Trying to get a copy of a Thai Birth Certificate.

[Saltire]

A few years ago the wife and I visited the local government office and in 20 minutes, for a small fee, obtained a stamped copy of her ex husbands Death Certificate, Painless, even though he was from a different province. We needed it to get married.

So about a year ago we went to the same office to get a copy of her birth certificate as she has misplaced it.

We got a real runaround from the fairly senior bloke in the amphur. He asked us to come back with no less than 3 neighbours to vouch for her, which we did. He took copies of their IDs and said he would visit each one to verify their/our address. He never showed (no surprise) so now we need to try again. She will need it when I die to apply for 2 UK private widows pensions, so it's important. She also wants to renew her expired passport and my need it for that, (but may not, i'm not sure).

A few of the neighbours hinted that he may have been looking for a 'tip' but the subject of payment was never raised at any point.

So before we go back and try again, I am interested to know if anyone with a Thai family member has done this apparently simple task, and was it a pain or straightforward?

Thanks

Sorry if it's in the wrong forum.

 

 

 

[Faz]

Hi Saltire,
Firstly you don't need a birth certificate to obtain a new Thai Passport, ID card is sufficient.

Re the birth certificate issue, a couple of questions;
1. Did your wife ever have a birth certificate?
2. What is the DOB registered on her ID card.
3. What is the DOB in her Tabien Baan.

Mistakes are common here and it's possible that your wife's birth was never officially registered, or the DOB has been incorrectly copied somewhere down the line hence the Amphoe can't find her birth registration on the database from her ID card.

You cannot obtain 'copies' of birth certificates, but the Amphoe can issue a letter with all the details on as a substitute for the original.

[Saltire]

Resurecting/updating a previous post

So @Fazyou were spot on on all counts (and sorry I missed your reply first time round!).

A month or so ago we went to Pattaya and she got a new passport with no issues.

We went this week to try again for the birth certificate as Covid was over and we'd heard there was a new man in charge as well as many new staff at the amphur.

It took only 5 minutes to confirm she was never oficially registered at birth. Her ID card and Tabian Baan have the same birthdate in May 1980 and I suspect a few strings were pulled at the time to get these.

We suspect this is down to circumstances of her birth. Sadly her mother died minutes after she was born trying to deliver her twin. This left her father to do everything for her from then on, at which, in every respect he failed spetacularly. I never met such an inept, uncaring, selfish tw@t. At the time of her birth he was in Thailand illegally (he was from Myanmar) and probably was afraid to go to the amphur for fear of deportation.

As Faz says, this must be quite common but I know of no process to rectify this situation.

My 2 pension companies confirmed the document was required for her to claim a widows pension. Combined, they add up to about 15k Baht per month for life and I do not want her to miss out so I need to come up an alternative.

I will initally write to both pension providers in the hope they may accept the ID and Passport or if there is something else we can do to confirm her identity now, rather than wait till after I die.

An alternative is to nominate someone else who can be trusted to forward any monies to her. However this has UK tax implications for the nominee, as well as puting them in an inconvenient situation. There is no alternate suitable (i.e. trustworthy) Thai nominee.

Anyone have a suggestion?

Thanks

[Faz]

5 hours ago, Saltire said:

My 2 pension companies confirmed the document was required for her to claim a widows pension. Combined, they add up to about 15k Baht per month for life and I do not want her to miss out so I need to come up an alternative.

A couple of points to pursue.

1. It may still be possible to register your wife's birth and obtain a BC, although a fine for late registration may apply. Have you enquired on that possibility at the Amphoe?

2. You state your wife has a birthdate on her ID, Passport and presumably her Tabien Baan registration.
Is that her actual DOB or a guess. Where did the date come from?
I'm sure if you obtained a letter from the Amphoe confirming her birth was never registered, due to the events you explained at her birth, they would show leniency and with such a letter, prepared to accept her DOB as registered on her ID and Passport.

