Who Owns Space?

[Shade_Wilder]

 

Hello fellow Space Junkies!

 

Yes, I started the other Space thread (Humanity's Next Leap Of Space Knowledge) in this section, but this is different. The other thread, which is fascinating if I do say so myself, is regarding scientific advances and other 'Way Cool' space stuff; this is more of a regulatory issue.

 

Who owns Space?

 

A seemingly simple question, but one with profound implications for humanity's future (those who don't really believe in Humanity's future, see the Post Script).

 

Seriously, who owns Space? Who owns inner Earth Orbital space where most of our satellites function? Who owns the area of Earth's immediate exo-skin where Geosynchronous Satellites fly? Who owns the Moon? Who owns any passing comet/meteor? Who owns Mars? Who owns Asteroids in our Asteroid Belt which may contain trillions and trillions (literally) of dollars worth of minerals? 

 

The short answer is that there is an International Treaty governing this, but it is deeply flawed. It is flawed as it speaks to high-sounding principles, but as there are no management, adjudication or enforcement mechanisms, it is mainly erudite words. If China creates a Lunar Base in five years time, do they 'own' the dirt (Regolith, when on the moon) underneath? Do they own the entire Moon? If so, where do they register their ownership? Where is the Solar System's Land Registry Office and who mans/pays for it? What Legal Code does it follow and in which language? If another party disputes the Regolith claim, what Court do they go to in order to have redress? And, how and by who is that judgement enforced?

 

These seemingly mundane questions are already coming into focus (see C/Net article, link below) in 2022 and will grow exponentially over the next few years and decades.

 

My thoughts on this matter are that it is one of the key 'Macro-Human' issues (along with Climate Change, Species Extinction, and others) that needs to brought to the forefront of international politics quite quickly. As the C/Net article points out, things are getting crowded in 'inner Space' and the problem will worsen exponentially in the coming years. Humanity has, on rare occasions, come together to deal with issues on a Planetary scale (the Ozone/CFC Treaty as one example) when it is in all our best interests to do so, and that is certainly the case here. The alternative is unregulated expansion of our human presence into inner space and beyond which will inevitably lead to conflict; witness the recent dust up between China and Elon Musk's satellites. Further, do we want unbridled expansion into space? The historical record says 'no'; ask an Australian Aboriginal or a Native North American how unbridled expansion worked for them. Finally, Humanity needs some kind of Code of Conduct governing our expansion to the cosmos. We have the opportunity to leave behind a great deal of 'Stupid' as we reach for the stars; wouldn't it be nice if we actually did that?

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

Are we as a species capable of managing our ascent to Space, or are we going to 'wing it'?

 

What actions are needed to do this right?

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/in-2022-the-new-space-race-will-get-more-heated-crowded-and-dangerous/

	In 2022, the new space race will get more heated, crowded and dangerous The number of active satellites has more than quadrupled in the last decade, and the race to space is only getting started. www.cnet.com



 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Outer_Space_Treaty_parties.svg/1200px-Outer_Space_Treaty_parties.svg.png

Outer Space Treaty - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org



 

https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/outerspacetreaty.html

Outer Space Treaty - UNOOSA States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. www.unoosa.org



PS There are some who argue that Humanity doesn't have much of a future due to our mismanagement of our environment, etc. I disagree. I think Humanity will somehow 'muddle through', although it won't always be pretty. However, if you don't think Humanity will 'muddle through', why are you reading this? Why aren't you out raping and pillaging if it doesn't matter? In all honesty, I don't think we are all going to perish, and neither do you.

 

 

 

 

[AussieBob]

We will 'wing it' - as we always have.  Because we cannot be trusted and we know it.  The resultant disputes over territory will be resolved through the same old methods - conflict (including war) and diplomacy. 

Does USA own the Moon?  It was the first to land there. Right now, no one cares - so it is not an issue.  If China sends a bunch of people to colonise Mars - does it own Mars? 

Like Antarctica - it will all be amicably resolved under an overall 'agreement' - but only while there is no conflicting desires and needs.  If/when USA sends a colony to Mars and China disagrees because they claim ownership - then things will be sorted out one way or the other, using those same old methods.

Any UN type agreement will always be subjected to the internal polices and manipulation of those running any organisation like the UN.  Just look at the history of the UN Human Rights Committee - there is no way China or USA will ever accept what they decide is 'right' (and I agree with both of them). 

[Shade_Wilder]

There are a few questions that I should have asked in my OP, but lets just point at the lack of coffee and move on...

Any Sailors/Mariners among TT members?

Could, with some modifications, Maritime Law and the international regulatory infrastructure of Maritime Affairs be utilized in Space? Do these systems function effectively? Clearly you couldn't just apply it straight on, but are there aspects which could be applied in Space? What are they (generally speaking)? I think that this is particularly pertinent as in almost every Sci-Fi book about Space travel, Naval terminology is used suggesting that this is the proper model to utilize.

