News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Thaidup]

12 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

That those weapons are being efficiently used to kill invading murdering raping Russian scum, to destroy their war machinery, and to drive the rest OUT is ALL that presently matters. Wouldn’t go proposing your audit schemes to any field commanders either.

May be a sad day and I will have feelings for you if ever those weapons are used against us, regardless of the war mongering, I pray for an end to it all, just talk and stop the who's got the biggest dick crap.

[EdwardV]

12 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Seriously? you get it dont you? we are being led on a media driven war path again, can't you remember the "weapons of mass destruction"  speach at the Un by, the US

You mean those pictures of Russian tanks and murdered Ukrainians are not real? 

I get it, really I do. The last thing we need is another Iraq, but this hardly seems to fit the bill. It's pretty clear Russia is the bad guy, and they did attack Ukraine. Is it you think Russia was provoked enough to justify their murderous rampage? That NATO has somehow created a false narrative and things are not nearly as bad as we see in the news? Or is it just a general pacifist take? 

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

May be a sad day and I will have feelings for you if ever those weapons are used against us, regardless of the war mongering, I pray for an end to it all, just talk and stop the who's got the biggest dick crap.

You seem to have lost the plot somewhere ………focusing on future or other weapons use ….surely a trivial off -reservation concern right now. 

[Fester]

29 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Seriously? you get it dont you? we are being led on a media driven war path again, can't you remember the "weapons of mass destruction"  speach at the Un by, the US . > here.

This was 2003. Hope you are feeling sleepy. 

[EdwardV]

22 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

for an end to it all, just talk and stop the who's got the biggest dick crap

What happens if one side has no interest in talking? 

Russian President Vladimir Putin is no longer interested in negotiating with Ukraine and just wants to seize as much territory as possible, the Financial Times reported.

 

In a phone call on Friday, Putin apparently told European Council President Charles Michel that it was "not the right time," a person briefed on that conversation told the FT. "He wants everything to be decided before their personal meeting," they said.

Putin is no longer interested in negotiating with Ukraine and just wants to seize as much territory as possible instead, report says (yahoo.com)

 

 

[Thaidup]

Regardless, of what some may think, I will still hope for a peaceful end, Talking may help.

[Thaidup]

47 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Seriously? you get it dont you? we are being led on a media driven war path again, can't you remember the "weapons of mass destruction"  speach at the Un by, the US . > here.

And then they found it or did they, remember all of this information was guaranteed by the government and the media. we all believed it, be it 20 -30 years ago, The old saying of fool me once shame on you.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fool+me+once

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

What happens if one side has no interest in talking? 

Russian President Vladimir Putin is no longer interested in negotiating with Ukraine and just wants to seize as much territory as possible, the Financial Times reported.

In a phone call on Friday, Putin apparently told European Council President Charles Michel that it was "not the right time," a person briefed on that conversation told the FT. "He wants everything to be decided before their personal meeting," they said.

Putin is no longer interested in negotiating with Ukraine and just wants to seize as much territory as possible instead, report says (yahoo.com)

This was always the case. Clue: WHEN has any invader in history started “ peace talks” seriously, six weeks later ? That would be NEVER.

Also WHEN did anyone rational really start believing ANYTHING coming from Russia since , well, EVER . Answer again should be NEVER. 

ONLY Russia’s ACTIONS ever matter. They cannot be bargained with on matters of national security ,after this invasion, only reduced by force. 

[Thaidup]

This discussion will make a good throwback to what peoples thoughts are at a time, in 10 -20 years.

[NorskTiger]

21 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You quoted me, but you didn’t answer the question. How is NATO being aggressive? Please don’t tell me about Kosovo or Libya, that’s ancient history. We are talking about Ukraine, how are they being aggressive in connection to Ukraine? 

Kosovo and Libya is "ancient" history??? What??

   The most prosperous state of Africa, where they intended to implement a Gold-based Dinar and whoose leadership was heavily invested in OAS-development. 

    A state who now ave turned to an anarchic slave state from which used to be a nation with good living standard?

    "ancient"? 

    NATO bombing of Serbia, which led to massive destuction of infrastructure and did more damage than the Luftwaffe managed. 

   NATO's dirty tricks in Syria, partially ongoing?

   The political wing og NATO, repesented by US state dept Victoria Nudelmann being behind the "color revolution" in KIev started the entire thing rolling. 

    The statement was that NATO is an offensive entity; a warmonger heaven and one of the most heavily lobbied and most heavily connected people to the MIC in USA. 

    NATO is a DIRE threat to world stability AND peace. However, it will struggle to keep up as the US econmy is fully based on credit and Uber-leveraged debt.  

   NATO HAS TO win a war and a major one, or the entire economic apparatus will collapse in  a manner the Soviet Union never could. 

