News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

That Kyiv Independent website is either pro Russian or not located in Ukraine…. it has some odd stuff in a time of war if it really is either pro Ukrainian or located in Ukraine. Or maybe independent news means something different in non Western media? 
First the “Swapping dead Russian soldiers for live Ukrainians soldiers” story and now “Defenders of besieged Mariupol plead for help, criticize commandment”

https://kyivindependent.com/national/defenders-of-besieged-mariupol-plead-for-help-criticize-commandment/ 

 

[Fester]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

That Kyiv Independent website is either pro Russian or not located in Ukraine…. it has some odd stuff in a time of war if it really is either pro Ukrainian or located in Ukraine. Or maybe independent news means something different in non Western media? 
First the “Swapping dead Russian soldiers for live Ukrainians soldiers” story and now “Defenders of besieged Mariupol plead for help, criticize commandment”

https://kyivindependent.com/national/defenders-of-besieged-mariupol-plead-for-help-criticize-commandment/ 

I'm glad you acknowledged that, at least.

[oldschooler]

11 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

What does it mean, I have a bridge to sell you?

Many years ago it was said that con men in New York City used to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to suckers as a scam. I don’t know whether it was an urban myth or it actually happened, and perhaps other famous bridges were used elsewhere. Nowadays, after something farfetched has been touted, someone might add, “And if you’ll believe that, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you,” i.e. you’re gullible and you’ll believe anything.

If you believe that the actor who played a president on TV, who was hired to be a president is actually in control and running things... well I've got a bridge to sell you. As a former member of the OSCE from 2016-2021 (you're going to have to go look that up) I can tell you the conflict that has been raging in Ukraine since the "West's" engineered coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014 is no longer a conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It is now a war between those who have vested interests in an anachronism we call NATO. As a "treaty organization" you have to admit, they have clearly failed their mission. 

Been clear since 1945 that the only security problem in Europe is RUSSIA.

Nobody is selling any “ bridges”

No Evidence for your internal NATO war proposal then …..

NATO is bleeding Russia Dry ….and this is important so pay attention …Outside NATOUkraine accept their role here.
 
Zelensky is the democratically elected President of Ukraine. His past fully declared.

Previous President secretly pro - Putin & deceived the people by pretending to support their aspirations towards EU. Removed by popular country wide fury when that was exposed.

So what if West helped ? Like Russia didn’t do same in Belarus or Kazakhstan …..

OSCE must be missing your blinding strategic brilliance ….although that org. seems somewhat redundant right now

[Fanta]

24 minutes ago, Fester said:

I'm glad you acknowledged that, at least.

Never hurts to question your sources.
Or read them, at least. 

“Location - Kyiv” well that clears things up. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kyiv_Independent

 

 

[Politenessman]

48 minutes ago, Fester said:

Thanks, I think that part of the supply issue was to be solved by taking the Hostomel airport near Kyiv. After a brief success for the Russians, this was quickly retaken.

It might have been the plan, but it wouldn't have helped in the slightest. I used to be a paratrooper back in the dark ages (taking airfields was a huge part of our role), just taking an airfield doesn't cut it - you need to hold the approach and exit corridors, plus a couple of kms either side of the runway (just to be out of 7.62mm MG range) and MANPADS have gotten way better since my day.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Politenessman said:

It might have been the plan, but it wouldn't have helped in the slightest. I used to be a paratrooper back in the dark ages (taking airfields was a huge part of our role), just taking an airfield doesn't cut it - you need to hold the approach and exit corridors, plus a couple of kms either side of the runway (just to be out of 7.62mm MG range) and MANPADS have gotten way better since my day.

And if the "enemy" shell their own runway all that effort has been wasted.

You now control a closed airport.

[Freeduhdumb]

4 hours ago, Fester said:

You will have to prove this "engineered coup de tat" as fact. Or are you trying to sell us a bridge?

I have to prove this to you? Lol. You people really are lost. It's a blatant fact friend... I don't have to prove anything. Go look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. 

[butterfly]

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace. Calling names Putin and the Russians is not going to help, and that's not a positive way to find a solution for peace or a compromise to end the war. How many more killed civilians and war crimes do we need to see?

