News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

21 minutes ago, Fester said:

You think all of your 20% had a choice of where they were allowed to "flee" to?

Why would Russia force them? Be realistic here. Better to leave that burden to Ukraine.

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Yes of course. Above Reality is seriously damaging Russia in so many ways.

Ukraine is already physically & economically Wrecked. Zero. Nance Now to join EU or NATO. That third Putin war goal achieved. Never a military or economic threat to Russia, now not even Putin can continue with that deluded assertion.

Russian 2nd goal; hold an occupied pro- Russia east ukraine (which will never be surrendered whilst Russia continues to lose this war) whilst taking the present increasing economic,military & political damage is simply Impossible.
Risk now far outweighs Reward for Russia in real rational terms.

Personally hoping war continues for much longer to necessarily reduce Russia to an economic / military/ political shell, also unable to maintain & operate reliable nuclear weapons.

So a negotiated ceasefire and peace is in both sides best interests? (leaving NATO/US out of this question) 

[EdwardV]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And China is helping and profiting nicely. 

 

Two months after warning that Beijing appeared poised to help Russia in its fight against Ukraine, senior U.S. officials say they have not detected overt Chinese military and economic support, a welcome development in the tense U.S.-China relationship. U.S. officials told Reuters in recent days they remain wary about China's long-standing support for Russia in general, but that the military and economic support that they worried about has not come to pass, at least for now. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-relieved-china-appears-heed-warnings-russia-2022-05-03/

Someone should tell China to step it up. 

[EdwardV]

14 minutes ago, Fanta said:

When/if security  agreements are signed between Ukraine and other countries Russia can expect a united military response from multiple countries against any further Russian aggression.

Kinda like the Budapest memorandum? 

[Fester]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Why would Russia force them? Be realistic here. Better to leave that burden to Ukraine.

More questions are your only answers. 

[Marble-eye]

11 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Why would Russia force them? Be realistic here. Better to leave that burden to Ukraine.

 

 

Hundreds of Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia, say Mariupol women

"Under international human rights law, forced displacement or transfer doesn’t necessarily mean people were forced into a vehicle at gunpoint, but rather that they found themselves in a situation that left them no choice.”

Lokshina pointed to the Geneva convention, under which “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory, are prohibited, regardless of their motive”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/04/hundreds-of-ukrainians-forcibly-deported-to-russia-say-mariupol-women

 

[EdwardV]

52 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Your China comments deny the benefits to China that come from a more dependent Russia.

What are those benefits? 
 

I never said China was dependent on the good will of the west. They are dependent on economic interaction with the west, both and selling and purchasing to a much larger degree than with Russia. Good will is helpful but not necessary 

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Two months after warning that Beijing appeared poised to help Russia in its fight against Ukraine, senior U.S. officials say they have not detected overt Chinese military and economic support, a welcome development in the tense U.S.-China relationship. U.S. officials told Reuters in recent days they remain wary about China's long-standing support for Russia in general, but that the military and economic support that they worried about has not come to pass, at least for now. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-relieved-china-appears-heed-warnings-russia-2022-05-03/

Someone should tell China to step it up. 

We don’t know what Russia and China are doing behind closed doors. China hasn’t closed their banking system to Russia, their imports from Russia have increased, their political voice is ominously quiet while their votes are clearly supportive of Russia. And why would Russia need China’s help militarily?  Russia exports weapons to China. Russia’s military exports have slowed since 2017. Decisions to invade  are not made overnight so I think Russia started stockpiling military stuff a few years ago. The US will push any message aimed at making Russia look more isolated than it already is. Claiming that Russia’s key ally is sitting by idly is just more of the same.

[CamPat]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:38 AM, Fanta said:

Russia has already offered and honored a surrender of 1.126 Ukrainian soldiers at Mariupol as well as 40,000+ civilians and escorted them to safety so that answers your questions. This refusal to admit defeat at Mariupol and save his own people by Zelenskky seems inexplicable and raises many questions by many people. 

If I was a civilian trapped there I would wonder why President Zelenskyy - the leader of the “Servants of the People” party - has numerous times refused Russian ultimatums to surrender at Mariupol and has now left me to die underground with no hope of rescue. If I was a soldier trapped there I would wonder why 1,126 Ukrainians soldiers at Mariupol who recently surrendered, were unharmed as promised by the Russians and treated correctly as per the Geneva Conventions while I am being abandoned by my own leader to die. As a Ukrainian soldier not in Mariupol  I would wonder if I too will one day get the same treatment from my leader. As a Ukrainian civilian not in Mariupol I would wonder about the reasons civilians were and are not being evacuated from Mariupol by the Ukrainian authorities but are being evacuated by the Russians. As a MSM writer I would wonder how I could put any sympathetic spin on the repeated dismissals of ultimatums by Zelenskyy that will save his own civilians and soldiers in Mariupol from inevitable death. As an interested observer I would wonder if there is some actual truth behind Putin’s and others claims that the Azov Regiment are neo Nazis because they will not allow 1,000+ women, children and old men to leave. As a human rights observer I would have to consider the possibility that these civilians are being used as human shields, hostages by the Ukrainian commanders and are being used as sympathy fodder to. As a civilian of a country sending billions of dollars in aid and equipment I would wonder why the Ukrainian president is doing this. As a member of the EU I would wonder exactly who we are letting into our group. Personally I have a lot of questions. Do YOU have any answers? 

