News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Rookiescot]

37 minutes ago, butterfly said:

are Russians really that different from Ukrainians? it's really a candid question.

Do they have more in commons than differences?

maybe Zelensky should consider this first, and surrender to his Russian "friends"

Europeans have a lot in common. Should we have rolled over to Hitler?

 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I have to prove this to you? Lol. You people really are lost. It's a blatant fact friend... I don't have to prove anything. Go look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. 

There is no proof but so what ? Russian anti- democratic interference has propped up Belarus and Kazakhstan recently. So why shouldn’t NATO have provided pro- democratic assistance to rid Ukraine of the pro- Russia traitor elected on false pro-EU premise ? 

[Rookiescot]

43 minutes ago, butterfly said:

are Russians really that different from Ukrainians? it's really a candid question.

Do they have more in commons than differences?

maybe Zelensky should consider this first, and surrender to his Russian "friends"

So following your logic Russia should surrender to any invader?

Given we all have so much in common.

[butterfly]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Europeans have a lot in common. Should we have rolled over to Hitler?

well, Churchill almost did in Dunkerque when the entire British army was marooned there,

and France, Poland, Belgium, Netherland etc... certainly did surrender

Hitler was ruling over western Europe, and bombed London into almost oblivion

if it wasn't for his Russia war mistake, maybe we would all be speaking German now, including the Brits 

Edited April 18, 2022 by butterfly

[butterfly]

27 minutes ago, vlad said:

Do you not understand Butterfly that you cannot sit round a table to discuss peace when the aggressor is lobbing missiles at your city's killing kids. Would you ??

nobody said it was easy, and it takes a real state man to initiate peace

Can Zelensky be that man?

[butterfly]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So following your logic Russia should surrender to any invader?

Given we all have so much in common.

if those invaders were Ukrainians, that's possible 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, butterfly said:

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace. Calling names Putin and the Russians is not going to help, and that's not a positive way to find a solution for peace or a compromise to end the war. How many more killed civilians and war crimes do we need to see?

Zelensky needs to ease his positions because he might find himself in a political hole for negotiating an exit strategy with the Russians. Unless we are prepared to see Ukraine as a war zone for the next 10 years.

It takes two to tango,

Peace ENTIRELY within Putins scope.

Requires Putin Unconditional ACTION TO LEAVE. There will be no meaningful peace talks before then.

Zelensky will continue his act to mimic, mock & parrot Putins fake peace talking to stop any political advantage to Putin. That’s Putins Game, to provoke a negative reaction from Zelensky so he looks bad on the world stage. 

Putin looks a complete fool doing this. 
Never before has an invader aggressor mentioned peace ! So Weird. Why do that unless it’s a ceasefire delay trick to regroup after being badly mauled for 45 days …..

[Fester]

1 hour ago, butterfly said:

do you even have any evidence of that? yeah, thought so too 

Well we had evidence that Putin wasn't going to invade Ukraine, because he said so.  

 

[Fester]

5 hours ago, Politenessman said:

It might have been the plan, but it wouldn't have helped in the slightest. I used to be a paratrooper back in the dark ages (taking airfields was a huge part of our role), just taking an airfield doesn't cut it - you need to hold the approach and exit corridors, plus a couple of kms either side of the runway (just to be out of 7.62mm MG range) and MANPADS have gotten way better since my day.

Well I expect the Russian paras were hoping for all that and more.

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, butterfly said:

you are dreaming, but seriously, what will it take for Zelensky to get the memo?

No doubt since Putin is in it for the long run. I’m guessing what you want to hear is Ukraine unconditionally surrendering and agreeing to be part of Russia? Or at the very least a vassal state. Just as big a dream.

instead what is likely to happen is Russia breaking its army in Ukraine. This is the 80s where Russia has an unlimited supply of men and weapons. There are plenty of reports that large portions of Russia military stockpiled equipment isn’t functional. Corruption has decimated it. The current draft age portion of the population is also its smallest in history relative to the total. You can thank the collapse of the Soviet Union for that. It’s already reported Russian tank factory and naval shipyard is shut down due to lack of critical items. Not hard to believe that’s probably also true about its aircraft factories. I’m not saying Russia will lose, they need to do a national mobilization first in order to win (the real question is why hasn’t it yet?). However I do think it’s likely the Russia army will be broken in the effort. Ukraine will be it’s last war. 

[Fester]

2 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Rarely ever does "miracle weapons" introduced into a new war perform piracles. It is STILL the T-72's and the T-80's Which do the main work in Ukraine. It is STILL established fighters and bombers who do the work.  NATO must be very worried about their potential staying power if they were to introduce their F-35 Wunderwaffe. 

