belarus, for example, believed that the United States repeatedly violated paragraph 3 of the memorandum: Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their policies. (Economic sanctions)

[Rookiescot]

Just now, KRLMRX said:

no, you did not understand.  

Putin considers NATO an aggressive military bloc, and over the past 20 years NATO has given him a reason to think so - operations not approved by the UN in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.  

And this gives Putin the opportunity to justify pre-emptive strikes against Ukraine.

Really?

And this is only in modern times.

Soviet–Afghan War

Georgian Civil War

War in Abkhazia

 

Transnistria War

East Prigorodny Conflict

 

 

 

Tajikistani Civil War

 

 

First Chechen War

 

 

 

War of Dagestan

 

Second Chechen War

 

 

Russo-Georgian War

 

 

 

Insurgency in the North Caucasus

 

Russo-Ukrainian War

 

 

 

Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War

 

Central African Republic Civil War

Who is the aggressive party here? You like to paint Czar Putin as some kind of victim. It seems he is being picked on by others but look at that list. How many wars has Czar Putin and his thugs been involved in and continue to be involved in.

Czar Putin is a war mongering despot. But you think NATO is an aggressive party.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Freeduhdumb]

51 minutes ago, Fester said:

I didn't see any OSCE jobs posted for specialists in political bias and gullibility - maybe they scrapped them?

His name was Yanukovych by the way. Before your time, I know.

It's a real sign of your childish, inability to contribute to the conversation when all you and your friends do is waste your time commenting about spelling errors... I am well aware of the various spellings of places and names... don't take my laziness to go and correct all of my grammar and spelling for you, like its some kind of college book report, as I am an incompetent, unknowing fool. I well aware of the errors... Good Luck with all of your MSM, fact checking "news" and infotainment channels... I was there, I know what is actually going on there. Many of you on this forum are emblematic of just how inept humanity really is... Good Luck humanity, it's amazing we have lasted this long. 

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no, for the last thousand years it has been Kiev.

Kyiv, it has become the last couple of years, this is just another way to show your anti-Russianness to the current Western-oriented government.

Then get the name right. Should we call some places Leningrad or Stalingrad? 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It's a real sign of your childish, inability to contribute to the conversation when all you and your friends do is waste your time commenting about spelling errors... I am well aware of the various spellings of places and names... don't take my laziness to go and correct all of my grammar and spelling for you, like its some kind of college book report, as I am an incompetent, unknowing fool. I well aware of the errors... Good Luck with all of your MSM, fact checking "news" and infotainment channels... I was there, I know what is actually going on there. Many of you on this forum are emblematic of just inept humanity really is... Good Luck humanity, it's amazing we have lasted this long. 

You have to admit it looks somewhat suspicious when you cannot get the name of either a former Ukrainian President or indeed the capitol of the Ukraine right. 

[Rookiescot]

18 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

any treaty without the goodwill of the signatories is just a piece of paper. Russia and Belarus, for example, believed that the United States repeatedly violated paragraph 3 of the memorandum: Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their policies. (Economic sanctions)

Oh they believed.

Do they also believe in Santa and the tooth fairy?

[Grumpish]

9 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no, for the last thousand years it has been Kiev.

Kyiv, it has become the last couple of years, this is just another way to show your anti-Russianness to the current Western-oriented government.

Kiev is the Russian language spelling, Kyiv is the Ukrainian language spelling, and it was not Russian until late in the 17th century. Much of what is now western Ukraine was Polish territory until the German invasion in 1939, Germany took the western part of Poland and Russia the eastern half as part of Hitler's non-aggression pact with Stalin.

[Freeduhdumb]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You have to admit it looks somewhat suspicious when you cannot get the name of either a former Ukrainian President or indeed the capitol of the Ukraine right. 

Suspicious? Yet another reply with a non-substantiate reply adding nothing to the conversation. When you're out of demonstrable contributions... the best thing to do is to just stop... But that's not how it works when you've put yourself into a confirmation biased box isn't it. Good luck friends... go back to watching the Tele... tell you what to believe. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Freeduhdumb said:

Suspicious? Yet another reply with a non-substantiate reply adding nothing to the conversation. When you're out of demonstrable contributions... the best thing to do is to just stop... But that's not how it works when you've put yourself into a confirmation biased box isn't it. Good luck friends... go back to watching the Tele... tell you what to believe. 

Wow. How many of your buzz words did you manage to shoehorn in there?

