News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[Stardust]

10 hours ago, EdwardV said:

"the Russian delegation announced they would significantly scale back their military activity near Kyiv, in order to increase trust and “create an atmosphere of peace.” - This is the spin you use when you are getting your rear end kicked. Of course when all you are doing is repositioning your troops to attack a different part of the country, is that really an attempt to create an atmosphere of peace?  

There were two main points in the article. First:

"a pledge of neutrality and no NATO membership, in exchange for a framework that would allow eight other countries to act as security guarantors, including Poland, Turkey and Israel. The guarantees would be legally binding and allow those countries to intervene if Ukraine is ever attacked in the future."

In other articles, the eight countries included those above and the US, France and the UK. That's NATO's main members and throwing in Israel (so much for Nazi claims) for good measure. When you add in a legally binding ability to intervene if attacked, that's pretty much NATO. Even if you wrote in language banning the permanent basing of foreign troops it doesn't mean much. NATO and the US specifically are already talking about permanent basing of heavy (read tanks) troops in Poland, Slovakia, and Romania (along with the Baltic States). It would be a distinction without a difference. You can't blame Ukraine for demanding this, but at the same time how does Russia agree to it? If they do, they would never be able to attack Ukraine again (which they fully intend to do IMO).

Second: 

They warned that no treaty can be signed and no referendum held while Russian troops are still in Ukraine. Also, the delegation’s head insisted that the embattled Donbass region in eastern Ukraine will remain a part of the country

So before a peace treaty can be signed, all Russian troops would have to be out of Ukraine (including Donbass). Oh yeah I can see Russia agreeing to this hahaha. Same with agreeing Donbass remains part of Ukraine. Putin agrees to this, next day he slips in the shower and falls on some bullets. 

Reading your post also comes into my mind this video footage they shown from the Russian soldiers in the truck who are talking how they came to the Ukraine without telling them anything about and their chaotic situation

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10669969/GCHQ-boss-says-Ukraine-invasion-chaos-Russian-incompetence.html

it is like in the history of the ww1 where the Russian soldiers made a rebellion. And also the negoations started at that time.

[Saltire]

I cant find a more appropriate forum to post this, but I came accross this youtube channel and thought I would share. Many Russian bloggers are taking a risk while cautiously filtering what they can and can't say about how they have been affected since the invasion.

This young man tells it ike it is very eloquently. He outlines what effect the sanctions etc have had so far in his daily life.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Saltire

[Smithydog]

14 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

No. Batton rounds are fired from a different weapon. You can get "less lethal" rounds for something like a shotgun. 

Thanks.

Sometimes with little knowledge about such stuff, curiosity can get the better of you.

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Using that apologist thinking there would be no POWs because all captured soldiers would be executed in the spot. That’s why the Geneva convention exists to protect civilians and non combatants (aka POWs).

I’m afraid you need to read what I said once again. My point wasn’t that it’s ok to treat POW’s badly, it was that if Russia hadn’t invaded there wouldn’t be any POW. Let us not loose sight of this fact. 

[Smithydog]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

So the Nazis should have investigated their own war crimes?

Of course not. It was because of what happened there that much of International Law was developed to cover that.

The UN are monitoring both sides as outlined in this article and I have no doubt they will investigate this claim as well.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/30/russia-may-have-committed-war-crimes-in-ukraine-un-rights-head

It is a bit incongruent that Russia seems to cry out for acknowledgement of alleged war crimes by Ukraine yet , in my opinion, the seemingly biggest war criminal who ordered the whole thing on false pretenses sits as President of that country.

[Poolie]

57 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Of course not. It was because of what happened there that much of International Law was developed to cover that.

The UN are monitoring both sides as outlined in this article and I have no doubt they will investigate this claim as well.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/30/russia-may-have-committed-war-crimes-in-ukraine-un-rights-head

It is a bit incongruent that Russia seems to cry out for acknowledgement of alleged war crimes by Ukraine yet , in my opinion, the seemingly biggest war criminal who ordered the whole thing on false pretenses sits as President of that country.

I very much doubt that the ICC will rely on stuff posted on the internet as the basis to convict anyone. If they do they aren't credible.

[Stardust]

13 hours ago, EdwardV said:

"the Russian delegation announced they would significantly scale back their military activity near Kyiv, in order to increase trust and “create an atmosphere of peace.” - This is the spin you use when you are getting your rear end kicked. Of course when all you are doing is repositioning your troops to attack a different part of the country, is that really an attempt to create an atmosphere of peace?  

There were two main points in the article. First:

"a pledge of neutrality and no NATO membership, in exchange for a framework that would allow eight other countries to act as security guarantors, including Poland, Turkey and Israel. The guarantees would be legally binding and allow those countries to intervene if Ukraine is ever attacked in the future."

In other articles, the eight countries included those above and the US, France and the UK. That's NATO's main members and throwing in Israel (so much for Nazi claims) for good measure. When you add in a legally binding ability to intervene if attacked, that's pretty much NATO. Even if you wrote in language banning the permanent basing of foreign troops it doesn't mean much. NATO and the US specifically are already talking about permanent basing of heavy (read tanks) troops in Poland, Slovakia, and Romania (along with the Baltic States). It would be a distinction without a difference. You can't blame Ukraine for demanding this, but at the same time how does Russia agree to it? If they do, they would never be able to attack Ukraine again (which they fully intend to do IMO).

