After the Biden-Putin summit, Russia expects urgent talks with the US regarding Ukraine.

[Freeduhdumb]

Crimea never needed to be taken, it was already a pre-existing strategic military location. This crucial military presence has always been maintained. The annexation in 2014 of Crimea, was a natural consequence and result of the Coup de Tat by the west of Kiev. The ethnic Russian population naturally and overwhelmingly voted for the annexation. The history of this being a necessary base operations for the Russian naval forces in the Black Sea is well known. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base

I can't really agree with your "bloody mindedness" characterization. If Putin had wanted the Donbass he would have taken it already. He has remained quite reserved on this... see my previous explanation on this point. However, if NATO continues their expansionist policies and Washington steps up with any additional serious military hardware to the Ukrainian military, then all options are back on the table, and he would be well within his right to respond to that added existential threat mounting on his borders. The analogy is Cuba. When the Soviet Union was amassing weapons of mass destruction there, the U.S. naturally responded to that threat and at that time cooler heads prevailed and the Soviets withdrew. If the NeoCons in America get what they want, which is war, things will get very ugly. The Chinese have already indicated they will have Russia's back. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Freeduhdumb
Spelling Correction

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Crimea never needed to be taken, it was already a pre-existing strategic military location. This crucial military presence has always been maintained. The annexation in 2014 of Crimea, was a natural consequence and result of the Coup de Tat by the west of Kiev. The ethnic Russian population naturally and overwhelmingly voted for the annexation. The history of this being a necessary base operations for the Russian naval forces in the Black Sea is well known. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base

I can't really agree with your "bloody mindedness" characterization. If Putin had wanted the Donbass he would have taken it already. He has remained quite reserved on this... see my previous explanation on this point. However, if NATO continues their expansionist policies and Washington steps up with any additional serious military hardware to the Ukrainian military, then all options are back on the table, and he would be well within his right to respond to that added existential threat mounting on his borders. The analogy is Cuba. When the Soviet Union was amassing weapons of mass destruction there, the U.S. naturally responded to that threat and at that time cooler heads prevailed and the Soviets withdrew. If the NeoCons in America get what they want, which is war, things will get very ugly. The Chinese have already indicated they will have Russia's back. 

Your first post sounded credible but this not so much.

NATO expands geographically by the addition of new member states but does it not have "expansionist policies" per se. The EU, however, hoping to expand east, managed to interfere enough to pressure a reaction from Russia and started the break up of the Ukraine. 

Cuba is a poor analogy given, the long history of Russian and Soviet influence in the Crimea.

 

[Freeduhdumb]

5 hours ago, Fester said:

Your first post sounded credible but this not so much.

NATO expands geographically by the addition of new member states but does it not have "expansionist policies" per se. The EU, however, hoping to expand east, managed to interfere enough to pressure a reaction from Russia and started the break up of the Ukraine. 

Cuba is a poor analogy given, the long history of Russian and Soviet influence in the Crimea.

 

Not credible... really? How would you define the expansion of NATO encircling Russia? And... you missed the bit about who actually started the "break up" of Ukraine... it wasn't Russia.

expansionism: noun

A nation's practice or policy of territorial or economic expansion.

A policy of (territorial) expansion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansionism

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Freeduhdumb
Grammar correction additional content.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Not credible... really? How would you define the expansion of NATO encircling Russia? And... you missed the bit about who actually started the "break up" of Ukraine... it wasn't Russia.

expansionism: noun

A nation's practice or policy of territorial or economic expansion.

A policy of (territorial) expansion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansionism

Be it by accident or design, you are missing or ignoring my points completely. NATO is not a country and due to the geographical location of its members it certainly cannot "encircle" Russia. You are making stuff up.

[Freeduhdumb]

2 hours ago, Fester said:

Be it by accident or design, you are missing or ignoring my points completely. NATO is not a country and due to the geographical location of its members it certainly cannot "encircle" Russia. You are making stuff up.

I haven't ignored your points... you simply don't like my refutation of your points. In the image, the blue countries do nearly encircle Russia. Not a complete 360 degree radius, but the various missile systems in those countries in effect encircle Russia... Yes they do. And don't forget, the sea carriers a lot of military hardware complete with nuclear missile systems that fill in the gaps... it all amounts to ever increasing existential threat. NATO is an anachronism... yet continues to expand. NATO is a post WWII relic. Answer this question for me. Why does a treaty organization need an ever expanding military/military capability? Russian aggression? Again, it was Washington that kept pushing for regime change in Ukraine and has been the initial saber rattler. Putin has only ever responded to the ever increasing threat. The ulterior motives by the West are clear... your simply choosing to deny what is actually going on here. Go back to my original post regarding what could have been done from the start if the West actually wanted peace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

Edited December 15, 2021 by Freeduhdumb
Grammar correction additional content.