I'll second that statement. First Russia declared a red line "before" invading. Joe Biden called it a "non brainer" and somehow managed to get the entire EU to fight the Proxy War for the US. In Mariupol Putin as several other posters here mentioned already offered that the Ukrainans lay down their arms to get out of Mariupol and the Avostal Bunkers. Slensky wouldn't have any of it. My thought is that some US guy twisted his arm to make this statement and thereby deliver his own people on the chopping block. I also agree that Selensky used Civilians as human shields and did for way too long (some claimed to have stayed there for 2 month). This is the dirty side of Warfare. Meanwhile the Warzone Tourist Show lured Celebrities to Kiev for a Photoshoot with Selensky. It can't get any worse.

 

[oldschooler]

50 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Not excusing then at all. Just offering some sort of perspective against the emotional claims by some that all Russian soldiers are looting, raping murderers. All groups of men have rogue elements but the exceptions are never the rule. 

Once again; the Russian Army has had for 500 years a proven SYSTEMIC indiscriminate shelling, terror, rape, murder, pillage culture ( even named “ BLEDSEL”),from the very top, made worse under communist Cheka terror.

Do you deny the more well - known outcomes like Katyn Wood? Or the documented WW2 rape of millions of females ? Or Grozny & Aleppo ?

This  CLEAR Systemic Destruction befits a “ federation” of thieves, brigands, tyrants, murderers & terrorists. 

Such enlightened Russian culture of music, art ballet & literature never reached the 99% masses and is long gone. There was also never any faith in the decency of any Russian Institutions, always geared up for tyranny or destruction.

So cease your tiresome apologist ridiculous talk of “exceptions, rogue elements, all” in this matter.

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Fester said:

More questions are your only answers. 

Recognizing rhetorical questions is clearly not your strong point. Russia doesn’t need the burden of 1+ million refugees. Better for Russia to force them all back into Ukraine so they become Ukraine’s problem. Your belief that this is the biggest hostage taking in history is cute.  HTH

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

So cease your tiresome apologist ridiculous talk of “exceptions, rogue elements, all” in this matter

So all Russian soldiers are looting, raping murderers as well as mindless zombies. Happy? 

[oldschooler]

21 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So a negotiated ceasefire and peace is in both sides best interests? (leaving NATO/US out of this question) 

NO. A Russian Deceit not to withdraw and give time to reinforce / re-supply their shattered forces. Plus Russia can’t be trusted. All Negative benefit to Ukraine whose forces continue to be effective & reinforced. 

[Fanta]

28 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

What are those benefits? 
 

I never said China was dependent on the good will of the west. They are dependent on economic interaction with the west, both and selling and purchasing to a much larger degree than with Russia. Good will is helpful but not necessary 

You first. Why hasn’t China condemned the invasion, agreed with sanctions against Russia, cut Russia off economically and rattled some sharpened chopsticks at them? Surely the bad karma from the West outweighs the benefits of dealing with Russia ??? 

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NO. A Russian Deceit not to withdraw and give time to reinforce / re-supply their shattered forces. Plus Russia can’t be trusted. All Negative benefit to Ukraine whose forces continue to be effective & reinforced. 

Trust is not the issue with adequate security agreements in place. Some light reading for you. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_alliance

[CamPat]

Sorry to interrupt. But this is the very last Celebrity, nobody less that the President of the Swiss (usually neutral but on the Russian Cash Side they just couldn't keep their hands off russian cash) National Assembly

Irene Kaethlin (a bit stormy in Kiev after that long train ride). She came to see some real blood !

 

[oldschooler]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So all Russian soldiers are looting, raping murderers as well as mindless zombies. Happy? 

You use the “ all” word continuously after I have specifically dismissed it in my last sentence. All or None is Irrelevant. It’s the SYSTEM / Culture.

Supplemented by the clear application with atrocities  ( subject to court law as you often insist) called out daily by UK / US Govts. based on their validated intelligence reports ( NOT Ukrainian Govt. sources, we are not simpletons in such matters, as I’m sure your FSB/ SVR masters will tell you ! ). 

You also don’t deny anything in my post (as I specifically invited you to) just petulantly & incorrectly elaborate my clear statements.  

“ mindless zombies” ? They perform as such so might just as well be. They are clearly drone slaves needing their dying General Officers to guide their every reluctant demoralized move. They only appear released from the spell or programming when captured ( or dead). 

[oldschooler]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Trust is not the issue with adequate security agreements in place. Some light reading for you. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_alliance

Interesting skim- read for later detailed review thanks Fanta.
but “ alliances” hardly applicable to subject ceasefires (or surrenders) between enemies like Ukraine & Russia. And yes TRUST underpins all agreements except imposed ones (like Minsk) and is completely absent here.