Like yourself, I've already set up and made arrangements with my private Pension provider for my wife to receive her widow's pension in the event of my demise. I previously sent them copies of her ID card, Tabien Baan, marriage certificate, and her bank account details, to hold on file. I don't recall them requesting her birth certificate. I set up a letter of authority allowing my daughter to deal directly with the pension company on my wife's behalf.

[Saltire]

21 hours ago, Faz said:

A couple of points to pursue.

1. It may still be possible to register your wife's birth and obtain a BC, although a fine for late registration may apply. Have you enquired on that possibility at the Amphoe?

2. You state your wife has a birthdate on her ID, Passport and presumably her Tabien Baan registration.
Is that her actual DOB or a guess. Where did the date come from?
I'm sure if you obtained a letter from the Amphoe confirming her birth was never registered, due to the events you explained at her birth, they would show leniency and with such a letter, prepared to accept her DOB as registered on her ID and Passport.

Like yourself, I've already set up and made arrangements with my private Pension provider for my wife to receive her widow's pension in the event of my demise. I previously sent them copies of her ID card, Tabien Baan, marriage certificate, and her bank account details, to hold on file. I don't recall them requesting her birth certificate. I set up a letter of authority allowing my daughter to deal directly with the pension company on my wife's behalf.

Latest - I have drafted a letter to my pension company offering her ID card, Passport, House Book and wedding certificate as proof of ID, and I explained her circumstances. I don't see why they'd not agree as my other pension company has agreed to the same documents, no birth certificate required.

[SkyDogJack]

Hi,

Thought I'd jump in with some additional information.  My wife and I are applying to bring her daughter to the USA, and we cannot find the original birth certificate.  My stepdaughter has gone to the district office and obtained a certified copy, but it is useless for American immigration, and I suspect for other reasons like benefits, etc.  Why?

The computer-generated copy does not have the date of registration (when the parent registered the birth) block.  That has been eliminated on all official copies and I can say that this is a problem for anyone wanting any visa to come to the USA to visit or otherwise if the birth certificate does not have the date of registration.

Anway, we are sorting out the hiccup now for ourselves and I thought I'd put this information out for the forum.

I have attached a sample of what an original Thai birth certificate looks like.  The block in the lower right-hand corner is missing on the new ones obtained from the district office.  

Good luck...

[Faz]

17 hours ago, SkyDogJack said:

The computer-generated copy does not have the date of registration (when the parent registered the birth) block. 

The block to which you refer, (4.7) is the hospital letter notifying the Amphoe of the birth, not the parent.
In English, it's translated as 'Birth notification acknowledgement receipt'.

It either states 'available' or 'not available' dependant if the hospital even bothered to notify them, or if the parents verbally notified the Amphoe. If the birth wasn't registered, you wouldn't have the birth certificate, or a copy of it.
The block 4.7 to which you refer does not affect a visa application.

[SkyDogJack]

2 hours ago, Faz said:

The block to which you refer, (4.7) is the hospital letter notifying the Amphoe of the birth, not the parent.
In English, it's translated as 'Birth notification acknowledgement receipt'.

It either states 'available' or 'not available' dependant if the hospital even bothered to notify them, or if the parents verbally notified the Amphoe. If the birth wasn't registered, you wouldn't have the birth certificate, or a copy of it.
The block 4.7 to which you refer does not affect a visa application.

Faz,

 

I need an answer or suggestion on how we can resolve this obstacle to satisfy immigration. I respectfully disagree with you regarding American immigration and my stepdaughter's visa.  You are just not correct regarding this specific issue.

The bottom line is regardless of which block you are referring to or who enters it into the system, certified copies of Thai birth certificates today, not the original birth certificate given to the parent no longer have a registration date. My wife's father had her original. We cannot find her daughters original, therefore, we had to get a certified copy.

Without the date the parent notified the Thai government of the birth on the birth certificate, American immigration will not accept the birth certificate as valid.  If you have any idea how we can get a true copy of the original birth certificate, please share. Everything that complicates an immigrant application increases processing time or can result in a denial. Our immigration attorney has been very clear.  Try and get a certified copy of the original, not this new version. It doesn't work and USCIS will reject it.