You do write some carp but this was the most amusing bit.

The Ukrainians seem to be doing rather well with their existing tanks and MiGs.

Present "miracle weapons" topping the success charts: MBT LAW, JAVELIN and NEPTUNE.  

And if the F35 was to be introduced I don't think it would be NATO doing the worrying. 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, butterfly said:

well, Churchill almost did in Dunkerque when the entire British army was marooned there,

and France, Poland, Belgium, Netherland etc... certainly did surrender

Hitler was ruling over western Europe, and bombed London into almost oblivion

if it wasn't for his Russia war mistake, maybe we would all be speaking German now, including the Brits 

More carp. Britain had successfully defended itself to the point where Hitler gave up in late 1940 and went looking elsewhere. Didn't that turn out well for him??

[NorskTiger]

2 minutes ago, Fester said:

You do write some carp but this was the most amusing bit.

The Ukrainians seem to be doing rather well with their existing tanks and MiGs.

Present "miracle weapons" topping the success charts: MBT LAW, JAVELIN and NEPTUNE.  

And if the F35 was to be introduced I don't think it would be NATO doing the worrying. 

   Western media is certainly talking a good game about all the successes of the Javelin. When you read Russian sources, it appears the story is different. 

  How any documented blow-ups of a Tank with a Javelin has been vitnessed?  BTR's maybe. BMP's maybe.. 

   But T-72's-- Don't know too many reports. 

    The F-35 will not be introduced. It is too slow, cannot carry much load without losing it's stealth properties, and... as mentioned... It will be like the Panther at Kursk. To some extent spectacular, but also too little field experience to even know how to use it the best. 

   

   Back to the standing on the ground. One can only read what one wants to believe or try to make deducation by reading more sources. Furtunately as a a multilingual Norwegian it is easy to get different sources in Finnish, Russian, German and of course all the English. 

    What IS a reality is that the main Ukrainean field army appears to be enveloped around Donbass and Mariupol is lost, but the mopping up is done slowly by Chechen forces, who have been very successfull in city battles and are just starting to be deployed in larger numbers. After Mariupol, it is lilely they will be redeployed to Nikolayev and possibvly Odessa. 

     Strategically, it is a slow and steady trend of pushing the frontline westwards. It is also starting to be apparent that the early push for Kiev was an attempt at Coup de main and when that failed and attempt to draw the Ukraine remaining army outside Donbass to the city. I don't think anyone can ever think the Russian units were set up to do a serious attempt to take Kiev (at this time).

     What will happen next? We will see once Mariupol is completely cleaned out and the units there is released. I suspect they will split in half with one part pushing towards Nikolayev and the other half going north and up on East side of Dnepr. 

    

[Fester]

1 hour ago, butterfly said:

nobody said it was easy, and it takes a real state man to initiate peace

Can Zelensky be that man?

I take that to mean that Putin ain't no statesman. 

[Fester]

3 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

   Western media is certainly talking a good game about all the successes of the Javelin. When you read Russian sources, it appears the story is different. 

  How any documented blow-ups of a Tank with a Javelin has been vitnessed?  BTR's maybe. BMP's maybe.. 

   But T-72's-- Don't know too many reports. 

    The F-35 will not be introduced. It is too slow, cannot carry much load without losing it's stealth properties, and... as mentioned... It will be like the Panther at Kursk. To some extent spectacular, but also too little field experience to even know how to use it the best. 

   Back to the standing on the ground. One can only read what one wants to believe or try to make deducation by reading more sources. Furtunately as a a multilingual Norwegian it is easy to get different sources in Finnish, Russian, German and of course all the English. 

    What IS a reality is that the main Ukrainean field army appears to be enveloped around Donbass and Mariupol is lost, but the mopping up is done slowly by Chechen forces, who have been very successfull in city battles and are just starting to be deployed in larger numbers. After Mariupol, it is lilely they will be redeployed to Nikolayev and possibvly Odessa. 

     Strategically, it is a slow and steady trend of pushing the frontline westwards. It is also starting to be apparent that the early push for Kiev was an attempt at Coup de main and when that failed and attempt to draw the Ukraine remaining army outside Donbass to the city. I don't think anyone can ever think the Russian units were set up to do a serious attempt to take Kiev (at this time).

     What will happen next? We will see once Mariupol is completely cleaned out and the units there is released. I suspect they will split in half with one part pushing towards Nikolayev and the other half going north and up on East side of Dnepr. 

Do you do weather forecasts too?

[NorskTiger]

Without being 100%, I believe butterfly was raising a rhetorical question about Zelensky. 