[NorskTiger]

3 hours ago, oldschooler said:

NO. That would risk WW3 ….. direct conflict with a nuclear armed nation. 
Ukraine also will NEVER qualify for NATO…. You have one reason… there are many others. 

     The conflict between NATO (by Ukraine proxy) and Russia  will ensuremno membership.

      AND, if the conflict ends in favor of Russia, the outcome is the same as above. 

 

   NOW, if the West is not giving in here, this conflict will go on and on and on until nobody even remembers what is started for. And when that happens someone will probably remember how all this started.....

 

    a few months before the "color revolution", the first coup- d'etat in Europe in a looong time.  

[NorskTiger]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:42 PM, Rookiescot said:

The dollar is in a far better position than the Ruble.

It is??

   By what measure?  Please enlighten us..

[NorskTiger]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

This was always the case. Clue: WHEN has any invader in history started “ peace talks” seriously, six weeks later ? That would be NEVER.

Also WHEN did anyone rational really start believing ANYTHING coming from Russia since , well, EVER . Answer again should be NEVER. 

ONLY Russia’s ACTIONS ever matter. They cannot be bargained with on matters of national security ,after this invasion, only reduced by force. 

     So your argument is "Sieg oder Untergang". It is black or red chips. Everything in-between is useless and anyone who believes that in any sense are irrational? 

   Your Quote: "WHEN did anyone rational really start believing ANYTHING coming from Russia since , well, EVER" .

    I am glad the majority of the world's nations are not buying your sales pitch. I think even Zelensky would prefer a "humilliating peace" instead of nuclear armageddon. Because what you are suggesting implies you prefer the latter. I may be wrong about this of course, but that is what I am left believing. 

[NorskTiger]

52 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

This discussion will make a good throwback to what peoples thoughts are at a time, in 10 -20 years.

    I hope there will be internet around in 10-20 years. By reading some of the posters here, I am not 100% sure. 

[EdwardV]

13 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

It is??

   By what measure?  Please enlighten us..

Because the dollar isn't tied to an economy in free fall, because the dollar doesn't need capital controls to keep in from free fall, because the dollar is convertible world wide while the Ruble ... well you get the point. 

[EdwardV]

30 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

The statement was that NATO is an offensive entity; a warmonger heaven and one of the most heavily lobbied and most heavily connected people to the MIC in USA. 

That's your proof? One opinion statement backed up by no rational explanation. This in comparison to Russia who is literally on a murdering, raping, pillaging, destruction filled free for all as we speak. 

 

[NorskTiger]

1 minute ago, EdwardV said:

Because the dollar isn't tied to an economy in free fall, because the dollar doesn't need capital controls to keep in from free fall, because the dollar is convertible world wide while the Ruble ... well you get the point. 

            Very good and  specific reasons. Although are they correct? 

     Russian ruble is not moved much from initial standing before conflict started. The Russian economy and domestic consumption continues to alter towards other markets.  Ruble-Yuan-Ruphi conversions are now a matter of fact.  I don't know where you get "free fall" from. 

   The dollar continues to be declining as reserve currency. The entire Middle East and even the once so reliable Saudi-Arabia seems to read the tea leeves and are uncommitted to a future of exclusive dollar transactions,. 

  

    De-dollarization is heading towards less than 50% of world market share. The EU is unlikely to be willing to finance more US consumption, militarism and US welfare; when it's own people is being strangled by high energy prices and inflation. 

  Japan is also unlikely to absorb a ton of more FIAT without it's own economy going under. Asia is China's to lose at this time and Afrika is uncertain, but definitely not united for the "mighty dollar". 

       I get your arguments, but I believe you are severely ininformed about what is going on. 

       BRICS alone.....

   tick 

 tick 

 tick

 

   

[NorskTiger]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That's your proof? One opinion statement backed up by no rational explanation. This in comparison to Russia who is literally on a murdering, raping, pillaging, destruction filled free for all as we speak. 

  YOU ar saying it is not "rational" and yoru opinion is very clouded indeed. One need only to look at your hyperbolic ranting about Russia where you throw in all the usual accusations again. Do you people never learn to understand that ALLEGATIONS ARE NOT EVIDENCE?

         I think your accusations about "no rational explanation" is very influenced by your own projections. Are you interested ina discusson or merely flaming up the entire forum? Please behave a bit...

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Russian ruble is not moved much from initial standing before conflict started. The Russian economy and domestic consumption continues to alter towards other markets.  Ruble-Yuan-Ruphi conversions are now a matter of fact.  I don't know where you get "free fall" from. 

Meaningless since Russia has capital controls in effect. You can't sell Rubles, and total value traded per day is almost zero. With no one selling, Russia has to spend little foreign reserves to buy Rubles to raise their value to whatever level they wish. Fact is there is no way to know what the value of the Ruble is until the capital controls are removed.  