Second: 

They warned that no treaty can be signed and no referendum held while Russian troops are still in Ukraine. Also, the delegation’s head insisted that the embattled Donbass region in eastern Ukraine will remain a part of the country

So before a peace treaty can be signed, all Russian troops would have to be out of Ukraine (including Donbass). Oh yeah I can see Russia agreeing to this hahaha. Same with agreeing Donbass remains part of Ukraine. Putin agrees to this, next day he slips in the shower and falls on some bullets. 

Also that comes in my mind of their talkings at the moment

 

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Poolie said:

I very much doubt that the ICC will rely on stuff posted on the internet as the basis to convict anyone. If they do they aren't credible.

That's why the word investigate was used.

[Alavan]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

So the Nazis should have investigated their own war crimes?

It means that as Ukraine acknowledged the possible crime and they said they will investigate, there is nothing more to do here for AI. Let’s wait till we hear of the result.

Nazis never acknowledged their war crimes, found them even no crimes. That is a whole different fact.

It’s not only reading, you have to also understand what you read Fanta.

[butterfly]

I don't see an agreement coming any time soon, Zelensky is over his head with his demands, he needs to get back to earth and be reasonable, he is not acting as President in a TV series

what an actor, and he has international leaders as his main audience,

what possibly could go wrong? 

Edited March 31, 2022 by butterfly

[Noble_Design]

1 minute ago, butterfly said:

I don't see an agreement coming any time soon, Zelensky is over his head with his demands, he needs to get back to earth and be reasonable, he is not acting as President in a TV series

what an actor, and he has international leaders as an audience, what possibly could things go wrong? 

There could be a direct negotiation between Zelensky and Putin soon, not sure whether it will be over the phone or face to face.

I hope if they do meet and if the meeting is televised, neither one will do like what Will Smith did to Chris Rock recently 

[Poolie]

30 minutes ago, Fester said:

That's why the word investigate was used.

Investigate an internet claim? Same thing in my book.

[butterfly]

3 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

There could be a direct negotiation between Zelensky and Putin soon

a bit too early for this, and don't think it will ever happen, Zelensky has burnt his bridges with his hysterical anti-Putin rethoric

Biden is also making things worse by calling out Putin, knowing the past of the US with wars, it really feels "hypocrites" and doesn't give much credit to the US for a concrete resolution

[oldschooler]

Article Flaws: It’s “ headlines” not “deadlines”. this war is not “ stagnant”. no “ doors are open “. no “ security guarantees “ are worth a damn with Russians. they clearly lie like breathing for purposes of deceit & advantage.

Amnesty International are concerned only with “prisoners (or victims) of conscience”; with People attacked for what they SAY. not with people committing any acts of violence, good or bad.

Some “civilized” gentle naive souls are STILL not clear what Russians are doing or what they have been like for their entire 1000 year history. Cease treating them as Civilized Equals. 

Russians clearly have no respect for any decent conventions or laws. From top to bottom; just their survivalist ,thieving, lying “culture”. Communism & Gangsterism a PERFECT Fit.

Russians Strongly Disliked or Hated by EVERYONE on Earth. Same as Muslims and CCP Chinese, for clear reasons. 

waste of time trying to examine  and corroborate Russian statements. who the f**k believes or cares what they say about anything. Only their actions matter …..as actions don’t lie. Leave  or Die. 

Russian “diplomacy” here is fake delaying PR tactic.  Russians are NOT withdrawing or reducing anything. “repositioning” is the military term for their current actions. reorganizing their badly mauled decimated forces.

Russians are always systematically breaching Geneva Convention so can expect reply in kind. sure reprisals are  inevitably happening , so what ? no fake videos required.

Kneecapping ? If true, they’re Getting Off Light ….Allies in WW2 shot all SS troops on sight after SS murdered POWs. that’s fine under basic human code. Russian Army no different to SS. 
All in Ukraine can be shot on sight under basic law of trespass let alone invading , murdering & torturing….

To hell with Russian fake diplomacy. Let them continue to be bled dry in Ukraine until they all completely withdraw. 

[butterfly]

the solution is quite simple:

1. Change the Ukraine constitution, remove the NATO part, and pledge for a neutral Ukraine

2. NATO and Russia sign an agreement to exclude certain countries from joining

3. Give autonomous region status, not independence, to Russian assets to keep Ukraine whole

4. Zelensky resign and organize new elections, he is burn

[Marble-eye]

Putin is a total liar and cannot be trusted as proven, talks would be total useless as all it would do is give the Russians time to re-arm then renege on the talks. The Russians cannot be seen to have gained anything by this heinous crime.

Just keep on pushing the Russians out of Ukraine, Putin has been totally humiliated and he needs his nose rubbing in it now. 

The future of Europe lies on Zelensky and his brave warriors shoulders, he fails, we all fail.