   It is Zelesky's ball. HE is the one to negotiate, IF THIS IS ONLY ABOUT UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, which we know it is not. 

        What is needed here is a third person og great stature and trusted by both USA and Russia. Are there any left of that caliber?

              

     Maybe it will end up being Germany who will be peace broker. They certainly do not want to freeze to death in the next coming fall. 

[NorskTiger]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

There is no proof but so what ? Russian anti- democratic interference has propped up Belarus and Kazakhstan recently. So why shouldn’t NATO have provided pro- democratic assistance to rid Ukraine of the pro- Russia traitor elected on false pro-EU premise ? 

Are you seriously saying that if a politician is perceived as being dishonest by the opposition, it is fair and square to topple a duly elected government?

  And you STILL do not understand why the Western hegemon is so utterly called out by anyone outside it's sphere these days?

[EdwardV]

12 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Maybe it will end up being Germany who will be peace broker

The Ukrainian’s don’t trust the Germans and for good reason. They have dithered and procrastinated for the last two months, clearly hedging their bets. That’s not someone you want being the impartial third party. I do understand why Russia would want them. 
 

Regardless it won’t matter since Putin has no interest in a ceasefire or a negotiated peace. According to the Austrian PM, Putin expects to win. Why would you settle for half a loaf when you think you can have the whole thing?

[EdwardV]

16 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

And you STILL do not understand why the Western hegemon is so utterly called out by anyone outside it's sphere these days?

Good thing it’s sphere is so big. 

[NorskTiger]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

The Ukrainian’s don’t trust the Germans and for good reason. They have dithered and procrastinated for the last two months, clearly hedging their bets. That’s not someone you want being the impartial third party. I do understand why Russia would want them. 
 

Regardless it won’t matter since Putin has no interest in a ceasefire or a negotiated peace. According to the Austrian PM, Putin expects to win. Why would you settle for half a loaf when you think you can have the whole thing?

        Well, it would still entail costs of lives lost, houses destroyed and so on and so on.

  There are plenty of reasons to accept a request for negotiations if Zelensky or NATO desired so. 

[butterfly]

1 hour ago, Fester said:

More carp. Britain had successfully defended itself to the point where Hitler gave up in late 1940 and went looking elsewhere. Didn't that turn out well for him??

The Brits barely escaped Dunkerque, and Hitler was too busy on the Russian front

then the Allies came to the rescue, otherwise you would be speaking German as a Brit 

[butterfly]

1 hour ago, Fester said:

I take that to mean that Putin ain't no statesman. 

Putin is the invader, he is in a different position, and very popular at the moment in Russia it seems, so definitely a stateman for Russians, and that's all that matters for Putin and Russia

Edited April 18, 2022 by butterfly

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

Well, it would still entail costs of lives lost, houses destroyed and so on and so on.

  There are plenty of reasons to accept a request for negotiations if Zelensky or NATO desired so. 

True but the alternative for the Ukrainians is to live under Russian rule. They did that once before and didn’t like it. 
 

Didn’t Putin say last week there would be no more negotiations? That’s beside the point there was no reason to believe Russia was serious. 

[Fanta]

3 hours ago, EdwardV said:

national mobilization first in order to win (the real question is why hasn’t it yet?). However I do think it’s likely the Russia army will be broken in the effort. Ukraine will be it’s last war. 

Why would Russia even need to do that? Even if we believed the Ukrainian claims of 20,000 Russian casualties, Russia still have approximately half a gazillion soldiers left. And an Air Force and a Navy. Russia’s losses to date leave them far from weak in Ukraine or leave Russia itself vulnerable. Russia gets new 250,000 conscripts annually and has 2 million reserves. And Russia’s last war? That is wishful thinking at best. Ukraine is not negotiating from a position of strength in the peace talks. If Russia takes the 2 disputed regions and then press for peace talks Zelenskyy will have to talk. His recent statement that he won’t swap territory for peace is setting himself up for a political fall, sooner or later. 

[EdwardV]

39 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Ukraine is not negotiating from a position of strength in the peace talks. If Russia takes the 2 disputed regions and then press for peace talks Zelenskyy will have to talk. His recent statement that he won’t swap territory for peace is setting himself up for a political fall, sooner or later.

No they are not, but then neither is Russia at the current time. Why do you think Russia will press for peace, with the Donbas they will have little more than what they started with? I thought Putin wanted security for Russia? Donbas doesn’t do that for him. Zelenskyy isn’t going to agree to any deal that doesn’t guarantee Ukraine security. His original demand was basically a NATO light with an article 5.  At the very least he will want the ability to build up the military with modern heavy weapons. He and the west know another Russian attack would just be a matter of a few years.