Any Pilots/Airline people among TT members?

Could, with some modifications, the international regulatory infrastructure of air travel/air freight be utilized in Space? Do these systems function effectively?  Clearly you couldn't just apply it straight on, but are there aspects which could be applied in Space? What are they (generally speaking)?

In both cases above, we (humanity) have a working system that seems to manage things properly; as a firm believer in the KISS principle, could we not just alter a few things and use what we already have?

Apologies to those who actually know about these (likely simple) questions, but...

When you don't know, ask.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Shade_Wilder
added question; need more coffee!

[Smithydog]

Any responsible set of rules/treaty will hopefully include responsibility for all the junk left out in space. Humans for years have polluted the oceans with their garbage and risks in space are increased as our entry into it creates new forms of pollution. Already dodging of space debris is occurring!

https://www.space.com/space-station-dodges-pegasus-rocket-space-debris

Who has the rights to the moon as an example of an object in space?

Well the first human-made object to touch the Moon was the Soviet Union's Luna 2, on 13 September 1959. It would be another 10 years before a human being actually stepped on it. Does landing something on it qualify as "ownership"?

Explorers of the past discovered and named things "they" found, often claiming ownership despite other cultures already being there. If Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth and hence the first to see it or "discover" it, and we all being linked by decent to them, is it now owned by us all?

[Smithydog]

 

Some further thoughts....

Our "discovered" Moon has been called different things by people past.

“The word moon can be traced to the word mōna, an Old English word from medieval times. Mōna shares its origins with the Latin words metri, which means to measure, and mensis, which means month.”

https://www.space.com/curious-kids-why-is-the-moon-called-the-moon.html

It wasn't until Galileo’s discovery of multiple "moons" around Jupiter that we started to really name "Moons".

So I don't think we can really use naming conventions or discovery to support ownership. What happens if an object visible in the night sky tonight, isn't so next month but is from another country? Does that imply a new discovery or rediscovery and new rights attained?

In my opinion space should be declared free and open with no claim by any country allowed. The Earth rotates so patches of space are different. Hardly an environment for calculating "10 million mile limits" etc!

Define the boundary of space and anything above that is not ownable or claimable. Mining rights for any celestial bodies are, too me, a long way off for any worthwhile discussion as we can't even yet sustain a small operation on a fixed point like the moon to understand what that will really look like.

After all, we may just be trying to claim something an extraterrestrial race has already claimed!

On a side note. If the moon was divided, it would be an interesting dialogue amongst ideologies to see who gets the "dark side" and who gets the "light side".

 

[Shade_Wilder]

13 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Any responsible set of rules/treaty will hopefully include responsibility for all the junk left out in space. Humans for years have polluted the oceans with their garbage and risks in space are increased as our entry into it creates new forms of pollution. Already dodging of space debris is occurring!

https://www.space.com/space-station-dodges-pegasus-rocket-space-debris

Who has the rights to the moon as an example of an object in space?

Well the first human-made object to touch the Moon was the Soviet Union's Luna 2, on 13 September 1959. It would be another 10 years before a human being actually stepped on it. Does landing something on it qualify as "ownership"?

Explorers of the past discovered and named things "they" found, often claiming ownership despite other cultures already being there. If Adam and Eve were the first people on Earth and hence the first to see it or "discover" it, and we all being linked by decent to them, is it now owned by us all?

An excellent point about Space Junk, and one that may well be our space salvation.

Given the near misses that we have seen in the last few years (China and Elon Musk as I noted in my OP, for example) and that the debris is piling up at a huge and increasing rate, a catastrophic (but hopefully not quite cataclysmic) accident which damages many satellites might be the thing we need.

Yes, it is an old, tired adage, but every crisis is an opportunity.

If/when there are serious collisions in near-space and we lose a few billion dollar satellites, that could well be the catalyst which gets humanity to properly regulate the area. Remember we set new oil-tanker safety parameters after oil-spills, we set new nuclear safety parameters after Three-Mile Island and Chernobyl, they set new drinking water regulations in the US after lead pipes in Flint, Michigan, etc., etc., etc.

Something tells me that a good accident might be quite helpful.

As to the idea that everyone owns the Moon because of Adam and Eve; it sounds 'Groovy, Man!' and 'Far Out!', but isn't quite a workable framework for future activities. 

[KaptainRob]

Territorial rights may eventually be assigned to our Moon and other planets in much the same was as polar regions are divided. 

Dividing up space would be as impossible as policing of the high seas has proven although I could quite imagine near space having to be regulated in the near future.  Garbage gobbling spacecraft needed to remove debris or redundant satellites and a United Space Nations Council to approve new launches and space/orbit leases.

