News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[NorskTiger]

15 hours ago, EdwardV said:

True but the alternative for the Ukrainians is to live under Russian rule. They did that once before and didn’t like it. 
 

Didn’t Putin say last week there would be no more negotiations? That’s beside the point there was no reason to believe Russia was serious. 

Negotiations are always a fluid component. There is never a time for them until it is. 

  Time will tell if Ukraine will fight to the last man, while NATO provides the arms and financing.  

   

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, NorskTiger said:

Negotiations are always a fluid component. There is never a time for them until it is. 

  Time will tell if Ukraine will fight to the last man, while NATO provides the arms and financing.  

And Czar Putin and his Russian thugs provide the death and destruction.

[Fanta]

Back onto the topic, apparently the remaining Ukrainian troops in surrounded Mariupol have gone underground in the steelworks, with 1,000 civilians, and are getting hit with anti bunker bombs. Jesus! War is ugly, people die, all is fair in love and war etc etc but, at this stage, it looks hopeless and a pointless gesture to not surrender Mariupol that will lead to an unnecessary slaughter. If Zelenskyy needs to leave his own soldiers and citizens trapped to die underground so as to strengthen Ukrainian & international resolve against Russia then something is very wrong. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and at least the civilians will be allowed to surrender. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-19/what-we-know-about-the-azovstal-steelworks-siege/100998694

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

while NATO provides the arms and financing.  

You say that like it’s a bad thing. I get Putin isn’t a fan and why he’s issued a hollow threat over it. Not much he can do unless he attacks inside Poland. From the western point of view, it only makes sense to help Ukraine. From the Ukrainian view they only want more, seems like a win win if you ask me. 

[NorskTiger]

The civillians in the Azovstal factory are said to be ALL Russian-Ukrainean or at least Russian-speaking Ukraineans. Interviews in Russian have people stating the remaining civillians are mere hostages. Again, accusations, but why would civillians board up with the Azovites? This is not explainable at the moment. 

     The reality is that NATO is providing ALL new ordinance, ammunition and supplies to the Ukrainean military. Foreign-speaking POV's have now been interviewed, taped and this is released on Bitchute. They identify themselves by name and location. Russia claims they have identifiable Western agents/special ops people who are also captured. Again, we will see, but these are the claims. There is no laws protecting them as combatants, but Russia has at least not shot them out of hand. 

    In many ways, this is a unique conflict. It has elements of a civil war, conventional war and the skeleton of a proxy conflict from one side. What started in 2014 as an insurgency, has converted into a full-fledged classic war, but I believe the proxy-elements from the West has been there from day one. 

    The notion that Ukraineans "only want more arms" is a statement that cannot be verified. Granted, this is state of war, so normal assessment cannot be done. All we have is media claims. What we DO know is that several civillians in Mariupol, who claims Ukrainean heritage and citizenship do NOT want this war to go on. They are indifferent to whoever controls that area.  So it appears the West has no interest in actually finding out the real wills of civillians and are totally willing to fund this conflict further on. I think it is quite obvious that a total victory (from Russian side) will end up with a deNATOFIED area and the big bulk of the civillians will be pro-Russians even more than before. 

     So we have a conflict where the updated frontlines shows the military reality, while the information reality is destroyed as always. 

     Except for men dying, NATO is DEEP into this conflict with all they have. It is, in many ways, just as existential for this organization as it is for Russian sovereignty (from a geopolitical pov). 

       Again, we need peace negotiations and one should not conclude anything about the aftermath of that besides the risk of nuclear conflict is significantly lessened. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by NorskTiger

[vlad]

4 hours ago, Poolie said:

And you got that fact from.......?

Search for yourself.

[vlad]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Vladimir! I am shocked! You don’t trust the Pentagon or you don’t care what they say? You must swallow all of your MSM meal, even the bits you don’t like.
Your baiting question? I don’t know. Go ask the Russians or the Ukrainians how the cities are being bombed and why. I doubt you will get a straight answer out of either of them but it can’t hurt to try. Or can it? 

Deflect as usual.

[Poolie]

1 minute ago, vlad said:

Search for yourself.

Another way of saying 'I plucked it from the air.'

