UK Pensioners

[gummy]

42 minutes ago, Faz said:

Understand the old and new, but SIPPS was a new abbreviation I wasn't familiar with and which google didn't find the answer either. 

I started drawing on my private pension just before the changes were taking place giving people greater freedom and choice in the options available to them when accessing their pension savings. ( 2015). To many plans were in place for me to wait 3 months and take advantage. I suspect as you did, I was only able to take the 25% tax free lump sum.

Yes, same for me so suspect others are newer to the scene hence not understanding that differant rules apply

[gummy]

1 hour ago, LoongFred said:

It seams like your system socks for expats.

I 

[gummy]

1 hour ago, Transam said:

What does that mean....?

It means a) he can not spell and/or b) he has no comprehension of the UK system

[Benroon]

9 hours ago, Faz said:

Now I understand your comments.
Indeed you are still expected to pay tax in either the UK or the Country of residence.
The fact Thai Inland revenue turned you away doesn't absolve you of paying tax.

A foreigner in a similar position was asked to provide evidence of paying tax in a different Country by HMRC, 3 years after he drew down on an offshore investment. He couldn't - now they are deducting £50 a week from his state pension + interest.

He led the high life for a while and blew it, now he's on his backside.
HMRC have a penchant for checking even several years later.

I'm struggling to comprehend that, he was defrauding the Thai tax system so I can't think where HMRC come into it, I think some wires have got crossed here to be fair. You don't get a choice where you pay tax, you pay it where it's due and in that guys position it was Thailand. Furthermore if you are a non resident, perhaps he didn't declare himself as such, but if you are the onus stops there as well, unless you are actually generating it in the UK.

You're right HMRC have got very long arms, that go back 7 years I think, might be wrong, but in the case above they had no arms at all.

You're right it doesn't absolve me of paying any tax and I'm  probably in a minority of less than 0.01% that volunteered to do so, but now I have got in writing that they told me to sod off so to speak. So it would be up to a judge, but from my dealings and I didn't try just the once, I reckon the chances of them even having a system in place that would identify me a a tax evader are zilch!

 

[Benroon]

8 hours ago, Saltire said:

Agree, I lived off SIPP drawdowns for 5 years during my time living in Cambodia.

It was indeed paid gross but I had to declare it on my tax return and pay the tax. I managed to pay minimal tax by drawing down just enough to cover the personal alllowance. Worked out fone for me. I wasn't working in Cambodia (or in Thailand now) so I have to pay UK tax forever. Resistance is futile!

If you declare yourself a non resident, there is no tax return. You've effectively and legitimately removed yourself from their radar.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, gummy said:

Yes, same for me so suspect others are newer to the scene hence not understanding that differant rules apply

They introduced the new 'state pension' scheme in April 2016.
I was 65 in 2018, 44 qualifying years, happy days or so I thought having requested a pension forecast the previous year.

When I received the pension summary breakdown, what I wasn't previously aware of is that for each year you may have been 'contracted' out, they made an adjustment of £4.60 a week reduction for each year.
I had 7 years contracted out, so my weekly pension was reduced by over £30.

They promised to pay the greater amount when calculating under the old and new schemes.
Basically, I was £1 a week better off under the new scheme than the old scheme.
This rule didn't apply to the old state pension scheme.

[gummy]

7 minutes ago, Faz said:

They introduced the new 'state pension' scheme in April 2016.
I was 65 in 2018, 44 qualifying years, happy days or so I thought having requested a pension forecast the previous year.

When I received the pension summary breakdown, what I wasn't previously aware of is that for each year you may have been 'contracted' out, they made an adjustment of £4.60 a week reduction for each year.
I had 7 years contracted out, so my weekly pension was reduced by over £30.

They promised to pay the greater amount when calculating under the old and new schemes.
Basically, I was £1 a week better off under the new scheme than the old scheme.
This rule didn't apply to the old state pension scheme.

Well when I started work it was under the old pension scheme that for every 6d you paid in you would get an extra £ 1 in your pension. That of course was discontinued around 1969/70 I think.

[Faz]

30 minutes ago, Benroon said:

I'm struggling to comprehend that, he was defrauding the Thai tax system so I can't think where HMRC come into it, I think some wires have got crossed here to be fair. You don't get a choice where you pay tax, you pay it where it's due and in that guys position it was Thailand. Furthermore if you are a non resident, perhaps he didn't declare himself as such, but if you are the onus stops there as well, unless you are actually generating it in the UK.