No Ceasefire should occur until Russia agrees for example a 7 day period to fully withdraw back behind it’s recognized borders. 

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

You also don’t deny anything in my post (as I specifically invited you to) just petulantly & incorrectly elaborate my clear statements.

I respond to your less absurd claims and ignore the fanatical ones. Shame on me?

Your claim of a system/culture implies the majority of the Russian Armed Forces are involved. The extent of alleged war crimes revealed to date simply don’t support that claim. We would be seeing hundreds of thousands of dead non combatants.

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

No Ceasefire should occur until Russia agrees for example a 7 day period to fully withdraw back behind it’s recognized borders. 

And give up their gains to date? That is as realistic as expecting Amber Heard to be a subservient housewife. 

[oldschooler]

Pope should keep the snout of that 2,000 year old criminal pedophile empire OUT of modern politics. Stick to spiritual matters only. I know RC Church can’t help themselves grossly interfering in politics though and always on the side of Every Fascist Tyrant with whom they have always done dirty deals of all kinds.

Utterly Disgraceful Evil Intervention.No pretence of seeking Peace, the normal neutral role of Priests. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by KaptainRob
Quote deleted

[Fanta]

10 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Pope should keep the snout of that 2,000 year old criminal pedophile empire OUT of modern politics. Stick to spiritual matters only. I know RC Church can’t help themselves grossly interfering in politics though and always on the side of Every Fascist Tyrant with whom they have always done dirty deals of all kinds.

Utterly Disgraceful Evil Intervention.No pretence of seeking Peace, the normal neutral role of Priests. 

The MSM was trumpeting that a trip to Ukraine for the Pope was possible because the Pope had said it wasn’t off the table. I think he just cleared the table.

ps: nasty little innuendo job on the Pope in that article. 1.2 billion Catholics will not be amused. 

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

I respond to your less absurd claims and ignore the fanatical ones. Shame on me?

Your claim of a system/culture implies the majority of the Russian Armed Forces are involved. The extent of alleged war crimes revealed to date simply don’t support that claim. We would be seeing hundreds of thousands of dead non combatants.

And give up their gains to date? That is as realistic as expecting Amber Heard to be a subservient housewife. 

The system in place is clearly demonstrated by the atrocities AND that no Russian Soldier takes any known action to stop or protest or report either the atrocities OR the system. 
That implies ALL of them ARE Engagaging so Complicit.  Turning A Blind Eye to BOTH the System & Function is lawfully complicit in the Crimes but not of course to the extent of the relative few actually directly performing war crimes.
 

Ceasefire is indeed necessarily Not Realistic for all the reasons you and I and others have covered. Yet you keep pushing this “ dead horse”!

Clearly any & all “diplomacy” here is completely Fake and conducted for Other Purposes like (reverse) Intelligence Gathering or Political PR Show.

The Stalinist Gargoyle FM Lavrov openly admitted that Zelensky was a good Showman very good at “pretending to Negotiate”. Unlike Putin who is blatantly insincere and being cleverly mirrored / mocked by the excellent Ukranian President A former (and continuing) professional showman of course !

[Fanta]

1 minute ago, oldschooler said:

The system in place is clearly demonstrated by the atrocities AND that no Russian Soldier takes any known action to stop or protest or report either the atrocities OR the system. 
That implies ALL of them ARE Engagaging so Complicit.  Turning A Blind Eye to BOTH the System & Function is lawfully complicit in the Crimes but not of course to the extent of the relative few actually directly performing war crimes.

 

We don’t know anything about Russian or Ukrainian systems for reporting/not reporting mistreatment of POWs/non combatants. And they would be dealt with by the military not the court of public opinion. Anything else is specilation.

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Ceasefire is indeed necessarily Not Realistic for all the reasons you and I and others have covered. Yet you keep pushing this “ dead horse”!

My bad? I want the fighting to stop. I am not a believer in the “Kill ‘em all. Let God sort ‘em out” crowd nor the “Fight to the death” crowd. Label me as you will. 

[oldschooler]

20 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The MSM was trumpeting that a trip to Ukraine for the Pope was possible because the Pope had said it wasn’t off the table. I think he just cleared the table.

ps: nasty little innuendo job on the Pope in that article. 1.2 billion Catholics will not be amused. 

Good ! More Slaves that need to find Enlightenment like Muslims.
How anybody with a shred of decency or rational capability can continue to worship their imaginary ruler within this SYSTEMICALLY evil child fiddling cult / financial business, is quite beyond my understanding and earns my absolute contempt.

The proven self- confessed sins against Humanity of this RC Cult exceed the combined evil of Attila Genghis Napoleon Hitler Mao Stalin  

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Recognizing rhetorical questions is clearly not your strong point. Russia doesn’t need the burden of 1+ million refugees. Better for Russia to force them all back into Ukraine so they become Ukraine’s problem. Your belief that this is the biggest hostage taking in history is cute.  HTH

And your belief that you actually know what you are talking about is hilarious. UTV.