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, butterfly said:

a bit too early for this, and don't think it will ever happen, Zelensky has burnt his bridges with his hysterical anti-Putin rethoric

Biden is also making things worse by calling out Putin, knowing the past of the US with wars, it really feels "hypocrites" and doesn't give much credit to the US for a concrete resolution

All sane rational people are “ anti - Putin” (except his paid collaborators). 
This situation is NOTHING to do with Biden and ALL to do with Putin and his false perception of Russia being “ threatened”.  

How are any western words “ making things worse”. It’s all as bad as it can get, short of NATO getting attacked or WMD involved.  
 

Putin will do what he wants unless stopped or contained or removed. 

Stop pretending otherwise. 
 

 

[butterfly]

5 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Just keep on pushing the Russians out of Ukraine, Putin has been totally humiliated and he needs his nose rubbing in it now.

easy to say when it's not your civilians on the front line,

 

6 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

The future of Europe lies on Zelensky and his brave warriors shoulders, he fails, we all fail.

not it's not, and he failed already, and so we did as the west

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, butterfly said:

easy to say when it's not your civilians on the front line,

not it's not, and he failed already, and so we did as the west

There would be no civilians on the "front line" if it wasn't for Putin, time you had a reality check and faced the facts.

[butterfly]

6 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

There would be no civilians on the "front line" if it wasn't for Putin

but there is a war and there is a front line, you can't deny that. So calling for military actions when your civilians are not on the front lines is quite easy to do.

Zelensky should be fighting for a peace solution instead of touring world leaders with his passionate Zoom calls.

But I guess acting is easier, and you get standing ovation for your performance while civilians are being attacked.

a real state man find solutions, don't alienate allies with sacrifice or try to act a part.

Edited March 31, 2022 by butterfly

[oldschooler]

6 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Putin is a total liar and cannot be trusted as proven, talks would be total useless as all it would do is give the Russians time to re-arm then renege on the talks. The Russians cannot be seen to have gained anything by this heinous crime.

Just keep on pushing the Russians out of Ukraine, Putin has been totally humiliated and he needs his nose rubbing in it now. 

The future of Europe lies on Zelensky and his brave warriors shoulders, he fails, we all fail.

Ukraine supported by NATO won’t fail. If it does NATO certainly won’t.

Putin (like Xi or trump) a Symptom. 
Russians ( like CCP & US democrats) the Disease. 

Russia’s Lifelong Obsession with “ Strong Leaders” and resultant Communism / Gangsterism / WMD, in Russia & China , has lead us to this point, with Taiwan on the horizon this decade.  
 

Humanity extremely lucky not to have been obliterated in 1980’s or earlier by Soviet belligerence. Moscow & Beijing should have been nuked in 1940’s to snuff out Communism before it obtained nuclear weapons 
 

Of course, now we have other ELE now like Bioweapons, AI, Climate Change, Meteor, Overpopulation. 

[Fester]

42 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Investigate an internet claim? Same thing in my book.

Of course it is.

[Fester]

32 minutes ago, butterfly said:

the solution is quite simple:

1. Change the Ukraine constitution, remove the NATO part, and pledge for a neutral Ukraine

2. NATO and Russia sign an agreement to exclude certain countries from joining

3. Give autonomous region status, not independence, to Russian assets to keep Ukraine whole

4. Zelensky resign and organize new elections, he is burn

Wow! How has this simple solution not been adopted yet? 

[Marble-eye]

11 minutes ago, butterfly said:

but there is a war and there is a front line, you can't deny that. So calling for military actions when your civilians are not on the front lines is quite easy to do.

Zelensky should be fighting for a peace solution instead of touring world leaders with his passionate Zoom calls.

But I guess acting is easier, and you get standing ovation for your performance while civilians are being attacked.

a real state man find solutions, don't alienate allies with sacrifice or try to act a part.

The Russians are liars, nobody in Ukraine should be fighting, why are you not able to realise the fact of what is happening?

I'll try again Putin started this bloody war, no one else, so when the school bully asks for your pocket money, do you a) give it all to him, b) give him some of it and hope he goes away, or c) kick his backside into the middle of next week and there's a good chance he won't come back.

You don't get it, and I suspect you never will get it.

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, butterfly said:

easy to say when it's not your civilians on the front line,

not it's not, and he failed already, and so we did as the west

Ukrainian Civilian Deaths circa 4,000.

Ukrainian Displaced / Refugee Civilians ( by Putin Intent) circa 10 million.

Betting Not One Ukrainian- speaking Civilian would consider Surrender though. Fight to the Death until Russia Leaves.
 

Rancid Russia Broken for Generations from Sanctions & paying Reparations. Then either Free or Much zReduced  around 2050 (from Very  Low Birth Rate).

Having lived & worked in Moscow I used to weep for the great Russian People being Enslaved for last 1000 years, magnificent in their abuse & suffering, hugely betrayed by Leaders …. No Longer. 
 

Ukraine & NATO have Performed Brilliantly against nuclear- armed Russian Evil. Plan to bleed dry Russia going perfectly also.