No, he declared himself a non resident of the UK.
Absolutely correct that he should have paid the tax in Thailand - but he didn't.
He just didn't declare it thinking nobody would be an the wiser.
HMRC came requesting his proof of tax payment to Thai Inland revenue.
I can't give more details as he passed away early this year, but UK Inland revenue never recovered the full debt. He had to go back to the UK end of 2018 to some disciplinary hearing.

Recently Thai Inland revenue launched a major investigation into a scam being pulled by foreigners from one of the Nordic(?) countries. They were having their pensions transferred 'gross' because taxation was lower in Thailand. However they never declared it to the Thai authorities.
It all came about by their Inland revenue requesting tax information on the individuals from Thai Inland revenue. It was in the news some months ago.

The UK has a reciprocal agreement with Thailand on taxation, as do most European countries, but not all.

[Chaimai]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

If you declare yourself a non resident, there is no tax return. You've effectively and legitimately removed yourself from their radar.

...but you still have to declare, and account for, any income generated in the UK.

 

I cannot declare non-residency because of "ties to the UK". That is because of my directorship/s that come about as a result of shareholdings in private companies.

 

I would love to go under the radar...........................

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

No, he declared himself a non resident of the UK.
Absolutely correct that he should have paid the tax in Thailand - but he didn't.
He just didn't declare it thinking nobody would be an the wiser.
HMRC came requesting his proof of tax payment to Thai Inland revenue.
I can't give more details as he passed away early this year, but UK Inland revenue never recovered the full debt. He had to go back to the UK end of 2018 to some disciplinary hearing.

Recently Thai Inland revenue launched a major investigation into a scam being pulled by foreigners from one of the Nordic(?) countries. They were having their pensions transferred 'gross' because taxation was lower in Thailand. However they never declared it to the Thai authorities.
It all came about by their Inland revenue requesting tax information on the individuals from Thai Inland revenue. It was in the news some months ago.

The UK has a reciprocal agreement with Thailand on taxation, as do most European countries, but not all.

Have you got the article? I'm not saying I don't believe it but I would be stunned if that was the case.

There is absolutely no way whatsoever that the HMRC can arc into other countries tax affairs and demand proof of anything. It just isn't there business - if it's owed to HMRC they'll come looking for you, if it's owed to Thailand, Eritrea or Uganda they wouldn't give a shit. Why would they ? even if Thailand weren't getting it, it's still not due to the UK so where would be the interest ? HMRC can be bastards at time but I don't think even they would act out of pure spite. They are also chronically understaffed and even if that was a runner it would be way down their list of priorities but it's not. The way that's written makes it sound like every other nation on earth is a subsidiary of the HMRC.

It is of no concern at all to the HMRC if someone doesn't pay tax in a country 6000 miles away - it's not due in the UK therefore the interest in that person stops there.

Re the reciprocal agreement, yes you're correct and I've always thought it would be simplicity itself for the HMRC to produce a computer generated list of expats and say there you go Mr Thailand here's a list of people not paying tax to us as it's due to you as they are no longer a resident of UK, if you wouldn't mind responding in kind etc that would be great, but as I said even if that were to happen I would wager everything I've got that the Thai taxation system wouldn't have a clue where to even begin. They would have to tackle the payments themselves, the source, the personal circumstances, allowances, liabilities in other areas, they would drown in no time which probably explains the zero appetite I came up against. Now if Thailand has no interest, it doesn't then default back to the UK.

I'm not giving advice here, everyone has to do what they're comfortable with, but don't forget every penny including mine MUST go through HMRC by law - ie every dividend, every interest payment on savings, every payment from a UK based vehicle, and every fund manager out there must adhere to this and where relevant take tax at source, now bearing this in mind, I get a monthly payment (as a non res) which is free from tax, the HMRC know I am getting it free of tax, they are also doubly aware it is free of tax because to declare yourself non res you must tell HMRC exactly what your plans are to get that status, there is no other way. So I would be serving myself up on a plate. Now ask yourself have I just got lucky all this time ? Of course not, it's because it is not due to the UK and as sure as eggs are eggs there is absolutely no way on earth they would be overseeing the taxation policies of the other 200 nations on earth. The brits can come across as being a bit pompous but that really would be taking the biscuit!