The Ruble-Yuan-Rupee swaps are the same, meaningless. Currency swaps are just a postponement of the inevitable. At some point the currency has to be swapped back and you are in the same spot you were before, just a little later. These are economic deals done for political reasons. Neither China nor India really want Rubles since they can't use them. Heck China doesn't even want it's Yuan back, but that's a different matter. 

Free fall, I get that from the Russian central bank governor (you know the person Putin has personally put in charge of keeping the country afloat): 

 

 

In revealing testimony before the Duma parliament, the head of the Central Bank of Russia (CBR) told the country’s lawmakers she had to throw everything but the kitchen sink just to prevent a full-blown run on the banking system. “The sanctions imposed against Russia affected the situation in the financial sector, spurred the demand for foreign currencies, and caused fire sales of financial assets, a cash outflow from banks, and surging demand for goods,” said Elvira Nabiullina in prepared remarks first published in English on Friday. The frank assessment of Russia’s economic problems contrasts sharply with political attacks launched against the current U.S. administration for a sanctions policy that failed to force Vladimir Putin to the negotiating table. Presenting the CBR’s annual report to parliament this week, Nabiullina painted a picture to lawmakers of just how grim the situation was that confronted her. Depositors withdrew 2.4 trillion rubles in the first weeks after the war broke out, eating up a year’s worth of bank profits and a third of its accumulated capital cushion. Without the imposition of strict capital controls, there would have been “a series of defaults and a domino effect” throughout the financial system, she argued.

Russian official admits sanctions are crippling the economy as the country grapples with a selloff and mass shortages (yahoo.com)

 

 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

I don't know where you get "free fall" from

Here is another one, I think you will like it better: 

The Russian economy has made it through the first blow caused by the sanctions imposed by the war in Ukraine, according to the president of the Russian Central Bank, Elvira Nabiullina. But she warned representatives at the Duma this Monday that the country’s reserves are near their end, and the real crisis will hit between the second and third quarter this year. Hours after Nabiullina sounded the alert, Vladimir Putin himself rejected her warning. “Russia has resisted unprecedented pressure. The situation is stabilizing,” the head of state said in a press conference about the country’s economic situation.

Russia’s central bank says that the economy will plummet in the second quarter and Putin is ignoring the warning | Economy and Business | EL PAÍS English Edition (elpais.com)

Of course Putin did his head in the sand impression. 

[Fanta]

5 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Just a couple of reminders, of how libertarians used to feel, If you want full on war with Russia, That is your prerogative, But While we sit in our loungeroom and debate the the pro's and con's of the issue, people are being blown apart.

If you want the vast majority of the Australian public to label you a f*ckwit or enjoy a smack in the mouth from random strangers while out shopping with the family then simply scale  the Opera House and deface it. Some people just go too far.

[Alavan]

2 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Kosovo and Libya is "ancient" history??? What??

Kosovo was attacked by Serbia, just like Bosnia, It was not NATO but UN forces, including Russians, who intervened. Those forces couldn’t even prevent Srebrenica. 
Please put the blame where it lies, not by countries trying to prevent further bloodshed.

[Alavan]

2 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Russian ruble is not moved much from initial standing before conflict started. The Russian economy and domestic consumption continues to alter towards other markets

If you can exchange ruble against Dollars or euro in Russia, yes.

Try doing that outside the Russian supporting sfere. 

[Fanta]

I have been puzzled as to why the Ukrainians trapped in the steelworks in Mariupol won’t surrender. It seemed inexplicable as I was only reading MSM stuff.  The Russian TASS site has a very different take on any foreign volunteers and their possible fate.

“From 1,000 to 2,500 Ukrainian nationalists and about 400 foreign mercenaries are holed up in the Azovstal steel complex in Mariupol, Head of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) Denis Pushilin said on Monday.”

”They have several options: to exit with a white flag and then a court will take a decision considering the war crimes that they committed or they will die at Azovstal. There are no other variants," the DPR head explained”

https://tass.com/defense/1442621 

This doesn’t explain why the non-combatants are not being released.

[EdwardV]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

”They have several options: to exit with a white flag and then a court will take a decision considering the war crimes that they committed or they will die at Azovstal. There are no other variants," the DPR head explained”

Besides the question of knowing how many "foreign mercenaries" there are, and what exactly is one per the Russian definition would be interesting to know. Keep in mind Mariupol was taken in first day or two of the war. I find it hard to believe many foreigners could get there in time. It's why I ask what Russia's definition of the term might be. 

Clearly the quote above explains why they are not surrendering. To place yourself at the mercy of a Russian court as a prisoner of war, well it's probably better to go out with your boots on.