Zelensky needs to ease his positions because he might find himself in a political hole for negotiating an exit strategy with the Russians. Unless we are prepared to see Ukraine as a war zone for the next 10 years.

It takes two to tango,

Edited April 18, 2022 by butterfly

[butterfly]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'd agree the Ukrainian suffering is down to Putin no doubt

the EU and the US have their responsibilities too, they have been playing dangerous games with Ukraine

[Rookiescot]

19 minutes ago, butterfly said:

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace. Calling names Putin and the Russians is not going to help, and that's not a positive way to find a solution for peace or a compromise to end the war. How many more killed civilians and war crimes do we need to see?

Zelensky needs to ease his positions because he might find himself in a political hole for negotiating an exit strategy with the Russians. Unless we are prepared to see Ukraine as a war zone for the next 10 years.

It takes two to tango,

The Ukraine didn't want to tango. It was Czar Putins decision. So tell me Flutterby if someone invaded your country and committed atrocities would you be calling for compromise? Would you try and appease the aggressor? 

[Politenessman]

40 minutes ago, butterfly said:

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace. Calling names Putin and the Russians is not going to help, and that's not a positive way to find a solution for peace or a compromise to end the war. How many more killed civilians and war crimes do we need to see?

Zelensky needs to ease his positions because he might find himself in a political hole for negotiating an exit strategy with the Russians. Unless we are prepared to see Ukraine as a war zone for the next 10 years.

It takes two to tango,

I thank God that Churchill wasn't similarly minded.

Have you considered the possibility that the Ukrainians are prepared to fight for decades if need be to be free?

Have you also considered the possibility that if Putin gets what he wants, he will feel that he can push for the next and the next objective until he finally crosses a line that starts a major war, just like Hitler did?

[Politenessman]

42 minutes ago, butterfly said:

the EU and the US have their responsibilities too, they have been playing dangerous games with Ukraine

yes, I can see why assisting the victim of an invasion to resist is bad...

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I have to prove this to you? Lol. You people really are lost. It's a blatant fact friend... I don't have to prove anything. Go look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. 

Strange that such a blatant "fact" is only broadcast by Russia & Co. You really do have to prove it, friend.

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, butterfly said:

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace.

Russia ceasing all offensive operations would be a good start don’t you think? Follow up that with immediately leaving all Ukrainian territory, including Donbas and Crimea. War over. See that wasn’t too hard.

[NorskTiger]

NATO wants it all. They surely want Russia to be bloodied in a conflict. Likewise, they clearly enjoy the ability to build an economic warfare against Russia and force their subjects and client states to follow with that. 

   Now, let's think about the "bloodied first". Does Russia take an existential beating to the integrity of it's armed forces? Not a chance. What people have to understand is that Russia does have stomach for higher casualites than the West. This is partly because they have a military designed to fight major conflicts; while the West/NATO is primarily designed to do police work or at worst to take on minor nations. This is also part of the reason why Russian military expenditures are LESS than NATO-countries in peacetime. Russia can more easily shift it's economy towards warfare. 

    Does the "bloodying" of the Russian forces damage their forces? Or does it actually improve the overall military? Realiz that up to 1944, Russia were rarely able to mount sustained offensives. Stalingrad was a masterstroke of a counterattack to a vastly overextended Wehrmacht and Kursk was a juggernaut countermove after a German vast offensive petered out.  

   However during this entire time, Russia refined and hardened it's soldiers, it's divisions, it's material and it's doctrines. For sure, Russia is MUCH MORE prepared for a major land combat with NATO at the moment (And God may we never have to think about it more). NATO and USA is too concerned with the military being a social structure to exppromote various agendas and as a dumster to piss away MIC money. Rarely ever does "miracle weapons" introduced into a new war perform piracles. It is STILL the T-72's and the T-80's Which do the main work in Ukraine. It is STILL established fighters and bombers who do the work.  NATO must be very worried about their potential staying power if they were to introduce their F-35 Wunderwaffe. 

 

  Is Russia being beaten economically? I think the sanctions are a catalyst for Russia to shift their entire economy and an accellerant to the de-dollarization of the world. Hungary has already broken ranks with regards to paying for gas in Rubles. A few more that chips off and Germany will do the same. 

