News Forum - Covid-19 medications are a boon, but don’t replace vaccines

[Thaiger]

The good news of several new anti-viral pills that have shown to be effective in greatly reducing Covid-19 hospitalisations and deaths, coupled with statistically rare vaccine side effects or deaths that some people latch onto, may tempt many to skip getting vaccinated and rely solely on medication once they get infected. But a Thai expert on crisis communication with the University of Southern California’s Centre on Public Diplomacy, Silada “Lydia” Rojratanakiat, warns that Covid-19 fighting medications are not a replacement for vaccines. Thailand is rushing to get Merck’s new Molnupiravir treatment and Pfizer’s Paxlovid Covid-19 pills, medications that could substantially […]

The story Covid-19 medications are a boon, but don’t replace vaccines as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Bob20]

"Thailand is rushing to get..."

Yeah right, that's what they said 5 weeks ago too. And still they only "plan to order..." while other countries have placed firm orders. Don't hold your breath!

[Stonker]

48 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

"Thailand is rushing to get..."

Yeah right, that's what they said 5 weeks ago too. And still they only "plan to order..." while other countries have placed firm orders. Don't hold your breath!

Paxlovid was only released after completion of Ph 2 - 3 tests, and results of the tests made public, less than one week ago.

Thailand approved its purchase two days ago (Nov 9).

[Bob20]

22 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Paxlovid was only released after completion of Ph 2 - 3 tests, and results of the tests made public, less than one week ago.

Thailand approved its purchase two days ago (Nov 9).

They've been talking about Molnupiravir since beginning October with the same "urgency".

On 9 November there were several intentions published, but none "approve" purchase.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/advanced/2212383/govt-wants-more-covid-medicine&ved=2ahUKEwjC6Zisw5D0AhWISH0KHb1oDNgQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0O_mMYCTL0lqdApMrK-R23

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2212007/govt-to-boost-medical-arsenal&ved=2ahUKEwjC6Zisw5D0AhWISH0KHb1oDNgQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2opZZzPo10Aahr7mCo2xYB

If you know more details, please provide them.

[Stonker]

Molnupiravir has nowhere near the efficacy of Paxlovid: 50% vs  90% - possibly 100% vs death based on the Ph 2 trials, with a marginal loss of efficacy if taken a few days after infection unlike Molnupiravir which was developed to treat influenza.

Had Thailand rushed to buy Molnupiravir, spending billions of baht / hundreds of millions of dollars when Pfizer was about to release details of Paxlovid, they would, quite rightly, have been accused of panic buying and knee jerk decisions.

Two months ago Thailand reached an agreement in principle with Pfizer to purchase Paxlovid subject to successful trials, pricing, and approval by the US FDA.

The first press release giving outline results for the Paxlovid Ph 2 trial was on Friday, six days ago.

The summary of the trial results was released on Monday, three days ago, and it has yet to be peer reviewed.

Outline pricing, detailing that Thailand was not eligible to produce or buy generic copies at a cheaper price, was also released on Monday.

Thailand approved funds in principle to buy Paxlovid on Tuesday, although Pfizer are not due to submit an application for US FDA approval until 25 November, in two more weeks. The US has made a similar agreement, with their order being subject to Paxlovid getting FDA approval.

To me that's a perfectly reasonable and rapid response to committing hundreds of millions of dollars / billions of baht on a drug when application for FDA approval hasn't even been made yet, and the full results of the trials haven't yet even been peer reviewed let alone studied locally.

To you that's a laughably slow and inadequate response.

We'll just have to agree to differ on this.

 

[Bill2054]

To quote Mr. B. Franklin, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Vaccination has a good track record so far. The treatments are great for when you already have the virus, though timing seems to be a critical factor

 

[Lawyers_Guns_and_Money]

I heard it was made with the blood of a bat and the bones of a puppy that Alec Baldwin shot in New Mexico. Not saying it is true, but that's what people are saying. 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Bill2054 said:

To quote Mr. B. Franklin, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Vaccination has a good track record so far. 

Agreed @Bill2054, but according to the experts the main use for the drug treatment is likely to be in those countries where so far there are very few vaccines (the poorest), but the worry is that the richest countries will rush to buy up the supply so it's back to square one.

1 hour ago, Bill2054 said:

The treatments are great for when you already have the virus, though timing seems to be a critical factor

"great" according to the published results from the trials so far, but the trials were tiny and the results barely known as yet which is why no-one's "rushing" to buy as yet (except the UK, AFAIK) and all orders are very much subject to approval and confirmation.

In the Paxlovid trial, less than a thousand had the drug, with 389 taking it three days after infection and 607 five days after (with similar numbers taking a placebo), and as the trials only started on 29 September that doesn't allow much time to check for side effects before "rushing" into anything and shouting "great".

What's also unknown as yet are basic details like age or other conditions for the small number in the study - Paxlovid, for example, is combined with Ritonavir which can have an adverse affect on those taking medication for heart conditions.

