News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[EdwardV]

You can’t make this stuff up:

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu is accusing the United States and other Western countries Tuesday of trying to "delay" the course of the war in Ukraine by sending shipments of weapons to Kyiv’s military.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-accuses-us-west-of-stalling-ukraine-war-by-sending-weapons.amp

How twisted does your sense of entitlement have to be where you think it’s Russia’s right to attack a sovereign country and murder its citizens. 

[Politenessman]

16 hours ago, Fanta said:

That Belarus is backing away from Russia seems doubtful. Any links?

Russia is Belarus #1 trading partner and they seemed to have been joined at the hip since at least 1994 and ruled by “like minded”“presidents”. Russian bases. troops, radar etc are stationed in Belarus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus–Russia_relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Belarus

You are quoting Wikipedia as a reference? seriously?

US and NATO intel sources were quoted  a month ago - "it is increasingly "likely" that Belarus will enter the conflict, a NATO military official said on Monday. "(Russian President Vladimir) Putin needs support. Anything would help," the official explained.

A Belarusian opposition source said that Belarusian combat units are ready to go into Ukraine as soon as in the next few days, with thousands of forces prepared to deploy."

 

---------------

 

and now, a month later - where are they? they didn't turn up at all, let alone in time to support the push on Kyiv, leaving Russian troops so exposed that they abandoned their heavy equipment and ran.

Belarus has noted which way the wind is blowing and are not keen on sticking their playground equipment into the same blender that the Russians have.

 

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

You can’t make this stuff up:

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu is accusing the United States and other Western countries Tuesday of trying to "delay" the course of the war in Ukraine by sending shipments of weapons to Kyiv’s military.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-accuses-us-west-of-stalling-ukraine-war-by-sending-weapons.amp

How twisted does your sense of entitlement have to be where you think it’s Russia’s right to attack a sovereign country and murder its citizens. 

Or maybe he is saying “Ukraine is going to lose, sooner or later, so stop dragging this out, just let it happen and think of a happy place.” ?? 

It is safe to assume that the Russian Defence Minister has a better idea of how the war is really going than your typical Westerner does. Or perhaps Russia really is getting hammered, despite a lack of triumphant headlines and evidence to prove that, and he’s crying “not fair!”

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

US and NATO intel sources were quoted  a month ago -

You are quoting US and NATO sources as a reference about Belarus’ commitment?  Seriously? 
and you dismiss the Wikipedia articles that clearly show that Russia and Belarus are as thick as thieves. Seriously?  I have grave doubts that Belarus won’t be led by the same leash that Russia has had tied around it’s neck for 25 years. Old habits die hard and lapdogs rarely bite the hand that feeds them. 

[Politenessman]

7 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

In the next days, Azovstal will be further shrink-wrapped and waited out. The remaining of Mariupol is being secured and full logistics are likely to utilize this city soon. 

     Donbass is now being encircled by Russia on all sides. The Westernmost forces are arranged in defensive mode and Ukraine units will suffer massive attrition day by day. 

     The initiative remains in the hands of Russia and the domestic support is now as high as it has been at any time. It is reported on Russian media and independent bloggers that Russian men and women are volunteering to sign up for second-line duties of all kinds. 

     It will be interesting to see if Ukraine high command elects to target areas behind the Russian frontline at increasing intensity. Because they are unlikely to avoid further territoreal losses unless they dare a few select counters. However, for every day of Russian consolidation, the nimble potential of Ukraine armored countermoves become less and less. 

This sounds remarkably like a late 1944 German military press release.

[Politenessman]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You are quoting US and NATO sources as a reference about Belarus’ commitment?  Seriously? 
and you dismiss the Wikipedia articles that clearly show that Russia and Belarus are as thick as thieves. Seriously?  I have grave doubts that Belarus won’t be led by the same leash that Russia has had tied around it’s neck for 25 years. Old habits die hard and lapdogs rarely bite the hand that feeds them. 

I don't care what wikipedia says, NATO intelligence has a far better idea of what is going on than they do.

and a quick bit of history, Italy and Germany were thick as thieves right up until it became apparent that Germany was not able to achieve their objectives. then Italy backed away from the alliance fast and hard.

Russias objective to take Ukraine is dead (and hence any carve out for Belarus went with it), the battle for Kyiv showed the world that - what is in it for Belarus to support Russia now, even if Russia gets some of its southern objectives?

[Politenessman]

14 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Or maybe he is saying “Ukraine is going to lose, sooner or later, so stop dragging this out, just let it happen and think of a happy place.” ?? 

It is safe to assume that the Russian Defence Minister has a better idea of how the war is really going than your typical Westerner does. Or perhaps Russia really is getting hammered, despite a lack of triumphant headlines and evidence to prove that, and he’s crying “not fair!”

Wow. the guy who presided over the fiasco of the move on Kyiv, whose military is so inept that they lost their flagship to a shore battery, who lack most of the basics of a modern military force and sent unmotivated conscripts into the front line without adequate air defence assets, is to be considered a well informed expert on the military situation?

Don't be surprised if he asks for political asylum.

[Fanta]

52 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Cracks are starting too appear. 