And, we have had the new version translated both here in America by a licensed translator and in Bangkok into English. The English translations are identical as are the Thai copies. It is does not have the necessary date of notification. I can put both copies of my wife's birth certificate and stepdaughters on the table side by side and compare them. They are different.  Both the Thai and English translation.  They are is no mistaking the difference.  

My stepdaughter and my wife's sister have gone several times to try and get a true copy at the district office, and the Thai government official statement is simple and clear, "NO"! 

PS: My wife has posted this is on her Thai Facebook group and this is a problem other Thai, and their families are having here. This is not an isolated event.  

PPS: Faz, should I move this as a new topic to try and get more members to see this issue for me?

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by SkyDogJack
Spelling

[SkyDogJack]

3 hours ago, Faz said:

The block to which you refer, (4.7) is the hospital letter notifying the Amphoe of the birth, not the parent.
In English, it's translated as 'Birth notification acknowledgement receipt'.

It either states 'available' or 'not available' dependant if the hospital even bothered to notify them, or if the parents verbally notified the Amphoe. If the birth wasn't registered, you wouldn't have the birth certificate, or a copy of it.
The block 4.7 to which you refer does not affect a visa application.

Faz,

Here is the bottom part of the English translation of my stepdaughter's birth certificate compared to my wife's. As you can see, the new birth certificate has blocks 4.5, 4.6 and 4.7.  These are document reference numbers, not dates.

My wife's birth certificate does not even have the same format. Her birth certificate has blocks 5, 6, 7 and 8. Block 5 is the registration date (date of notification).  That is absolutely necessary for USCIS to accept the birth certificate as valid.

Bottom line.  The Thai government changed the format, and this is now a big problem for any Thai wanting to come to the USA for any category of visa, if they don't have their original birth certificate to translate into English.

Any help is appreciated.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by SkyDogJack
Cleanup my post.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, SkyDogJack said:

The bottom line is regardless of which block you are referring to or who enters it into the system, certified copies of Thai birth certificates today, not the original birth certificate given to the parent no longer have a registration date. My wife's father had her original. We cannot find her daughters original, therefore, we had to get a certified copy.

To help with your explanation, I post a copy of a Thai birth certificate and an English translation.
A copy of a Thai birth certificate will contain the exact information as the original.

Note the notification date of the birth appears in the very last box under the registrars acknowledging signature. The actual date of birth appears in 4.1 of baby's details.

Exactly what is missing from your copy?

[Faz]

43 minutes ago, SkyDogJack said:

Any help is appreciated.

Can you send me a scan of the copy birth certificate and the English translation by PM please.

[Faz]

48 minutes ago, SkyDogJack said:

Any help is appreciated.

You have the date of the notification and the registrars' signature.

[SkyDogJack]

6 minutes ago, Faz said:

You have the date of the notification and the registrars' signature.

That is my wife's birth certificate, not her daughters.  They are different formats now.

[SkyDogJack]

12 minutes ago, Faz said:

Can you send me a scan of the copy birth certificate and the English translation by PM please.

Yes, and thanks for your help.

[SkyDogJack]

17 minutes ago, Faz said:

To help with your explanation, I post a copy of a Thai birth certificate and an English translation.
A copy of a Thai birth certificate will contain the exact information as the original.

Note the notification date of the birth appears in the very last box under the registrars acknowledging signature. The actual date of birth appears in 4.1 of baby's details.

Exactly what is missing from your copy?

I'll send in a PM her birth certificate.  The baby's birth is not the issue.  It is the date of notification of the birth.  In the new copies, they don't include that information.  I will send you the exact birth certificate that we got from the district office and the English translation. I think you can see what I am talking about.  Again, thanks for your help Faz.

[SkyDogJack]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

Can you send me a scan of the copy birth certificate and the English translation by PM please.

