News Forum - Is the new Boeing 737 Max safe to fly? A new book makes you wonder.

[Soidog]

8 hours ago, JohninDublin said:

I watched a UK Channel 4 doc on this: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/boeings-killer-plane-what-went-wrong I don't know how it compares with the Netflix doc, but the "takeaway" I got from this, was that a senior exec at Boeing, in order to make the plane more attractive to buyers, promised that clients would nit need to retrain pilots on simulators. They had gone so far as to offer a $1 mill refund on every plane purchased if they broke that promise. 

Over the years, the Aviation Industry in the US have lobbied the FAA to be increasingly allowed to self-certify the safety of the planes manufactured. The doc that I saw, suggested that the ability to self-certify with the possible risk of having to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for simulator training penalties, was a conflict of interest too far for Boeing.

Yes, in the case of the 737-max, that was the main driver. Airbus had launched a fuel efficient aircraft and Boeing needed to respond. They attached new and bigger/more efficient engines which changed the flight characteristics and required MCAS to help the pilot. Had they been unable to convince the FAA that this was just the same as previous 737’s, Clients would have to retrain their pilots at significant cost. So they essentially “hid” MCAS from the FAA and pilots in order to avoid training costs and get the aircraft to market. The Netflix documentary then looked at how a culture which allows aircraft systems to be hidden from pilots could be allowed to develop at Boeing. The suggestion was that this resulted from the purchase of McDonald Douglas and the influence their culture had on the merged company. Scary stuff to be honest. I take at least 15-20 flights a year and many are Boeing aircraft. 

[CamPat]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

Wrong. The gold standard airlines all conducted specialized simulator training for this plane. Another reason I don’t fly Air Shithole ! 

You obviously have not read the details of the max -8 by investigative Journalist Dominic Gates of the Seattle Times who followed every detail right from the start of the Problems. Try again.

[oldschooler]

9 minutes ago, CamPat said:

You obviously have not read the details of the max -8 by investigative Journalist Dominic Gates of the Seattle Times who followed every detail right from the start of the Problems. Try again.

Uninterested in that Detail. Have a Life to get on with. Top Down Big Picture Guy here. Drill Down Guy only for Work or Property or Family stuff.
 

Do however respect and rely on your & others valid opinions educating me though but I stand by my Detailed “avoid shit airlines” travel strategy. 

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Surely any “simulator training penalties” are just illegal & practice stupid & also airline safety ultimate business.

I don't know about the legality of these, but it was an agreement initiated by Boeing. I am not sure that if Boeing were to say, "We are so confident that Pilots will not need simulator retraining, that we will give a $1 mill refund for every plane purchased if we are wrong" it can be illegal.

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

Yes, in the case of the 737-max, that was the main driver. Airbus had launched a fuel efficient aircraft and Boeing needed to respond. They attached new and bigger/more efficient engines which changed the flight characteristics and required MCAS to help the pilot. Had they been unable to convince the FAA that this was just the same as previous 737’s, Clients would have to retrain their pilots at significant cost. So they essentially “hid” MCAS from the FAA and pilots in order to avoid training costs and get the aircraft to market. The Netflix documentary then looked at how a culture which allows aircraft systems to be hidden from pilots could be allowed to develop at Boeing. The suggestion was that this resulted from the purchase of McDonald Douglas and the influence their culture had on the merged company. Scary stuff to be honest. I take at least 15-20 flights a year and many are Boeing aircraft. 

That's pretty much what was said in the C4 doc, though it never went into any involvement by McD Douglas.

[Tim_Melb]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

Uninterested in that Detail. Have a Life to get on with. Top Down Big Picture Guy here. Drill Down Guy only for Work or Property or Family stuff.
 

Do however respect and rely on your & others valid opinions educating me though but I stand by my Detailed “avoid shit airlines” travel strategy. 

Yet you are happy to make derogatory statements about Malaysian Airlines based on them having an aircraft shot down in a route that was being used by most of the "big airlines" that you recommend and another where it has become clear that a long serving and well regarded pilot appears to have become unhinged and committed a murder suicide. 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

A former high school mate of mine is a 737 First Officer with Ryanair, he told me once maintenance staff used an ice bag to lower the temperature of malfunctioning temperature sensor and bring it within parameters thus avoiding the plane from acting up…

 

Theres very few airlines I wouldn’t fly. Thinking non European airlines are bad is just white prejudice. 

[Poolie]

I had several aviators from around the world used to come in my bar in China. Their tales of Chinese Air Traffic Control were hair raising. The military controls upwards of 75% of Chinese airspace.

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

27 minutes ago, Poolie said:

I had several aviators from around the world used to come in my bar in China. Their tales of Chinese Air Traffic Control were hair raising. The military controls upwards of 75% of Chinese airspace.