Russian tycoon Oleg Tinkov denounces ‘insane war’ in Ukraine | Ukraine | The Guardian

Particularly enjoyed this line.

“90 percent of Russians ARE against this war!” Tinkov said. “Of course there are morons who draw Z but 10 percent of any country are morons,” he said, referring to what has become a Russian symbol of support for the war.

I wonder where he is know? He was in London fighting extradition to the US. I bet that guy isn’t anywhere near Russia and has no plans to go there ever again until a regime change occurs. He must be salty that he is targeted by sanctions and also under fire by the US.
“Oleg Tinkov settled tax claims on the premise of paying at least 506,8 million dollars, including 248,5 million dollars of unpaid taxes, without going to jail, according to US Department of Justice.”

Or perhaps his recent chemo has side effects because those Twitter rants are suicidal. Russia will say his account was hacked or he was coerced. Same bullsh*t, different day. 

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

don't care what wikipedia says, NATO intelligence has a far better idea of what is going on than they do.

I often quote Wikipedia as it is one of the few websites that doesn’t draw howls of derision from the peanut gallery crew with the MSM munchies. You are the first. NATO? the same NATO that is supplying weapons and aid to Ukraine? That NATO? You believe NATO claims about Russia’s groomed and manicured pet president resisting Putin. OK. 

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Politenessman said:

Don't be surprised if he asks for political asylum

Unlikely but if he does Syria will welcome him with open arms ;-)

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I wonder where he is know? He was in London fighting extradition to the US. I bet that guy isn’t anywhere near Russia and has no plans to go there ever again until a regime change occurs. He must be salty that he is targeted by sanctions and also under fire by the US.
“Oleg Tinkov settled tax claims on the premise of paying at least 506,8 million dollars, including 248,5 million dollars of unpaid taxes, without going to jail, according to US Department of Justice.”

Or perhaps his recent chemo has side effects because those Twitter rants are suicidal. Russia will say his account was hacked or he was coerced. Same bullsh*t, different day. 

Attack the messenger not the message eh?

[Fanta]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Attack the messenger not the message eh?

Questioning the motivations behind his message is more like it. Discussing his claims is pointless without any proof to support or refute them. Good luck getting that out of Russia. 

[EdwardV]

50 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Or perhaps Russia really is getting hammered, despite a lack of triumphant headlines and evidence to prove that, and he’s crying “not fair!”

More likely he’s saying: “if this takes any longer I’m going to end up with a 9mm headache”.

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Questioning the motivations behind his message is more like it. Discussing his claims is pointless without any proof to support or refute them. Good luck getting that out of Russia. 

But we are to accept the motivations behind the Russian Defense Minister?

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But we are to accept the motivations behind the Russian Defense Minister?

I guessed at 2 possible motivations behind his statement. Do you need a second to judge against your first or are you content with just the one? 

[Rookiescot]

31 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I guessed at 2 possible motivations behind his statement. Do you need a second to judge against your first or are you content with just the one? 

No you gave comment ON what he said not his motivation behind making them.

However you did the complete opposite with Oleg Tinkov. You ignored what he said and simply questioned why he is saying it. Hence my comment about you attacking the messenger not the message.

[NorskTiger]

FWIW, 3000+ kilometer from Donetsk (Nikel and Petsamo/Pechenga) One can see the Z signs everywhere. Russian people one speaks with are angry with the Western schemers, but understand that we (Norwegians) for the most are mere pawn in this game who have to put up. Everybody thinks the relationship will be picking up once this thing is over. 

  Our neighbors are still crossing the border to shop in Norway and we are still crossing the border to go there and buy stuff, visit friends and travel. 

      Russians are not bothering anyone with asking for opinions, but go quietly their own ways, but remaining the same good people. 

     A few days ago, we were sitting and having some vodka and watching the Easter sunset. None of us were talking war, not even after the first bottle had gone..

 

     

[vlad]

Russia calling, Russia calling, we will be visiting a Mariupol factory and doing some basic cleaning duties here ends this message. Sound Familiar Fanta. 

[NorskTiger]

8 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I guess that’s one way to look at it. Russia commits a blatant act of unprovoked aggression and it’s the west’s fault. It’s always the west’s fault like a broken record. How quickly we forget Putin statement before attacking that he had no intention of doing so. It was just military maneuvers. Don’t worry, the Ukrainians know exactly who to blame. 

Actually it started back in 2008, and it’s never been a proxy war for Russia. It’s been a hot one ever since. It was Russian troops that fought in Georgia, in Crimea and yes even in Donbas. It’s clearly become a proxy war for the West, but even that’s not their fault. When Putin threatens nuclear war if the west actively participates, they have little choice but to go proxy. See it’s Russia’s fault once again hahaha

How convenient of the West to let Ukraineans give the blood and they giving the weapons. How convenient of the West to let two slavic nations go at each other. 

  When it comes to nuclear weapons, we know which nation has a history of such use.  Putins talk about escalation can only be properly understood in the right context WHEN properly translated. Of course, 99.99% of the Western sheep will not bother to even try understanding this. 

    It is kind of like Iran saying "Israel has to be destroyed" by transating from Farsi to English done by some other "experts". 