A number of experts have expressed a lot of concern about stopping the trials early rather than expanding them, with some pointing out that "some laboratory studies have suggested that Molnupiravir could cause gene mutations in human DNA", as could Paxlovir.

The anti-vaxxers and those crying "experimental drugs" could (and probably will) have a field day with this as Ph 2 trials haven't even been finished, let alone Ph 3 trials started.

 

[Faz]

On 11/11/2021 at 9:12 PM, Stonker said:

Paxlovid was only released after completion of Ph 2 - 3 tests, and results of the tests made public, less than one week ago.

Thailand approved its purchase two days ago (Nov 9).

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2212563/cabinet-approves-purchase-of-molnupiravir

The cabinet has approved the Ministry of Public Health's proposal to buy 50,000 courses, equal to 2 million pills, of molnupiravir, the world's first oral medication for the treatment of Covid-19, Public Health Minister Anutin Charnvirakul said on Tuesday.

 

[Poolie]

4 minutes ago, Faz said:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2212563/cabinet-approves-purchase-of-molnupiravir

The cabinet has approved the Ministry of Public Health's proposal to buy 50,000 courses, equal to 2 million pills, of molnupiravir, the world's first oral medication for the treatment of Covid-19, Public Health Minister Anutin Charnvirakul said on Tuesday.

Good. Every little helps. (To get the bars open)

[Bob20]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:07 AM, Stonker said:

 

To you that's a laughably slow and inadequate response.

We'll just have to agree to differ on this.

I assume that's in reply to my post although I'm not quoted, but none of it is relevant.

I have posted about Paxlovid even before Thaiger did.

But my point wasn't about Paxlovid. My point was that there's lots of talk but no action even about Molnupiravir since beginning October.

And even in the article that Faz kindly provided there's talk of approval for Molnupiravir, but not for Paxlovid as you claimed.

And in the same article it's mentioned that there's no timeline for ordering, let alone delivery.

That's my point when I said "don't hold your breath".

[Stonker]

42 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

 My point was that there's lots of talk but no action even about Molnupiravir since beginning October.

And even in the article that Fax kindly provided there's talk of approval for Molnupiravir, but not for Paxlovid as you claimed.

As I said, I'm not going to get into an argument about this but what you're saying is simply not true as the article @Faz linked to isn't "talk of approval" but it clearly says "approved", as do plenty of others, categorically, although most are in Thai.

https://www.bernama.com/en/news.php?id=2021489

I elaborated on the timeline for Paxlovid in my subsequent comment in case there was any room for nit-picking and doubt, as well as to try to show why any action before last Tuesday over Molnupiravir, when more details of Paxlovid were released, would have been premature. 

You apparently take a different view, which you're entitled to.

Thailand has "approved" the purchase of Paxlovid in exactly the same way that the US has, subject to the same caveats.

I can't see anything to be gained by my arguing about this any further as the reports are all very clear.

[Bob20]

16 minutes ago, Stonker said:

As I said, I'm not going to get into an argument about this but what you're saying is simply not true as the article @Faz linked to isn't "talk of approval" but it clearly says "approved", as do plenty of others, categorically, although most are in Thai.

https://www.bernama.com/en/news.php?id=2021489

I elaborated on the timeline for Paxlovid in my subsequent comment in case there was any room for nit-picking and doubt, as well as to try to show why any action before last Tuesday over Molnupiravir, when more details of Paxlovid were released, would have been premature. 

You apparently take a different view, which you're entitled to.

Thailand has "approved" the purchase of Paxlovid in exactly the same way that the US has, subject to the same caveats.

I can't see anything to be gained by my arguing about this any further as the reports are all very clear.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 9:12 PM, Stonker said:

Paxlovid was only released after completion of Ph 2 - 3 tests, and results of the tests made public, less than one week ago.

Thailand approved its purchase two days ago (Nov 9).

Sorry Stonker, but the link provided by Faz and the link you have now provided yourself show Molnupiravir as approved. Not Paxlovid as you stated.

And for the approved Molnupiravir no timeline for ordering or delivery is known.

So I understand that you see no point in arguing, as your claim about Paxlovid remains unsupported. And really you didn't need to argue with my simple "don't hold your breath" in the first place.

[Stonker]

The timelines for ordering and delivery, also confirming details of the Molnupiravir purchase, were given by the BP amongst others:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2212007/govt-to-boost-medical-arsenal

and by Thai PBS, detailing the meeting with Pfizer over Paxlovid yesterday:

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/paxlovid-and-molnupiravir-covid-19-treatments-planned-to-be-purchased/

Edit: 

That really is the end of my interest in this particular aspect of this thread / article.

[Bob20]

On 11/11/2021 at 9:12 PM, Stonker said:

Paxlovid was only released after completion of Ph 2 - 3 tests, and results of the tests made public, less than one week ago.

Thailand approved its purchase two days ago (Nov 9).

Thanks for the link. There's nothing in it to support your above claim that Paxlovid was approved for purchase.