[Fester]

9 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I haven't ignored your points... you simply don't like my refutation of your points. In the image, the blue countries do nearly encircle Russia. Not a complete 360 degree radius, but the various missile systems in those countries in effect encircle Russia... Yes they do. And don't forget, the sea carriers a lot of military hardware complete with nuclear missile systems that fill in the gaps... it all amounts to ever increasing existential threat. NATO is an anachronism... yet continues to expand. NATO is a post WWII relic. Answer this question for me. Why does a treaty organization need an ever expanding military/military capability? Russian aggression? Again, it was Washington that kept pushing for regime change in Ukraine and has been the initial saber rattler. Putin has only ever responded to the ever increasing threat. The ulterior motives by the West are clear... your simply choosing to deny what is actually going on here. Go back to my original post regarding what could have been done from the start if the West actually wanted peace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_NATO

You have ignored my points but now you add even more spurious rubbish by putting up this silly map whIch only shows N. America and parts of Europe while omitting most of the rest of the world and Russia! It shows nothing. Your comment about global naval nuclear assets is complete guesswork. NATO was created as a common defence organisation and has expanded by adding member countries but not so much via military capability. You were talking NATO before...not the USA....you add in and change the goal posts to try to suit your argument. Boring.

Of course Putin doesn't want NATO or the EU on his doorstep. 

[Freeduhdumb]

44 minutes ago, Fester said:

You have ignored my points but now you add even more spurious rubbish by putting up this silly map whIch only shows N. America and parts of Europe while omitting most of the rest of the world and Russia! It shows nothing. Your comment about global naval nuclear assets is complete guesswork. NATO was created as a common defence organisation and has expanded by adding member countries but not so much via military capability. You were talking NATO before...not the USA....you add in and change the goal posts to try to suit your argument. Boring.

Of course Putin doesn't want NATO or the EU on his doorstep. 

I had to move the goal posts, I've scored so many times in this discussion I decided to spare you any further embarrassment

[Fester]

35 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I had to move the goal posts, I've scored so many times in this discussion I decided to spare you any further embarrassment

Boring and deluded.

[PBS]

1 hour ago, billywillyjones said:

<SNIP>get back to work at PBS!!!

PBS have received numerous awards and nominations for their media work. Would be proud to work or have worked with PBS, but unfortunately not so.

Guess, as per usual for those from the right of centre, you will refuse to identify your main sources of media coverage?

 

[oldschooler]

NATO clearly a Defensive Military Alliance of Free Western People against Tyranny.

Russia unfortunately has chosen a long continous & exclusive history of Tyranny and has clearly been the main threat to freedom in Europe since 1946. NATO is the obvious Solution. It is no “relic”. conventionally unbeatable alliance. Putin well knows his conscript rust- bucket forces would be crushed by NATO forces in days so keep him unknowing of any NATO military action if his forces do invade Ukraine.

Ukranians are Russians. No NATO Blood must be shed there. Ukraine is however, remarkably, a True Democracy and as such MUST be Defended (non- militarily) by Massive NATO -nation Diplomatic & Economic Sanctions ONLY on Russia if Russia invades, just as was done after Crimea taken from Ukraine. Same situation / principle / solution.

Ignore the chattering Putin tyranny apologists with their “encirclement” nonsense. Russia’s ONLY Allies are Other Tyrannies.

The Hideous Butchering Terror Regimes in China, Iran, Syria, North Korea , Cuba, Venezuela, Belarus. Russia has NO Friends.

Says Everything about Russia. 

They are a DISEASE. NATO & Free Pacific Allies the CURE. 

Note I talk of the Tyrant Regimes, not the subjugated imprisoned Peoples in these hellish countries.

BUT every People are Responsible for, so DESERVE, their Own Govt.

ALL above can be applied also to China re. Taiwan, where US / Taiwan/ S. Korea / Japan, supported by UK / AUS / FR, would simply smash China CCP who would have no evidence of who, except Taiwan,  was destroying their invasion force……hidden subs & planes far over the horizon…….

 

[Poolie]

21 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

ALL above can be applied also to China re. Taiwan, where US / Taiwan/ S. Korea / Japan, supported by UK / AUS / FR, would simply smash China CCP who would have no evidence of who, except Taiwan,  was destroying their invasion force……hidden subs & planes far over the horizon…….

Funny you should say that........

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Poolie said:

Funny you should say that........

no connection between (a) the stated CCP objective of forcibly unifying Free Taiwan with Unfree China, Taiwan  being a key strategic node for the defence of all Free East Asia, and (b) some National Enquirer / Lampoon piece, satirizing / exaggerating real threats.

But if you then add CCP BRI Belt & Road Initiative & CCP Anti- Western Investment / Infiltration / Cyber practices, the humourous article scope starts to appear not so funny……

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

no connection between (a) the stated CCP objective of forcibly unifying Free Taiwan with Unfree China, Taiwan  being a key strategic node for the defence of all Free East Asia, and (b) some National Enquirer / Lampoon piece, satirizing / exaggerating real threats.

But if you then add CCP BRI Belt & Road Initiative & CCP Anti- Western Investment / Infiltration / Cyber practices, the humourous article scope starts to appear not so funny……

Seriously? The Chinese are going to attack all those countries, never having raised a storm since 1970? That was a border dispute that lasted less than a fortnight. 