A good plan actually as my next question was going to be 'what about his powder guy. '

[vlad]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Back onto the topic, apparently the remaining Ukrainian troops in surrounded Mariupol have gone underground in the steelworks, with 1,000 civilians, and are getting hit with anti bunker bombs. Jesus! War is ugly, people die, all is fair in love and war etc etc but, at this stage, it looks hopeless and a pointless gesture to not surrender Mariupol that will lead to an unnecessary slaughter. If Zelenskyy needs to leave his own soldiers and citizens trapped to die underground so as to strengthen Ukrainian & international resolve against Russia then something is very wrong. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and at least the civilians will be allowed to surrender. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-19/what-we-know-about-the-azovstal-steelworks-siege/100998694

Is this why Civilians cannot leave Haw Haw because Russia keeps closing the corridors and killing them when they do try and leave. There not leave because they're frightened to leave. Where would they travel to? All Ukraine is now being targeted. Would you stick your head out of the Trench if incoming bullets are flying towards you course you wouldn't?

[vlad]

34 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Another way of saying 'I plucked it from the air.'

A good plan actually as my next question was going to be 'what about his powder guy. '

Your boring Seagull.

[Poolie]

2 minutes ago, vlad said:

Your boring Seagull.

Is that it? So I was right? As well as swift, sleek etc etc..

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

Foreign-speaking POV's have now been interviewed

I guess you mean POW's?
Yes some foreigners are fighting on the Ukranian side. But what about Wagner, Chechens and even a French guy fighting on the Russian side. Pot and Kettle.

[EdwardV]

59 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Interviews in Russian have people stating the remaining civillians are mere hostages. Again, accusations, but why would civillians board up with the Azovites? This is not explainable at the moment. 

Interviews with who? If you interview a Ukrainian in Russia what else do you expect them to say? They are the hostages. As to those civilians in the steelworks, they are clearly there to escape the bombing. The Russians have show little respect for civilian lives, best place to be considering the circumstances. 

 

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

The notion that Ukraineans "only want more arms" is a statement that cannot be verified.

Sure it is, they have dozens upon dozens of interviews with Ukrainian soldiers and leaders asking for more weapons. 

 

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

NATO is DEEP into this conflict with all they have. It is, in many ways, just as existential for this organization as it is for Russian sovereignty (from a geopolitical pov).

Not with all they have, but yes they are deep into the conflict. As well they should be. They only people who this is existential is the Ukrainians. The Russians just pretend it is for them. 

[Rookiescot]

31 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

The civillians in the Azovstal factory are said to be ALL Russian-Ukrainean or at least Russian-speaking Ukraineans. Interviews in Russian have people stating the remaining civillians are mere hostages. Again, accusations, but why would civillians board up with the Azovites? This is not explainable at the moment

Yeah because Russian missiles can tell the difference between Russian speaking Ukrainians and non Russian speaking Ukrainians. Its obvious Czar Putin has been developing this technology for years. Guess what. Everyone in that part of the Ukraine can speak Russian.

So maybe they are just terrified civilians trying to shelter from Czar Putins bombs and missiles.

But I dont mind this narrative from Russia. It might prevent Czar Putins thugs from simply rolling nerve agent into those tunnels. 

37 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

The reality is that NATO is providing ALL new ordinance, ammunition and supplies to the Ukrainean military. Foreign-speaking POV's have now been interviewed, taped and this is released on Bitchute. They identify themselves by name and location. Russia claims they have identifiable Western agents/special ops people who are also captured. Again, we will see, but these are the claims. There is no laws protecting them as combatants, but Russia has at least not shot them out of hand. 

If they are expect to see more of it. You guys brought terrorists from Syria to fight in your illegal war. Westerners will flood into the Ukraine in order to fight against the atrocities being committed. People with far more skills than the nazi Wagner group.

 

48 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

In many ways, this is a unique conflict. It has elements of a civil war, conventional war and the skeleton of a proxy conflict from one side. What started in 2014 as an insurgency, has converted into a full-fledged classic war, but I believe the proxy-elements from the West has been there from day one.

Its not a civil war. Its an invasion by a group of genocidal murderous raping thugs.

 

50 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

The notion that Ukraineans "only want more arms" is a statement that cannot be verified. Granted, this is state of war, so normal assessment cannot be done. All we have is media claims. What we DO know is that several civillians in Mariupol, who claims Ukrainean heritage and citizenship do NOT want this war to go on. They are indifferent to whoever controls that area.  So it appears the West has no interest in actually finding out the real wills of civillians and are totally willing to fund this conflict further on. I think it is quite obvious that a total victory (from Russian side) will end up with a deNATOFIED area and the big bulk of the civillians will be pro-Russians even more than before.

Oh this is pure delusion. What we DO know is that many civilians in Mariupol have been killed, maimed, executed, raped and tortured buy Czar Putins thugs. You think they are sympathetic to his cause? Total nonsense. Utter lies. IF the area ends up pro-Russian it will be because of the genocide being carried out. How can you sit back after making a post like this? The horror being inflicted on these people is unspeakable. Kids witnessing utter brutality. Kids being killed. 