Faz

A big thank you for taking the time to help me and my family.  Your information was very important and filled in the missing pieces for me.

Blessings, 

Jack

[SkyDogJack]

Hello all,

It has been over a year since I started down this path to bring my stepdaughter to the USA. I thought an update is appropriate.  There may be another expat who will be dealing will be dealing same problem someday.

As I expected, the birth certificate is a problem with USCIS.  They did not even look at all the secondary evidence.  Fortunately, they did not issue "an intent to deny", instead an RFE, "Request for Evidence". 

This is why I hired an immigration attorney.  If doing this by alone, I think it would be game over.

I am not happy with my own immigration system, but I am really not happy with how the Thai government has decided to not include in the new "Bai Rub Rong Kan Kerd" the bottom blocks, especially the bottom right block which contains the registration date.  They have created a problem for their own citizens and families that was not necessary.  

My attorney is in the process of responding to this problem.  She thought that by submitting the secondary evidence up front we would be able to head off this issue.  No such luck.

When I hear back from USCIS and how they are proceeding, I will report back.

Bottom line?  Tell your Thai family "Don't" lose their original birth certificate.  

Wish us luck.

Jack

[MrStretch]

Good advice, Jack.

I had my stepkids' birth certificates translated and certified years ago, in the event I needed them to travel with me for work - which never happened.

My stepdaughter got her USA 10-year tourist visa last year, and I am still mystified as to how.  She is a young, single female and had no job, owns no property, and didn't meet any of the qualifications I would normally think necessary.

She did, however, do a summer of work in the States last year, and promptly returned home after her work and short travel was concluded.

She's in Australia now and after studying and working there a few years, I expect her to make her play for the US as her future home.

I've lived in a lot of countries and am often mystified by what the consular offices are looking for.

[SkyDogJack]

I will continue to update our IR-2 Visa journey for my stepdaughter for those till following.  But first, my wife has passed her U.S. Citizenship interview and is scheduled to take her Oath soon.  That part of this journey is almost complete.

As I last reported, my attorney has now responded to the USCIS RFE.  Ironically, much of what we initially uploaded was uploaded again with a letter from my attorney explaining such.  And we provided even more secondary evidence.  We are now back in the waiting game for USCIS to process the RFE and hopefully approve it so we can move on to the next step at the Dept of State NVC. 

We will see how this goes in that we definitely have an abundance of evidence and documents.  In theory, this should be simple. 

One thing I do know is the importance of having "original" or "certified" copies of all documents we have submitted in my stepdaughter's hands when she goes for her interview.  We know another couple, American husband, Thai (American citizen) wife who forgot to DHL the stepfathers certified divorce and past marriage degree to their daughter in Thailand.  The American embassy consular officer held up her approval until the physical document was in his hands.  Also, it really is important to understand every embassy has different rules regarding interview evidence.  Here is Thailand's embassy webpage.  Best to know it.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/Visa-Reciprocity-and-Civil-Documents-by-Country/Thailand.html

 

Thats it for this update.  

Cheers!

 

 

[MrStretch]

6 hours ago, SkyDogJack said:

  Also, it really is important to understand every embassy has different rules regarding interview evidence.   Best to know it.
 

Great to hear of your wife's milestone in this journey.  Congratulations to her.

The sentence of  yours, that I quoted, is perhaps one of the most confusing for us Westerners, as our countries have the same rules, regardless of which consulate or embassy you visit.

I help my wife, who works with people applying for visas from various countries around the world, where they might be working at the time - all coming to Thailand for exactly the same job with the same employer - and can't count the number of differences we've encountered from one country (that doesn't make use of the evisa) to another.

While I found it frustrating, at the beginning, I've now just come to the conclusion that good organization is just not in the DNA of those that work for this government and I play by their consistently shifting rules, because it's the only way to get things done.