You should tell me about that bar, I'll visit :P

[Poolie]

59 minutes ago, Lyp14 [ctxa] said:

You should tell me about that bar, I'll visit :P

Ah I sold it two years ago, or I would have.

[Fester]

Wouldn't be safe if I was the pilot!

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

Yet you are happy to make derogatory statements about Malaysian Airlines based on them having an aircraft shot down in a route that was being used by most of the "big airlines" that you recommend and another where it has become clear that a long serving and well regarded pilot appears to have become unhinged and committed a murder suicide. 

Losing two aircraft IS pretty careless. 

MA appalling management culture of incompetence & carelessness exposed. 

remind me again what death cult that lunatic pilot was “inspired” by and that it’s unfair to “profile”.….well life ain’t fair and people will be privately judged individually always, or in this case, understandably, as a group.

didn’t the gold standard airlines STOP flying over that war zone, as soon as it was declared / known  ? 

[oldschooler]

6 hours ago, Lyp14 [ctxa] said:

A former high school mate of mine is a 737 First Officer with Ryanair, he told me once maintenance staff used an ice bag to lower the temperature of malfunctioning temperature sensor and bring it within parameters thus avoiding the plane from acting up…

Theres very few airlines I wouldn’t fly. Thinking non European airlines are bad is just white prejudice. 

Read. My. Post. Stow your “ racist” nonsense and stated lack of any flight selection criteria. I Would not fly SE Europe or US airlines (nor Ryan Air). Happy to fly great airlines from civilized advanced East Asian & Arabian Gulf nations.

May I NOT please fly Malaysian Airlines or YemenAir though….if that’s all right with you. YOU can of course …..

Be my guest if you want to risk YOUR life by flying ShiteAir.
Epitaph: “Had No Flight Standards but Wasn’t Racist”.

[Tim_Melb]

3 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Losing two aircraft IS pretty careless. 

MA appalling management culture of incompetence & carelessness exposed. 

remind me again what death cult that lunatic pilot was “inspired” by and that it’s unfair to “profile”.….well life ain’t fair and people will be privately judged individually always, or in this case, understandably, as a group.

didn’t the gold standard airlines STOP flying over that war zone, as soon as it was declared / known  ? 

I will ignore your stupid comments about cults. 

The evidence of the flight path and course charges etc. Clearly indicate that the flight as under control all the way until it ran out of fuel and went down. So given that the plane was flown intentionally out into the Indian Ocean what else do you call it but a murder suicide? And since people that are well regarded and seem perfectly stable don't do that sort of thing when behaving normally he clearly had some sort of psychological breakdown. 

And yes ALL major airlines were flying through the Ukraine's airspace when the MA flight was shot down it was regarded at the time that by maintaining a high altitude that commercial aircraft were to high to be exposed to any danger as the separatist rebels were not supposed to have Russian Book missile launchers (which they didn't the book was Russian with insignia removed sound familiar). 

[oldschooler]

21 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

I will ignore your stupid comments about cults. 

The evidence of the flight path and course charges etc. Clearly indicate that the flight as under control all the way until it ran out of fuel and went down. So given that the plane was flown intentionally out into the Indian Ocean what else do you call it but a murder suicide? And since people that are well regarded and seem perfectly stable don't do that sort of thing when behaving normally he clearly had some sort of psychological breakdown. 

And yes ALL major airlines were flying through the Ukraine's airspace when the MA flight was shot down it was regarded at the time that by maintaining a high altitude that commercial aircraft were to high to be exposed to any danger as the separatist rebels were not supposed to have Russian Book missile launchers (which they didn't the book was Russian with insignia removed sound familiar). 

MH370 clearly a planned act of a terrorist lunatic “misinterpreting” his death cult manual which does expressly sanction killing “unbelievers”; disproportionate incidents of “mental illness” quite common there you know.

[KT50]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:48 PM, CamPat said:

I heard that from another Cargo 737 max 8 pilot, too. As long as you havn't crashed you feel save. Good luck. I'm never stepping into one of these potentioal flying coffins in my life.

Yes, great choice.  Freedom is a beautiful thing.  Again planes are packed, so more room for my kids and I to go on vacation.  Thank you. 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

10 minutes ago, KT50 said:

Yes, great choice.  Freedom is a beautiful thing.  Again planes are packed, so more room for my kids and I to go on vacation.  Thank you. 

Yes, more freedom to kick it too lol...

In all fairness, I guess once regulators (not Boeing) say the Max is fit to fly, I guess it will be safe just like any other aircraft. 

Not like I care anyway, as I've never flown in a Boeing plane, as I am an European, with family working in Airbus, and very proud of European planes. Not giving one cent to the Yanks.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Lyp14 [ctxa]