[Smithydog]

47 minutes ago, KaptainRob said:

  Garbage gobbling spacecraft needed to remove debris or redundant satellites and a United Space Nations Council to approve new launches and space/orbit leases.

Sounds about Right Kaptain!

I read this article and was surprised how many pieces of debris etc is already there. Must make it fun to chart a course to avoid! Looks like a real life version of space invaders!

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06170-1

[KaptainRob]

^ An interesting article.  To the layman (such as me) the graphics may look worrying.

Space is crowded but in a very unique way unlike ocean navigation to which I'm accustomed.

Ships at sea, as of now, looks crowded in graphical form, but it's not really >

20,000 objects in the vastness of near-space is a lot, especially given the speeds they travel at.  I don't think I'll risk going up there anytime though it's likely safer than the roads in Thailand. 

[oldschooler]

Whoever Holds Space Owns Space. Disputes Settled by War. same as Earth.

[Shade_Wilder]

There are some interesting points of view above regarding future ownership of the Cosmos, and the question of earth's 'inner space/satellite routes' is already a very serious issue that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I think we are going to have to permit private ownership of at least some land/resources in our solar system, and we will likely need to make some decisions sooner rather than later; issues as complex as these often take a decade or more to reach an agreement and it'll be on our collective plates before we know it.

I think we are moving into the next phase of Space exploration and development, and we will need to alter the parameters of our risk/reward systems to take advantage of it.

The early days of Space were pretty much exclusively the realm of Governments, and that was a good thing; only governments had the resources to set up basic infrastructure and get things moving, but we are now shifting to the private sector and we need to accommodate different circumstances.

Is shifting to the private sector a good thing? I think the historical record shows it is. Two examples; we saw governments assist greatly in the early days of air travel by building airports, creating air traffic control systems, safety standards, etc. Then, with deregulation of the industry, we saw the rapid commercialization of air travel for the masses; my own life would certainly be very different if it had never occurred, and that goes for everyone reading this. Another great example is telecommunications and the Web. In the olden days, governments controlled the telephone companies and they did some of the hard work of developing an industry and building infrastructure, but they were slow, clunky dinosaurs. The de-regulation of telecommunications saw the cost of phone calls plummet and expand globally, and that also set the stage for the explosion of the Net; I couldn't live without it, could you?

Simply put, it is time to shift to the private sector for the use of Space (while maintaining a regulatory role for governments/international bodies). And, to do that we need to have a potential financial reward to encourage investment and encourage/reward risk; the proverbial 'best and the brightest' might be willing to work for a government at 35,000$ a year and two weeks vacation in Blackpool in a nascent industry, but to attract the best in our current climate, you need the power of private sector compensation.

Love them, like them or perhaps feel indifferent towards them, companies like Space X, Amazon, Virgin Galactic, Boeing and similar are going to lead humanity to the stars. I really, really hope they don't screw it up.

Below are a couple of articles with different points of view regarding the future of Space.

https://www.space.com/solar-system-belongs-to-us-all

https://www.ispionline.it/en/pubblicazione/evolution-space-economy-role-private-sector-and-challenges-europe-28604

https://futurism.com/private-companies-not-governments-are-shaping-the-future-of-space-exploration

[Smithydog]

Last night I asked the opinion of a Martian I was having a drink with in the local bar. He offered his services to clean the Earth's orbit up a bit in exchange for a few cows to experiment on.

Sadly in the world of reality, we can't even fix our differences on the planet let alone discuss new areas in space. We are more inclined to argue than resolve.

Its only our arrogance as a race and the lust for power from too many that assumes we have any rights beyond the boundaries of our own planet.

What if that scene in "Men in Black" was not fictional. Are we just "marbles" in someone else's game?

[DesperateOldHand]

33 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Last night I asked the opinion of a Martian I was having a drink with in the local bar. He offered his services to clean the Earth's orbit up a bit in exchange for a few cows to experiment on.

Sadly in the world of reality, we can't even fix our differences on the planet let alone discuss new areas in space. We are more inclined to argue than resolve.

Its only our arrogance as a race and the lust for power from too many that assumes we have any rights beyond the boundaries of our own planet.

What if that scene in "Men in Black" was not fictional. Are we just "marbles" in someone else's game?

There's a wealth of material regarding this long studied/debated subject matter.

The planet, and it's inhabitants are the ones being looked after for future use. 

The suggestion that all life and consciousness was, in one manner or another, planted or developed here by distant entities.

Edited January 7, 2022 by DesperateOldHand

[Rookiescot]

China owns it.

They have an old map which clearly shows they own everything and at the time no-one argued about the map so now its theirs.

Just like the south China sea.

[Shade_Wilder]

Hmm... some different ideas here.

Below is a link to a DW story that explores some other possibilities.