[SkyDogJack]

Update:

My stepdaughter has been approved by USCIS and her case sent to the NVC for the next step in her immigrate application process.  As with USCIS, we need to provide additional evidence regarding her birth certificate.  The NVC is actually a simple process and with a little luck, she will be approved regarding her documents and the case forwarded to the embassy in a few months.  

After that, the embassy will schedule her interview.  If all documents are submitted to their satisfaction, and accepted, then it all gets down to the interview itself.  This is the most critical point in the process, because if the consulate officer decides for any reason to deny the application, the officer can, if desired, get a second opinion from the State Department. However, if, after this point, the denial is upheld, there is no appeal available. The usual path is to start the case over again by refiling the I-130 petition, waiting for approval, and so forth. That process would add 7-8 years to our plans and hopes to bring my stepdaughter to live with us and start her life here in the United States with our family together.  

It will be several months before we know the answer. I will update everyone when we know.

Jack

 

[SkyDogJack]

Final update.  After 18 months on this last part of my family's immigration journey, it has been decided that continuing to pursue bringing my stepdaughter to the Unites States was not in her best interest.

 

We have all concluded that her future opportunities and quality of life will be better served in Thailand than the USA.

 

In retrospect I now realize that this was a path we should have not stepped on to.  The cost and stress over the last 18 months could have been avoided if I could have seen how her future was going to look in the USA compared to Thailand.  Unfortunately, wisdom often takes time and experience to obtain.

 

This decision simply became a matter of where she would be most happy and be able to use her new university degree, get a job and pursue her career.  That answer was clearly in Thailand.  Here in the USA, she would have been lucky to get a job cleaning restrooms in a hotel.

 

Add to that if she moved to the USA, she would have no Thai friends, unable to communicate or drive. She would have been isolated in a totally different culture. Worst of all was all the time and effort to make great grades in school would have been of no value here in the USA.  Her degree, just as her mother's university degree would not be recognized here.

 

It would have been unkind to steal from her the chance to continue to grow into a young adult woman and have a good life with family and friends in her home country.

 

If in 5 or 10 years she has any interest or motivation to come to the USA, she can make that decision.  And, as to her mother and her being together.  We have already talked about her mom, now a U.S. citizen taking extended vacations in Thailand or them meeting to take vacations together.  

 

I will conclude with this comment and my personal observation.  Immigrating to the USA is not always the best or wisest choice.  Many other countries, including Thailand one can actually have a better quality of life than here in the USA if you have been successful in your studies, work and social life.  Add that just being able to practice your religion freely and across your entire country is no small fact to be considered.

 

The USA is my birth home. It is where I grew up and had many successes in my life.  It is where I chose to return because the reason for me to live the rest of my life here had advantages over remaining in Thailand.  

 

That is not the right choice for everyone, including expats and immigrants.  I have learned a lot about American immigration these last five years.  I am happy to share what I can for anyone who wants.

 

Take care....

 

Jack

 

 

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, SkyDogJack said:

Final update.  After 18 months on this last part of my family's immigration journey, it has been decided that continuing to pursue bringing my stepdaughter to the Unites States was not in her best interest.

We have all concluded that her future opportunities and quality of life will be better served in Thailand than the USA.

In retrospect I now realize that this was a path we should have not stepped on to.  The cost and stress over the last 18 months could have been avoided if I could have seen how her future was going to look in the USA compared to Thailand.  Unfortunately, wisdom often takes time and experience to obtain.

This decision simply became a matter of where she would be most happy and be able to use her new university degree, get a job and pursue her career.  That answer was clearly in Thailand.  Here in the USA, she would have been lucky to get a job cleaning restrooms in a hotel.

Add to that if she moved to the USA, she would have no Thai friends, unable to communicate or drive. She would have been isolated in a totally different culture. Worst of all was all the time and effort to make great grades in school would have been of no value here in the USA.  Her degree, just as her mother's university degree would not be recognized here.

It would have been unkind to steal from her the chance to continue to grow into a young adult woman and have a good life with family and friends in her home country.