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

 

Recently Thai Inland revenue launched a major investigation into a scam being pulled by foreigners from one of the Nordic(?) countries. They were having their pensions transferred 'gross' because taxation was lower in Thailand. However they never declared it to the Thai authorities.
It all came about by their Inland revenue requesting tax information on the individuals from Thai Inland revenue. It was in the news some months ago.

 

Yes sorry, I think the above is going down a different path ie that's just criminal behaviour. We both know and acknowledge that you should be paying tax in Thailand if not your own country but the chaps above are wilfully avoiding tax and no doubt their own countries investigations are centred on should they be paying it in theirs.

The difference between me and them, is I have actively attempted to pay tax on my earnings and been told in no uncertain circumstance to bog off - I took the Mrs along and her take on it was there was no mechanism to take it off me as a non corporate entity. I spoke to a thai lawyer on a golf course a few years ago and ran it past him and he just laughed saying there was no chance they would come knocking (though I keep the cash to one side incase along with evidence I tried). I have run into many people I tell I have tried paying tax and they look at me like I' nuts ie they're clearly not paying it either. 

I mean we could ask here - how many non res people on here are paying Thailand income tax  ???? Any takers ?

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, Chaimai said:

...but you still have to declare, and account for, any income generated in the UK.

I cannot declare non-residency because of "ties to the UK". That is because of my directorship/s that come about as a result of shareholdings in private companies.

I would love to go under the radar...........................

Yes for sure - non res status means no ties allowed whatsoever that I know of, from corporate connections to NHS care - once you cut yourself off, and its not for everyone, you're on your own.

[Silky8]

Interesting topic that doesn't affect me at present but worth the read/insights.

Am I right in thinking the debate is centered around UK expats UK public pension being frozen, while if they live in UK there is an annual uplift?

I opted out of SERPS in mid 80s into a private pension - does this mean my UK pension will be less now for doing so?

[Saltire]

12 hours ago, Benroon said:

If you declare yourself a non resident, there is no tax return. You've effectively and legitimately removed yourself from their radar.

Thanks, I would love you to be correct but I keep getting conflicting information.

I am going to ask my accountant to check this (again) and will also write to HMRC as not paying tax from now on would be fantastic. Not worried about a rebate as it wouldn't really amount to much even over the 10 years since I declared non-resident.

If you are right I will Kerry you a box of beer

[Agudbuk]

8 hours ago, Silky8 said:

Interesting topic that doesn't affect me at present but worth the read/insights.

Am I right in thinking the debate is centered around UK expats UK public pension being frozen, while if they live in UK there is an annual uplift?

I opted out of SERPS in mid 80s into a private pension - does this mean my UK pension will be less now for doing so?

Yes this started as a  post about the unfairness of frozen pensions for UK expats who live in the "wrong" country.

******

If you opted out of SERPS payments then your state pension will be lower  but that should be more than compensated for by your private pension. 

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, Saltire said:

Thanks, I would love you to be correct but I keep getting conflicting information.

I am going to ask my accountant to check this (again) and will also write to HMRC as not paying tax from now on would be fantastic. Not worried about a rebate as it wouldn't really amount to much even over the 10 years since I declared non-resident.

If you are right I will Kerry you a box of beer

lol ok you're on but I'm partial to Peroni, a beautiful Italian beer only on import :-)

100% you will keep getting conflicting information - the HMRC website is very generic itself and doesn't cover many aspects in detail. I think they keep it deliberately vague so you're panicked into paying up. Then of course every person in a bar and his dog will come out with 'you pay tax on all income coming from the UK' - and that gets entrenched the more people say it, but it's not wholly true. I am living proof it's not true and HMRC have every detail of my position.

Also re accountants I must have contacted dozens and remember being really shocked at how much a grey area it was for them, I mean I guess they are number crunchers where you probably need one who is up on tax law. So don't be surprised if your accountant starts with 'errrrrrr'

I ended up phoning a tax lawyer at an eye watering £200 an hour who plainly laid it out to me. I am absolutely certain if you are a non res, then you will not be paying any tax on investment income from a SIPP or private investments - I'm not 100% sure about state pension as I haven't got there yet.