All so that smug bastard Czar Putin can claim a victory? You should be ashamed of yourself.

59 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Except for men dying, NATO is DEEP into this conflict with all they have. It is, in many ways, just as existential for this organization as it is for Russian sovereignty (from a geopolitical pov).

Ah so this is how you justify it. Its an existential threat to mother Russia.

Did you see ANY NATO forces massing on Russias border BEFORE the invasion? No. There was none. There is now though. Countries like Finland and Sweden are now actively seeking membership. NATO countries are now pledging to spend far more on defense. The USA has now reversed its policy of removing troops and hardware from Europe. Its now flooding the place with them.

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

Again, we need peace negotiations and one should not conclude anything about the aftermath of that besides the risk of nuclear conflict is significantly lessened.

No we dont. We need Czar Putin swinging from a rope in the Hague.

NATO has never been more united. China is laughing. The world is now against Russia. The economy is trashed. 

Its all gone wrong for the four foot dictator.

[vlad]

Rookie calm down Norsk tiger is just a wind-up merchant same as most are on this thread him and others just spew shite to wind us up.

[NorskTiger]

In the next days, Azovstal will be further shrink-wrapped and waited out. The remaining of Mariupol is being secured and full logistics are likely to utilize this city soon. 

     Donbass is now being encircled by Russia on all sides. The Westernmost forces are arranged in defensive mode and Ukraine units will suffer massive attrition day by day. 

 

     The initiative remains in the hands of Russia and the domestic support is now as high as it has been at any time. It is reported on Russian media and independent bloggers that Russian men and women are volunteering to sign up for second-line duties of all kinds. 

     It will be interesting to see if Ukraine high command elects to target areas behind the Russian frontline at increasing intensity. Because they are unlikely to avoid further territoreal losses unless they dare a few select counters. However, for every day of Russian consolidation, the nimble potential of Ukraine armored countermoves become less and less. 

 

[NorskTiger]

5 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Interviews with who? If you interview a Ukrainian in Russia what else do you expect them to say? They are the hostages. As to those civilians in the steelworks, they are clearly there to escape the bombing. The Russians have show little respect for civilian lives, best place to be considering the circumstances. 

Sure it is, they have dozens upon dozens of interviews with Ukrainian soldiers and leaders asking for more weapons. 

Not with all they have, but yes they are deep into the conflict. As well they should be. They only people who this is existential is the Ukrainians. The Russians just pretend it is for them. 

This is a major geopolitical struggle, although the physical conflict itself remains confined to the spilling of Ukrainean and Russian blood. Russia is treating the Ukraine captives very well and they are already being identified and set-up for a peaceful release home once the conflict is over. Many of these people clearly will get time to think who goaded them into this situation. 

    The West wants to reduce this to isolated assault by Russia against a neighbor and starting in February 2022. when this entire thing has been a major proxy-conflict even BEFORE Maidan in 2014. 

     What we see happening here is a major geopolitical shift in the world from Lvov to Kabul; from Monrovia to Hong Kong. We will likely continue to see the dollar-world cling to the narrative of the simple picture, while events themselves are shaping the future. 

[Alavan]

21 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

In the next days, Azovstal will be further shrink-wrapped and waited out. The remaining of Mariupol is being secured and full logistics are likely to utilize this city soon. 

     Donbass is now being encircled by Russia on all sides. The Westernmost forces are arranged in defensive mode and Ukraine units will suffer massive attrition day by day. 

     The initiative remains in the hands of Russia and the domestic support is now as high as it has been at any time. It is reported on Russian media and independent bloggers that Russian men and women are volunteering to sign up for second-line duties of all kinds. 

     It will be interesting to see if Ukraine high command elects to target areas behind the Russian frontline at increasing intensity. Because they are unlikely to avoid further territoreal losses unless they dare a few select counters. However, for every day of Russian consolidation, the nimble potential of Ukraine armored countermoves become less and less. 

Luckily for the Ukrainians they have better strategists than you.

Ever thought that the resistance in Mariupol is keeping Russian forces there than can’t be moved to the Donbas?

Expect a massive attack of the Russians on an rather small surface to break through Ukrainian lines in the Donbas. If they succeed, it will look bad for Ukraine, but first they have to succeed.

[EdwardV]

13 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Many of these people clearly will get time to think who goaded them into this situation. 