If in 5 or 10 years she has any interest or motivation to come to the USA, she can make that decision.  And, as to her mother and her being together.  We have already talked about her mom, now a U.S. citizen taking extended vacations in Thailand or them meeting to take vacations together.  

I will conclude with this comment and my personal observation.  Immigrating to the USA is not always the best or wisest choice.  Many other countries, including Thailand one can actually have a better quality of life than here in the USA if you have been successful in your studies, work and social life.  Add that just being able to practice your religion freely and across your entire country is no small fact to be considered.

The USA is my birth home. It is where I grew up and had many successes in my life.  It is where I chose to return because the reason for me to live the rest of my life here had advantages over remaining in Thailand.  

That is not the right choice for everyone, including expats and immigrants.  I have learned a lot about American immigration these last five years.  I am happy to share what I can for anyone who wants.

Take care....

Jack

Very astute post

 

Sometimes we in the West, tend to think "the West is best"

 

And yes, unless it was in a highly specialized field at a top ranked University, her degree is basic worthless in the US

 

I also don't know exactly where you live but if it isn't in a walkable downtown area, there would be isolation and so much would fall on you.

 

I was fortunate in that I live in downtown Vancouver, one of the most Asian populated cities outside of Asia

So my wife's move was pretyy easy.

 

 

 

And you don't even know if her interview would have then granted her a Visa

The US embassy in Bangkok in notoriously tough.

 

My stepson got refused last year. Didn't matter that he was an honor student at Thammasat and would definitely go back for his final year 

Or that his mother has had two 10 year US visas that she has always abided by

 

 

 

You made the right decision 

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, SkyDogJack said:

Final update.  After 18 months on this last part of my family's immigration journey, it has been decided that continuing to pursue bringing my stepdaughter to the Unites States was not in her best interest.

We have all concluded that her future opportunities and quality of life will be better served in Thailand than the USA.

In retrospect I now realize that this was a path we should have not stepped on to.  The cost and stress over the last 18 months could have been avoided if I could have seen how her future was going to look in the USA compared to Thailand.  Unfortunately, wisdom often takes time and experience to obtain.

This decision simply became a matter of where she would be most happy and be able to use her new university degree, get a job and pursue her career.  That answer was clearly in Thailand.  Here in the USA, she would have been lucky to get a job cleaning restrooms in a hotel.

Add to that if she moved to the USA, she would have no Thai friends, unable to communicate or drive. She would have been isolated in a totally different culture. Worst of all was all the time and effort to make great grades in school would have been of no value here in the USA.  Her degree, just as her mother's university degree would not be recognized here.

It would have been unkind to steal from her the chance to continue to grow into a young adult woman and have a good life with family and friends in her home country.

If in 5 or 10 years she has any interest or motivation to come to the USA, she can make that decision.  And, as to her mother and her being together.  We have already talked about her mom, now a U.S. citizen taking extended vacations in Thailand or them meeting to take vacations together.  

I will conclude with this comment and my personal observation.  Immigrating to the USA is not always the best or wisest choice.  Many other countries, including Thailand one can actually have a better quality of life than here in the USA if you have been successful in your studies, work and social life.  Add that just being able to practice your religion freely and across your entire country is no small fact to be considered.

The USA is my birth home. It is where I grew up and had many successes in my life.  It is where I chose to return because the reason for me to live the rest of my life here had advantages over remaining in Thailand.  

That is not the right choice for everyone, including expats and immigrants.  I have learned a lot about American immigration these last five years.  I am happy to share what I can for anyone who wants.

Take care....

Jack

My stepson is in Canada now

He's working at a Thai restaurant in a gap year before he goes back to Bangkok for his Masters at Chulalongkorn University 

 

 

And he's making good money, some shifts $18/hr and some shifts $30/hr as a Jr Chef

 

Soon he will be permanently on $30/hr

 

 

There would be a temptation to stay here in Vancouver but he's on a path after his Masters to get a very good job in Thailand 

 

 

So as you said above and I agree......"The West is not always the best"

 

 

 

Good luck to all