News Forum - Amidst boycott of Russia, Putin threatens Ukrainian statehood

[oldschooler]

50 minutes ago, Poolie said:

You must do as you see fit.

May I suggest you either say something rational , of substantiated value….or not say anything.

[TWS60]

16 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Your history sucks. UK / British  Empire was not conquered, refused to surrender, fought on alone, won Battle of Britain ( Air), Battle of Atlantic ( Sea)  , North African War ( Land) ; all without US military involved.Yugoslavia was not conquered either.Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland , Switzerland. all neutral / not occupied.Russia would have folded in ‘42 without UK / US materiel & bombing raids…

N. Africa campaign is where the USA waded into the fray with the Brits (and French).  There was an understandable learning curve for the Yanks at first but as a combined force, they helped turn the tide against Rommel, who later got the sack.

GB and Murica, when they put their minds to it, are a force to be reckoned with to this day.  I rather like that arrangement and grimace when I hear chest beating over flags; often from the shallow end of the gene pool.

The spectacle of Trump rallies in recent years, springs to mind.  Awful.  

[Faz]

Stay on topic please without wandering to far down memory lane and history lessons.

Moderator.

[Marble-eye]

On 3/8/2022 at 12:43 AM, joseph said:

Between 1931 and 1934 four million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. The Holodomor, a term derived from the Ukrainian words for hunger (holod) and extermination (mor) was the result of Communists taking the land from independent farmers to create communes. They are being told it will be different this time. Now, I ask with all honesty, what would you do?

Joseph I hope you don't mind me elaborating on your fine post, the horror that was inflicted on the Ukraines at the time is totally unthinkable. Can they ever forgive the Russians for this horrific time in their history, I would think not and it is not surprising by the spirit they are showing against a bigger uglier army.

"The Holodomor, 1932-1933. At the entrance to the Kiev Memorial Park, there is a sculpture of a very thin girl with an extremely sad look, holding several classes of wheat in her hands. Behind her back is the Candle of Remembrance, a monument with details reminiscent of authentic embroidery that can be found on traditional Ukrainian costumes. This is a monument that marks the historical event known as Holodomor (Hladomor). What is Holodomor and what crime does this monument symbolize? At the end of World War I, Ukraine was an independent state, but it was governed by the Soviet Union. In 1919, Ukraine was pressured into joining the Soviet Union. Ukrainians, who then considered themselves a Central European nation like Poland, not an Eastern European nation like Russia, were trying to restore Ukraine's independence and resisted joining the Soviet Union. Not wanting to lose control of Europe's main grain, Stalin resorted to one of the most heinous forms of terror against a nation. In the process of nationalization, he took the grainy land from Ukrainian peasants, and all its yields, creating artificial hunger. The goal of Stalin was to "teach Ukrainians" a lesson so they would no longer oppose Russia. Thus, the nation that produced the most wheat in Europe was left without a crumb of bread. The peak of the Holodomor was in the spring of 1933. In Ukraine, 17 people starved to death every minute, over 1000 died every hour, and almost 24, 500 died every day. People were literally starving to death on the streets. In the emptied Ukrainian villages, Stalin settled the Russian population. During the next census, there was a large population shortage. Therefore, the Soviet government abolished the census, destroyed the census documentation, and had the census-takers shot or sent to the gulag to completely hide the truth. Between 1932-1933, starvation killed between seven and ten million people, more than the Jews during World War II. For Ukrainians, their toxic gas was hunger, their Hitler was Stalin, their holocaust was Holodomor. For Ukrainians, Fascist Berlin was Soviet Moscow, and their concentration camp was the Gulag Archipelago.Today, 28 countries around the world classify the Holodomor as a genocide, and you could not teach lessons about it in school because almost all evidence has been destroyed, and the victims who survived were silenced out of fear for decades not to speak about it. The Holodomor may have temporarily broken the Ukrainian resistance, but it made the desire for Ukraine's independence from Russia eternal."