What I think will be the most likeliest eventually, at least outside of the immediate area surrounding Earth, is a simple 'I was here first!' and hope that the bad guys don't use force. And, they might not; although humanity does have moments where you have to wonder how we ever made it down from the trees, there are also times when everyone sees the benefits of just stepping back. 

What are the potential stakes? This is where it gets very interesting; there is a vast amount of wealth out there, and much of human history and exploration has been somewhat based on acquiring cold hard cash.

(graphic from the DW story, link below)

That's a lot of cash and a lot of profit. A lot lot.

Somehow Space Exploration doesn't seem as expensive as it used to be, does it?

I only hope that I live to see at least the beginnings of the race.

https://www.dw.com/en/who-owns-space-a-guy-called-dennis/a-41093674

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Shade_Wilder

[Vince]

On 1/3/2022 at 3:25 PM, Shade_Wilder said:

Hello fellow Space Junkies!

 

Yes, I started the other Space thread (Humanity's Next Leap Of Space Knowledge) in this section, but this is different. The other thread, which is fascinating if I do say so myself, is regarding scientific advances and other 'Way Cool' space stuff; this is more of a regulatory issue.

 

Who owns Space?

 

A seemingly simple question, but one with profound implications for humanity's future (those who don't really believe in Humanity's future, see the Post Script).

 

Seriously, who owns Space? Who owns inner Earth Orbital space where most of our satellites function? Who owns the area of Earth's immediate exo-skin where Geosynchronous Satellites fly? Who owns the Moon? Who owns any passing comet/meteor? Who owns Mars? Who owns Asteroids in our Asteroid Belt which may contain trillions and trillions (literally) of dollars worth of minerals? 

 

The short answer is that there is an International Treaty governing this, but it is deeply flawed. It is flawed as it speaks to high-sounding principles, but as there are no management, adjudication or enforcement mechanisms, it is mainly erudite words. If China creates a Lunar Base in five years time, do they 'own' the dirt (Regolith, when on the moon) underneath? Do they own the entire Moon? If so, where do they register their ownership? Where is the Solar System's Land Registry Office and who mans/pays for it? What Legal Code does it follow and in which language? If another party disputes the Regolith claim, what Court do they go to in order to have redress? And, how and by who is that judgement enforced?

 

These seemingly mundane questions are already coming into focus (see C/Net article, link below) in 2022 and will grow exponentially over the next few years and decades.

 

My thoughts on this matter are that it is one of the key 'Macro-Human' issues (along with Climate Change, Species Extinction, and others) that needs to brought to the forefront of international politics quite quickly. As the C/Net article points out, things are getting crowded in 'inner Space' and the problem will worsen exponentially in the coming years. Humanity has, on rare occasions, come together to deal with issues on a Planetary scale (the Ozone/CFC Treaty as one example) when it is in all our best interests to do so, and that is certainly the case here. The alternative is unregulated expansion of our human presence into inner space and beyond which will inevitably lead to conflict; witness the recent dust up between China and Elon Musk's satellites. Further, do we want unbridled expansion into space? The historical record says 'no'; ask an Australian Aboriginal or a Native North American how unbridled expansion worked for them. Finally, Humanity needs some kind of Code of Conduct governing our expansion to the cosmos. We have the opportunity to leave behind a great deal of 'Stupid' as we reach for the stars; wouldn't it be nice if we actually did that?

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

Are we as a species capable of managing our ascent to Space, or are we going to 'wing it'?

 

What actions are needed to do this right?

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/in-2022-the-new-space-race-will-get-more-heated-crowded-and-dangerous/

	In 2022, the new space race will get more heated, crowded and dangerous The number of active satellites has more than quadrupled in the last decade, and the race to space is only getting started. www.cnet.com



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Outer_Space_Treaty_parties.svg/1200px-Outer_Space_Treaty_parties.svg.png

Outer Space Treaty - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org



https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/outerspacetreaty.html

Outer Space Treaty - UNOOSA States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. www.unoosa.org



PS There are some who argue that Humanity doesn't have much of a future due to our mismanagement of our environment, etc. I disagree. I think Humanity will somehow 'muddle through', although it won't always be pretty. However, if you don't think Humanity will 'muddle through', why are you reading this? Why aren't you out raping and pillaging if it doesn't matter? In all honesty, I don't think we are all going to perish, and neither do you.

Space is a Hobbsean world where the Strong dominate, and life is a war of all against all. 

In other worlds, China vs the US vs Russia vs India vs Japan vs Elon Musk 

[Rain]

On 1/7/2022 at 4:32 AM, Rookiescot said:

China owns it.

They have an old map which clearly shows they own everything and at the time no-one argued about the map so now its theirs.

Just like the south China sea.

Best brush up on your Mandarin, Rook......

[Cabra]

No one owns space but that won't stop the human race from working diligently trying to ruin it...