   NATO has no option, but to continue fuelling the war by providing pretty much ALL new ordinance to Ukraine. They also provide intelligence, performed by their military to aid in targeting and location of larger Russian targets. All NATO and Russia are doing at the moment is dancing around each other and avoiding to trigger any Casus belli clauses. 

   The moment one of the parts (NATO or Russia) decides to declare war, there already seems plenty of reasons to do it, which would be acceptable reasons in history of warfare. 

    When NATO arms, finances and politically organizes Ukraine's war, the only thing left is physical presence. Even this is likely being done at present, with several Western POV's at Russian hands. The West has to deny they have nothing to do with these and thereby abandoning it's citizens. I very much doubt these guys will be shot like Franciteurs, but it probably would not be a war crime to execute them. They are at mercy of Russian mercy. 

 

     It is time for members of the NATO vasall states to realize what is going on. Their only argument is to demonize Russia. That is fine and understandable, but does it gain anything? So what is the other option? More weapons, resources and political lobbying? 

     NATO is a one-trick pony in this conflict, while trying to do it all. 

[astro]

Are you on a monthly salary for posting on the internet?

Just curious.

[butterfly]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Russia ceasing all offensive operations would be a good start don’t you think? Follow up that with immediately leaving all Ukrainian territory, including Donbas and Crimea. War over. See that wasn’t too hard.

you are dreaming, but seriously, what will it take for Zelensky to get the memo?

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, Politenessman said:

I thank God that Churchill wasn't similarly minded.

Have you considered the possibility that the Ukrainians are prepared to fight for decades if need be to be free?

Have you also considered the possibility that if Putin gets what he wants, he will feel that he can push for the next and the next objective until he finally crosses a line that starts a major war, just like Hitler did?

Hey Godwin. There's a theory going spare!

[butterfly]

1 hour ago, Politenessman said:

Have you also considered the possibility that if Putin gets what he wants, he will feel that he can push for the next and the next objective until he finally crosses a line that starts a major war, just like Hitler did?

do you even have any evidence of that? yeah, thought so too 

[butterfly]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

The Ukraine didn't want to tango. It was Czar Putins decision. So tell me Flutterby if someone invaded your country and committed atrocities would you be calling for compromise? Would you try and appease the aggressor? 

that's a tough question. It would depend on the aggressor I guess. If it was culturally close to my country, I wouldn't see any reason why resistance would be needed.

If it was Chinese or Americans, then yeah, you raise a very valid point.

[butterfly]

are Russians really that different from Ukrainians? it's really a candid question.

Do they have more in commons than differences?

maybe Zelensky should consider this first, and surrender to his Russian "friends"

Edited April 18, 2022 by butterfly

[vlad]

2 hours ago, butterfly said:

what's going to take for Zelensky to sit down and start discussing peace. Calling names Putin and the Russians is not going to help, and that's not a positive way to find a solution for peace or a compromise to end the war. How many more killed civilians and war crimes do we need to see?

Zelensky needs to ease his positions because he might find himself in a political hole for negotiating an exit strategy with the Russians. Unless we are prepared to see Ukraine as a war zone for the next 10 years.

It takes two to tango,

Do you not understand Butterfly that you cannot sit round a table to discuss peace when the aggressor is lobbing missiles at your city's killing kids. Would you ??

[vlad]

51 minutes ago, astro said:

Are you on a monthly salary for posting on the internet?

Just curious.

No he is just being a pest astro and trolling. Nato Nato Nato is all we get from him.

[Alavan]

29 minutes ago, butterfly said:

that's a tough question. It would depend on the aggressor I guess. If it was culturally close to my country, I wouldn't see any reason why resistance would be needed.

If it was Chinese or Americans, then yeah, you raise a very valid point.

So if you are invaded by what you call a "culturally close agressor", let him do and enjoy.
I can't see no difference between a cultural close and a strange agressor.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Russia ceasing all offensive operations would be a good start don’t you think? Follow up that with immediately leaving all Ukrainian territory, including Donbas and Crimea. War over. See that wasn’t too hard.

Exactly. Peace is only about Putin. Doubt Zelensky would follow Russia over the border.Too early though. Putin will try to seize Donbass first.  NATO need to get the Heavy Weapons in there NOW.