Hey at least I can get the names right.

[Freeduhdumb]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Wow. How many of your buzz words did you manage to shoehorn in there?

Hey at least I can get the names right.

Yeah.. Wow!! Pretty amazing...

[oldschooler]

46 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no, you did not understand.  

Putin considers NATO an aggressive military bloc, and over the past 20 years NATO has given him a reason to think so - operations not approved by the UN in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.  

And this gives Putin the opportunity to justify pre-emptive strikes against Ukraine.

All as manipulated and intended by NATO since 2008 …….except that pre- emptive strikes are the exclusive tactics of tyrants and lack any proper modern justification.Ukraine was always going to get invaded & wrecked by Russia. NATO naturally anticipated that and used it to NATO advantage. 
 

Also no comparison between justified Democratic West striking against truly barbarous evil states and unjustified strike by similarly evil state against a democratic state.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Freeduhdumb said:

Yeah.. Wow!! Pretty amazing...

Pretty amazing that 5G didn't cause covid as well. Prepared to admit you got that wrong yet?

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

coup de tat

What does "coup de tat" means? I can't find it in an English vocabulary. Is it Russian?

I know of the French "coup d'état", is it the same?

[Vigo]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:12 AM, Thaidup said:

This is why I should avoid these topics. Because I instantly think of Iraq, and the invasion that led to a stable country becoming a haven for Islamic extremists and the hanging of bloke that kept all of that away. And now the American tax payer is dumping billions into a new war, FFS they just got out of Aghanastan, And now they have to be funding another war. Howabout letting the American people decide on the funding, have a referendum, IE spend the money in Ukraine or in America?

Iraq is different scenario and finished. You simplify what the repressive former despotic regime was like. The reality is that the  regime would have had to be changed at some point and all that the USA did was to expedite that change. Since that change, the region has been relatively peaceful and far less antagonistic to the west. 

The US government aid  is being spent on "America". The USA does not hand out money without conditions and without defined concrete benefits to the USA. Munitions have a shelf life. The USA and other countries regularly donate end of life or near end of life material to other countries. The javelin missiles being sent to the Ukraine are at the end of their lifespan.The helicopters and motor vehicles  are not new. The arms industry in the USA is indirectly subsidized through scheduled purchases and inventory refreshes.  The supplies destined for the Ukraine will be replaced by new supplies purchased from US manufacturers. In some cases the disposal of the equipment was already scheduled. Perhaps you will be as shocked to discover that hundreds of millions of $$ of medications are "donated" by USA every year in the same way because medications are only good for 1-2 years shelf life.

The humanitarian aid the USA is providing ensures that the economies and societies receiving the 4 million+ refugees are not destabilized. Russia had previously dumped large amounts of illegal economic migrants into the EU. Belarus was making a tidy sum doing this.  The US is helping Ukraine because it is good for USA. Russia has been cyber attacking USA for decades and been sabotaging US and western interests too. USA aid to Ukraine delays direct confrontation with Russia.

It is Ukrainians who are dying so that the USA does not have to face Russia. The Russians are not afraid of using nuclear weapons and the USA would be incinerated, as would Russia if that occurred. Unfortunately, alot of non nuclear countries would suffer the consequences. So yes, Americans are benefiting from sacrifice of Ukraine.

[Vigo]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:27 PM, francoa said:

when u have a president who is an actor with zero political and diplomatic experience, this is what happens. Ukraine will be annihilated for the populistic sake of “ we dont give up”

Sometimes, the life of people and infrastructure is more important than being a “hero”. 

The Ukrainians are a proud people. They do not wish to  give up their land and society to the Russians. The Ukraine president reflects the sentiment of the Ukraine people. Not everyone is a coward. There are many people who would prefer to live free of Russian domination and who would sacrifice to do so.

The Ukrainians do not wish to live under the rule of the Russians. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Would you willingly embrace  Russian invaders if they attacked your country, raped your people, looted and indiscriminately targeted non combatants and incinerated children?

 

[Fester]

2 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

no, you did not understand.  

Putin considers NATO an aggressive military bloc, and over the past 20 years NATO has given him a reason to think so - operations not approved by the UN in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.  

And this gives Putin the opportunity to justify pre-emptive strikes against Ukraine.

 

 And you do not understand. Putin and NATO? No comparison.  

Whatever Putin "considers" it cannot justify this murderous invasion of Ukraine.