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Marble-eye said:

Joseph I hope you don't mind me elaborating on your fine post, the horror that was inflicted on the Ukraines at the time is totally unthinkable. Can they ever forgive the Russians for this horrific time in their history, I would think not and it is not surprising by the spirit they are showing against a bigger uglier army.

"The Holodomor, 1932-1933. At the entrance to the Kiev Memorial Park, there is a sculpture of a very thin girl with an extremely sad look, holding several classes of wheat in her hands. Behind her back is the Candle of Remembrance, a monument with details reminiscent of authentic embroidery that can be found on traditional Ukrainian costumes. This is a monument that marks the historical event known as Holodomor (Hladomor). What is Holodomor and what crime does this monument symbolize? At the end of World War I, Ukraine was an independent state, but it was governed by the Soviet Union. In 1919, Ukraine was pressured into joining the Soviet Union. Ukrainians, who then considered themselves a Central European nation like Poland, not an Eastern European nation like Russia, were trying to restore Ukraine's independence and resisted joining the Soviet Union. Not wanting to lose control of Europe's main grain, Stalin resorted to one of the most heinous forms of terror against a nation. In the process of nationalization, he took the grainy land from Ukrainian peasants, and all its yields, creating artificial hunger. The goal of Stalin was to "teach Ukrainians" a lesson so they would no longer oppose Russia. Thus, the nation that produced the most wheat in Europe was left without a crumb of bread. The peak of the Holodomor was in the spring of 1933. In Ukraine, 17 people starved to death every minute, over 1000 died every hour, and almost 24, 500 died every day. People were literally starving to death on the streets. In the emptied Ukrainian villages, Stalin settled the Russian population. During the next census, there was a large population shortage. Therefore, the Soviet government abolished the census, destroyed the census documentation, and had the census-takers shot or sent to the gulag to completely hide the truth. Between 1932-1933, starvation killed between seven and ten million people, more than the Jews during World War II. For Ukrainians, their toxic gas was hunger, their Hitler was Stalin, their holocaust was Holodomor. For Ukrainians, Fascist Berlin was Soviet Moscow, and their concentration camp was the Gulag Archipelago.Today, 28 countries around the world classify the Holodomor as a genocide, and you could not teach lessons about it in school because almost all evidence has been destroyed, and the victims who survived were silenced out of fear for decades not to speak about it. The Holodomor may have temporarily broken the Ukrainian resistance, but it made the desire for Ukraine's independence from Russia eternal."

Oops @Faz posted this before I saw your message, do with it as you deem fit.

[Grant]

54 minutes ago, TWS60 said:

N. Africa campaign is where the USA waded into the fray with the Brits (and French).  There was an understandable learning curve for the Yanks at first but as a combined force, they helped turn the tide against Rommel, who later got the sack.

GB and Murica, when they put their minds to it, are a force to be reckoned with to this day.  I rather like that arrangement and grimace when I hear chest beating over flags; often from the shallow end of the gene pool.

The spectacle of Trump rallies in recent years, springs to mind.  Awful.  

I’m totally anti Trump!

But What happened yesterday on all wars before told Mankind that now we use diplomacy!!

Don’t go down the road of that happened 50 years ago etc .

That is archaic rhetoric and we look to modern society and not ape like brain mentality!!

[Faz]

2 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Oops @Faz posted this before I saw your message, do with it as you deem fit.

Relevant history to the conflict that's taking place now @Marble-eye 

[TWS60]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:13 PM, Grant said:

I’m totally anti Trump!

But What happened yesterday on all wars before told Mankind that now we use diplomacy!!

Don’t go down the road of that happened 50 years ago etc .

That is archaic rhetoric and we look to modern society and not ape like brain mentality!!

No argument from me that diplomacy is (generally) preferable over military conflict.   History is often uncomfortably relevant to current events, but that seems to be undesirable on this thread, so guess we'll have to leave it there.  

To better understand what Putin's bangin' on about as it relates to this thread, spent several hours in the past week poring through the last 30-odd years of history.  DW Doco last night, wasn't sure what to expect but wound up providing a bit more insight into the breakup of USSR relative to Putin's current state of play. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsPHKDuP-Hk