    Having said all the above, if what you are saying represents the true intent of the West, this will only go one way and that is grinding down the last Ukrainean resistance, taking time and battle-hardening it's army in the process. 

      Again, this conflict NEEDS to end and anyone who really thinks there is no room to negotiate escept Russia giving in, is not paying attention.  

[vlad]

1 hour ago, Politenessman said:

Wow. the guy who presided over the fiasco of the move on Kyiv, whose military is so inept that they lost their flagship to a shore battery, who lack most of the basics of a modern military force and sent unmotivated conscripts into the front line without adequate air defence assets, is to be considered a well informed expert on the military situation?

Don't be surprised if he asks for political asylum.

Also was stupid enough to use mobile phones on the frontline because their field communications failed, discovering their location for a Drone attack.

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

Russia has already offered and honored a surrender of 1.126 Ukrainian soldiers at Mariupol as well as 40,000+ civilians and escorted them to safety so that answers your questions. This refusal to admit defeat at Mariupol and save his own people by Zelenskky seems inexplicable and raises many questions by many people. 

If I was a civilian trapped there I would wonder why President Zelenskyy - the leader of the “Servants of the People” party - has numerous times refused Russian ultimatums to surrender at Mariupol and has now left me to die underground with no hope of rescue. If I was a soldier trapped there I would wonder why 1,126 Ukrainians soldiers at Mariupol who recently surrendered, were unharmed as promised by the Russians and treated correctly as per the Geneva Conventions while I am being abandoned by my own leader to die. As a Ukrainian soldier not in Mariupol  I would wonder if I too will one day get the same treatment from my leader. As a Ukrainian civilian not in Mariupol I would wonder about the reasons civilians were and are not being evacuated from Mariupol by the Ukrainian authorities but are being evacuated by the Russians. As a MSM writer I would wonder how I could put any sympathetic spin on the repeated dismissals of ultimatums by Zelenskyy that will save his own civilians and soldiers in Mariupol from inevitable death. As an interested observer I would wonder if there is some actual truth behind Putin’s and others claims that the Azov Regiment are neo Nazis because they will not allow 1,000+ women, children and old men to leave. As a human rights observer I would have to consider the possibility that these civilians are being used as human shields, hostages by the Ukrainian commanders and are being used as sympathy fodder to. As a civilian of a country sending billions of dollars in aid and equipment I would wonder why the Ukrainian president is doing this. As a member of the EU I would wonder exactly who we are letting into our group. Personally I have a lot of questions. Do YOU have any answers? 

Situation politically, legally, humanely Highly Complex.

Zelensky has either issued a No Surrender order (unlikely;  like Hitler did) for political purposes which can be legally disregarded under these circumstances by ground commanders OR he has wisely delegated that decision to his military there.

Azov Brigade should now probably be disbanded as rogue unit liability if found preventing ordered evacuation of civilians or troop surrenders.

[Rookiescot]

13 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

FWIW, 3000+ kilometer from Donetsk (Nikel and Petsamo/Pechenga) One can see the Z signs everywhere. Russian people one speaks with are angry with the Western schemers, but understand that we (Norwegians) for the most are mere pawn in this game who have to put up. Everybody thinks the relationship will be picking up once this thing is over. 

  Our neighbors are still crossing the border to shop in Norway and we are still crossing the border to go there and buy stuff, visit friends and travel. 

      Russians are not bothering anyone with asking for opinions, but go quietly their own ways, but remaining the same good people. 

     A few days ago, we were sitting and having some vodka and watching the Easter sunset. None of us were talking war, not even after the first bottle had gone..

Yeah right.

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

No you gave comment ON what he said not his motivation behind making them.

However you did the complete opposite with Oleg Tinkov. You ignored what he said and simply questioned why he is saying it. Hence my comment about you attacking the messenger not the message.

OK. You win. I have been out grammar policed but I refuse to be transferred to an inactive post. I gave 2 possible interpretations on what the Russian Defence Minister was really saying. Is that agreed?

The question of his motivations was never raised to me. The motivations of the Russian Defence Minister could be numerous and as twisted as a spy plot set in the Kremlin. He fears nuclear war. He fears losing. He feels Russia is oppressed. He fears Putin’s wrath. He is frustrated with NATO. You should love those first five. He feels bad for the senseless slaughter. He has a Ukrainian mistress.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fanta said:

OK. You win. I have been out grammar policed but I refuse to be transferred to an inactive post. I gave 2 possible interpretations on what the Russian Defence Minister was really saying. Is that agreed?

The question of his motivations was never raised to me. The motivations of the Russian Defence Minister could be numerous and as twisted as a spy plot set in the Kremlin. He fears nuclear war. He fears losing. He feels Russia is oppressed. He fears Putin’s wrath. He is frustrated with NATO. You should love those first five. He feels bad for the senseless slaughter. He has a Ukrainian mistress.

You continue to try to deflect.

I asked why you decided to attack the messenger rather than comment on the actual message.

Perhaps you might wish to take the opportunity to do so now?

[vlad]

Let's be honest Tinkov should keep his head down or he might get a spoonful of Novichoc in his Coffee.