[oldschooler]

25 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Seriously? The Chinese are going to attack all those countries, never having raised a storm since 1970? That was a border dispute that lasted less than a fortnight. 

well yes. they attack “asymetrically” by spying, cyber, economics, trade, debt traps, buying out corporations / institutions.

they are actually hopeless militarily. nothing since human waves in korea 1950-3. conscript decrepit armed forces.

so its all non-military asymetric warfare and shouting empty threats.good kicking from the tough experienced Viets 1979.

they cant go nuclear as america would obliterate them all. conventional forces only good for shooting their own people.

[Rain]

And to this day, we're blind to the truer evil and destruction in the world. 

Hint: rhymes with Anglophone. 

[Rookiescot]

IF Russian forces cross the border the west will declare a no fly zone over it. Any Russian planes or helicopters crossing it will be intercepted by western forces. Try winning a ground war with no air support while constantly being attacked by airpower yourself. Its really tricky.

Russian airpower pales in comparison to the west. It will be a turkey shoot.

Putin knows this.

All this is simply posturing because Putin wants Nord stream 2 brought online because he stands to make money out of it.

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

And to this day, we're blind to the truer evil and destruction in the world. 

Hint: rhymes with Anglophone. 

Styrofoam? 

Really struggling to see the link here. But then again most of your posts make no sense so I should be used to it by now.

[oldschooler]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

IF Russian forces cross the border the west will declare a no fly zone over it. Any Russian planes or helicopters crossing it will be intercepted by western forces. Try winning a ground war with no air support while constantly being attacked by airpower yourself. Its really tricky.

Russian airpower pales in comparison to the west. It will be a turkey shoot.

Putin knows this.

All this is simply posturing because Putin wants Nord stream 2 brought online because he stands to make money out of it.

interesting no fly idea like west did in iraq but I think there will be zero military nato intervention upon any such invasion.

[Rookiescot]

8 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

interesting no fly idea like west did in iraq but I think there will be zero military nato intervention upon any such invasion.

They will. Just to set a line in the sand. Russia is not the only threat the west is facing right now. And the west can afford to do it. In strategic terms the loss of a few aircraft is nothing.

However the sanctions the west will be able to employ against Russia will be excellent for the west but crippling for Russia.

[Poolie]

31 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

well yes. they attack “asymetrically” by spying, cyber, economics, trade, debt traps, buying out corporations / institutions.

they are actually hopeless militarily. nothing since human waves in korea 1950-3. conscript decrepit armed forces.

so its all non-military asymetric warfare and shouting empty threats.good kicking from the tough experienced Viets 1979.

they cant go nuclear as america would obliterate them all. conventional forces only good for shooting their own people.

Your obviously up to date then....I did advise that you ceased to read the Western Press but I guess you're hooked.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Poolie said:

Seriously? The Chinese are going to attack all those countries, never having raised a storm since 1970? That was a border dispute that lasted less than a fortnight. 

China knows its military cannot meet the west head on. So for years it has been trying to gain influence and control by other means. Usually by putting countries into so much debt the Chinese carpetbaggers can stroll in and take what the want.

Its starting to fail though. Other countries are now reaching the point where they say. No.

Coupled with Chinas own domestic economic problems its looking bad for the entire house of cards.

Maybe you should bring the emperor back.

[oldschooler]

15 hours ago, Poolie said:

Your obviously up to date then....I did advise that you ceased to read the Western Press but I guess you're hooked.

my CCP threat analysis is factual and aligns with western intelligence agency analysis.

try not to come across as an anti - western CCP apologist or Putin troll. harms reputation.

explained before I read western media selectively. left & right. some Opinion articles are high standard.

[Poolie]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

my CCP threat analysis is factual and aligns with western intelligence agency analysis.

try not to come across as an anti - western CCP apologist or Putin troll. harms reputation.

explained before I read western media selectively. left & right. some Opinion articles are high standard.

They have on occasion known to be wrong. WMDs, Iraqi families, etc. Hardly harmless.

[oldschooler]

43 minutes ago, Poolie said:

They have on occasion known to be wrong. WMDs, Iraqi families, etc. Hardly harmless.

rational sensible educated folk are free to apply evidence, probability and challenges when examining their democracies.

do that in Russia or China and you die.

when electing charlatans to power like Blair or May things tend to unravel fast when above tests done.

Iraqi WMD program most probably existed then scrapped long before 2nd Gulf War.

UN Resolution 1441 imposed burden of proof on Iraq to account for all WMD there.

US / UK determined that was not met so used that .genocide against Kurds, oilfields, etc. as pretext to invade Iraq. 

still no condemnation from you of the butchering totalitarian eastern regimes and their lying propaganda machines.

[Poolie]

12 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

still no condemnation from you of the butchering totalitarian eastern regimes and their lying propaganda machines.

The burden of truth lies with the accuser. I don't count 'oops, we'll find another excuse' sufficient. They killed over a million in Iraq.