I'm happy to say that most of my worth is tied up with a company called Vestra worth nearly $3billion and they do everything by the book, absolutely everything.  (They're also currently making 14.08% a year as of this morning just incase yours are behind that :-)) - it was they who enquired why I was paying tax (they took it off at source previously when I too thought I had to pay tax on it having listened to all the aforementioned bar peeps) when I lived in Thailand and suggested I went non res so they could send it to me gross. Clearly pointing out at the same time I was still responsible for paying it here and sent me the details, but as I've said to Faz, if they won't take it off me, and there doesn't even seem to be a mechanism to even do that, there's not a lot I can do, apart from making sure it's available should anyone demand it. (I think here it would be 23% last time I looked)

I would be fascinated to know if anyone on here pays tax ....

 

[Benroon]

10 hours ago, Silky8 said:

Interesting topic that doesn't affect me at present but worth the read/insights.

Am I right in thinking the debate is centered around UK expats UK public pension being frozen, while if they live in UK there is an annual uplift?

I opted out of SERPS in mid 80s into a private pension - does this mean my UK pension will be less now for doing so?

It depends - the quick answer is yes it would be lower but you may have made it up if you opted back in which many people did ?

HMRC have a calculator where you just put your NI number in and it will give you your projected weekly pension amount here :-

https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

If there is a shortfall on the max, you can then make up any shortfall with a cash payment, it works out a good move for some but not for others - I believe there is also a calculator which tells you whether it's worth doing in your particular circumstance.

[Benroon]

On 11/16/2021 at 12:30 AM, Chaimai said:

The Chinese have no complaints since 

I doubt that many expats in living in Europe voted for Brexit......

Oh I think you would be surprised - I worked for a major Spanish bank and was surrounded by people frothing to vote leave in spite of the thinly veiled threats from the CEO that it could cost them their jobs.

Fast forward 2 years every one of them was made redundant from a very nicely paid job as they moved their operation from the UK back to Spain.

 

[Agudbuk]

 

British State Pensions World Wide facebook group

 

(Our main agenda is full Parity. we reject Partial uprating).This group is to notify British State pensioners about any legislation about the State Pension, whether frozen or not. To allow members to voice their frustrations of the UK Governments treatment of pensioners

 

Norma Maloney (Admin)

 

DO NOT INVITE MEMBERS TO JOIN THE BSPWW the British State Pensions World Wide without telling them that they will have to answer some questions, as they will not be cleared, if they do answer all questions then it will automatically allow them to join.

Can I ask everyone if they know of other British frozen pensioners to please ask them to contact me norma@bestbirds.co.za about joining our fight for justice. We need to swell our numbers.

We also need younger people into our ranks, people who at present are not pensioners but who will one day suffer their pensions to be frozen.

Especially if you have younger family members who have worked in the UK and have paid into the NIF (National Insurance Fund).

According, to the DWP the number of Frozen pensioners is below.

Australia 224624

Canada 126785

New Zealand 64193

South Africa 31114

Japan 6700

Thailand 5334

India 4304

Pakistan 2741

Hong Kong 2370

Malaysia 2193

They say 31114 for South Africa, I hardly doubt this figure as I am sure they are taking into account the continent of the whole of Africa. As I know that I have members from other African countries.

 

[Rookiescot]

10 hours ago, Benroon said:

Oh I think you would be surprised - I worked for a major Spanish bank and was surrounded by people frothing to vote leave in spite of the thinly veiled threats from the CEO that it could cost them their jobs.

Fast forward 2 years every one of them was made redundant from a very nicely paid job as they moved their operation from the UK back to Spain.

Yeah but blue passports.

They should be proud of their sacrifice. 

[Silky8]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

It depends - the quick answer is yes it would be lower but you may have made it up if you opted back in which many people did ?

HMRC have a calculator where you just put your NI number in and it will give you your projected weekly pension amount here :-

https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

If there is a shortfall on the max, you can then make up any shortfall with a cash payment, it works out a good move for some but not for others - I believe there is also a calculator which tells you whether it's worth doing in your particular circumstance.

Thanks for the link - just checked an it said £179 per week in 2035 

[Benroon]

28 minutes ago, Silky8 said:

Thanks for the link - just checked an it said £179 per week in 2035 

Happy days that's the max

(Unless of course you're currently 92 !!) 

[Silky8]

2 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Happy days that's the max

(Unless of course you're currently 92 !!) 

Not quite 92 yet haha  but good to know I'm on the max having taken the opted out part for many decades. 

[steve860]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:26 PM, Faraday said:

Got any more pearls of wisdom, Fred?

Fred is a bit of a divvy.

[gummy]

7 hours ago, steve860 said:

Fred is a bit of a divvy.

He won't know that term