I guess that’s one way to look at it. Russia commits a blatant act of unprovoked aggression and it’s the west’s fault. It’s always the west’s fault like a broken record. How quickly we forget Putin statement before attacking that he had no intention of doing so. It was just military maneuvers. Don’t worry, the Ukrainians know exactly who to blame. 

 

18 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

The West wants to reduce this to isolated assault by Russia against a neighbor and starting in February 2022. when this entire thing has been a major proxy-conflict even BEFORE Maidan in 2014.

Actually it started back in 2008, and it’s never been a proxy war for Russia. It’s been a hot one ever since. It was Russian troops that fought in Georgia, in Crimea and yes even in Donbas. It’s clearly become a proxy war for the West, but even that’s not their fault. When Putin threatens nuclear war if the west actively participates, they have little choice but to go proxy. See it’s Russia’s fault once again hahaha

[Fanta]

7 hours ago, vlad said:

Deflect as usual.

Defection? I said I don’t know. Why don’t you tell us all the answers? With links this time, not your imaginations

[Thaidup]

Saddam Hussein is looking at all of this asking WTF and Maummar Gaddafi is patting him on the back saying its just the media doing what they do.

[Fanta]

8 hours ago, vlad said:

Is this why Civilians cannot leave Haw Haw because Russia keeps closing the corridors and killing them when they do try and leave. There not leave because they're frightened to leave. Where would they travel to? All Ukraine is now being targeted. Would you stick your head out of the Trench if incoming bullets are flying towards you course you wouldn't?

Russia has already offered and honored a surrender of 1.126 Ukrainian soldiers at Mariupol as well as 40,000+ civilians and escorted them to safety so that answers your questions. This refusal to admit defeat at Mariupol and save his own people by Zelenskky seems inexplicable and raises many questions by many people. 

If I was a civilian trapped there I would wonder why President Zelenskyy - the leader of the “Servants of the People” party - has numerous times refused Russian ultimatums to surrender at Mariupol and has now left me to die underground with no hope of rescue. If I was a soldier trapped there I would wonder why 1,126 Ukrainians soldiers at Mariupol who recently surrendered, were unharmed as promised by the Russians and treated correctly as per the Geneva Conventions while I am being abandoned by my own leader to die. As a Ukrainian soldier not in Mariupol  I would wonder if I too will one day get the same treatment from my leader. As a Ukrainian civilian not in Mariupol I would wonder about the reasons civilians were and are not being evacuated from Mariupol by the Ukrainian authorities but are being evacuated by the Russians. As a MSM writer I would wonder how I could put any sympathetic spin on the repeated dismissals of ultimatums by Zelenskyy that will save his own civilians and soldiers in Mariupol from inevitable death. As an interested observer I would wonder if there is some actual truth behind Putin’s and others claims that the Azov Regiment are neo Nazis because they will not allow 1,000+ women, children and old men to leave. As a human rights observer I would have to consider the possibility that these civilians are being used as human shields, hostages by the Ukrainian commanders and are being used as sympathy fodder to. As a civilian of a country sending billions of dollars in aid and equipment I would wonder why the Ukrainian president is doing this. As a member of the EU I would wonder exactly who we are letting into our group. Personally I have a lot of questions. Do YOU have any answers? 

[EdwardV]

Ukraine gets more planes:

They have received additional aircraft and aircraft parts to help them get more aircraft in the air," Kirby told a news briefing, without elaborating. Kirby said Washington had not provided any aircraft to Kyiv. "We certainly have helped with the trans-shipment of some additional spare parts that have helped with their aircraft needs, but we have not transported whole aircraft," he said.

Hahaha the Americans make a funny. Translation = America took the planes apart before shipping them. Wonder who they got them from? Poland is the obvious answer but it could be half a dozen other counties too. They are lining up to sell their Russian military equipment as they know the expiration date is coming up. No future spare parts. Even little Cyprus had offered to sell its T-80 tanks and other equipment. India sees the writing on the wall too and just canceled a big order for Russian helicopters. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-military-gets-more-aircraft-parts-repair-others-pentagon-says-2022-04-19/

[Rookiescot]

Cracks are starting too appear. 

Russian tycoon Oleg Tinkov denounces ‘insane war’ in Ukraine | Ukraine | The Guardian

Particularly enjoyed this line.

“90 percent of Russians ARE against this war!” Tinkov said. “Of course there are morons who draw Z but 10 percent of any country are morons,” he said, referring to what has become a Russian symbol of support for the war.

[BigHewer]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

10 percent of any country are morons,” he said

Mr. Tinkov is the early front runner for Quote of the Day. How very true.