News Forum - Alcohol ban likely lifted for restaurants in key tourist Blue Zones

[Stonker]

20 minutes ago, Poolie said:

You do realise that that went entirely unheeded dont you?

I'm afraid your wasting your time, seriously.

Actually he didn't go "unheeded" at all - he's simply arguing with something neither I nor anyone else has said or suggested.

[longwood50]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:08 PM, Stonker said:

No, I think TOURISM spreads Covid, as I've explained to you several times as have many others.

And I quote verbatim what you said.  
 

While tourism may spread covid as stated, it is the "least" of all the the activities.  

So this fixation on tourists and restrictions is misguided.  It is like giving birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies to 60 year old women.  Yep, you may stop some but precious few.  Same with tourists.  You may stop some covid but they are the least likely to have it, or spread it given they have been tested not once but twice, and have to be fully immunized in order to enter. 

[Poolie]

28 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

You probably are correct. 

Seriously, I just can't believe that there are so many people who lack any common sense at all.   

I know if I was worried about covid and had a choice of socializing with 1,000 tourists all vaccinated and tested versus socializing with 1,000 locals who had not been tested and/or vaccinated which group I would choose. 

 

Oh a daily perusal of the internet tells you. The world is full of thickets trying to disseminate their 'wisdom.'

[Soidog]

3 hours ago, Bob20 said:

And it's not in reply to your message, but I'm not suggesting everyone stays at home or that we have another lockdown. But I am suggesting that unnecessary movement is limited and that people at the very least strictly abide by the measures to limit transmission of the virus).

I think that’s a key point @Bob20  lockdowns are the heavy tool to halt the spread and bring it under control. Right from the start, had people respected the restrictions, many lockdowns around the world could have been avoided. Covid is like a car heading down hill. You can slam the breaks on (lockdown) and stop it. Soon as you ease off the breaks it will accelerate again. The question is how much do you ease off and still keep control? 
 

It is clear that as of tomorrow, the government are now easing off the breaks. You could say they have taken their foot right off the break, opened the door and jumped out of the car! 

[BigHewer]

Topic locked for review.

[BigHewer]

 

Gentlemen, 

A number of posts have been removed or edited. The topic for this thread is “Alcohol ban likely lifted for restaurants in key tourist Blue Zones”. Spirited debate is most welcome, but comments on other members’ mental states and reading skills are not.

Let’s keep thing things civil and on-topic please.

Regards,

Moderator

 

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, longwood50 said:

If they had taken Phizer or Moderna they would have only a 5% chance of even contracting covid at anytime,

That's a complete and total misunderstanding of the level and type of protection given by Phizer or Moderna.

While they both give 95% plus protection against Covid, that's protection against developing symptoms, particularly serious ones and death.

Neither give ANY protection at all from "contracting covid" let alone "95%", and neither have ever suggested they might.

I'm genuinely astonished that this long after the vaccines have been introduced anyone commenting about them could be quite so mis-informed.

3 hours ago, longwood50 said:

studies show that even if they did contract it they have a 63% lower rate of transmission of covid to another person than someone who contracts covid without immunization. 

Well, at least that's based on actual studies even if they've since been shown to be incorrect by peer review.

The two studies were in Holland and Israel.

The Dutch study studied cases based on track 'n' trace, which were shown to be flawed as they were based on modelling and the assumption that the tracing was correct even when the sources were unknown, when on review the tracing was inconclusive.

The Israeli study didn't actually study any people at all but studied the effects on half a dozen petri dishes.

Both have since been superceded by a full, peer reviewed study published recently in the Lancet (not definitive due to only studying a few hundred cases) which concluded that there was absolutely NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL between the chances of a vaccinated or unvaccinated person infecting someone, based on a real world, direct comparison study of people living in the same household.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, longwood50 said:

While tourism may spread covid as stated, it is the "least" of all the the activities.  

But it's not, as has been amply shown not just here but in literally every country that had restrictions and then lifted them - literally every country, without exception.

If you disagree name any country where that hasn't happened.

Any at all.

As I've explained, twice, and you've completely ignored:

"Maybe you'd care to explain how allowing restaurants to not only allow dining-in but to serve alcohol, opening bars and nightclubs, allowing socialising, partying, meetings and concerts, allowing unrestricted travel, and ultimately not requiring masks to be worn since as has been said tourists won't want to go to a country where there are more restrictions than their own, won't spread Covid?

I'm not blaming tourists for that as arguably they're no more likely to spread Covid than anyone else - although arguably they are as they're more likely to be asymptomatic - but I'm blaming tourism since those are all very basic requirements for tourism here,  as pretty much everyone seems to agree.

If you think I'm "wrong" then please explain either how none of that loosening of regulations will affect Covid spreading, or how none of it is a requirement for tourism.

The ball's in your court, but I won't be holding my breath"

I genuinely don't know how to explain that any more simply.

I've even said "I'm not blaming  tourists for that ", putting "tourists" in bold from the start to make sure it was absolutely clear beyond any possible doubt.

3 hours ago, longwood50 said:

So this fixation on tourists is misguided.

Apart from in your imagination, there is NO "fixation on tourists" - not from me, not from anybody here.

Nobody's saying tourists will spread Covid, however much you may like them to be.

 

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

I think that’s a key point @Bob20  lockdowns are the heavy tool to halt the spread and bring it under control. Right from the start, had people respected the restrictions, many lockdowns around the world could have been avoided. Covid is like a car heading down hill. You can slam the breaks on (lockdown) and stop it. Soon as you ease off the breaks it will accelerate again. The question is how much do you ease off and still keep control? 
 

It is clear that as of tomorrow, the government are now easing off the breaks. You could say they have taken their foot right off the break, opened the door and jumped out of the car! 

Excellent analogy, @Soidog.

It's like braking a car rolling down hill so that a mechanic can have time to come and fix the steering (give out vaccines) so the car can be driven safely (lived with) without hitting anyone.

Except that without brakes and steering the mechanics going to have to fix the steering  while the car's out of control knocking over everyone in it's path.

... and by lifting the alcohol ban you're not just taking your foot off the brake, but putting it on the throttle!

[longwood50]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:22 PM, Poolie said:

Oh a daily perusal of the internet tells you. The world is full of thickets trying to disseminate their 'wisdom.'

Well it has certainly cured me of believing in Darwin's survival of the fittest. 

[longwood50]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:16 PM, Stonker said:

That's a complete and total misunderstanding of the level and type of protection given by Phizer or Moderna.

Stonker,

I have neither the time or crayons to explain things to you.  

[longwood50]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:45 PM, Stonker said:

But it's not, as has been amply shown not just here but in literally every country that had restrictions and then lifted them - literally every country, without exception.

You seem to have this delusion that somehow correlation and causation are the same. 

Thailand would be a good example.  Thailand was "praised" for such a quick and speedy response that curbed the covid virus from spreading.  Of course the same experience was equally true in neighboring Vietnam, Myamar, Laos, and Cambodia as if all of these countries were among the most diligent in the world.  Now even with ZERO tourists Thailand's Covid rate has spiked.  So were the tourists responsible.  Common sense if you were to use it would say that the spike did not come from tourists since Thailand had none. 

Again, I don't know why and neither do you or anyone else why there are disparities in Covid infection rates.  Here is a map of Thailand.  Note the northeast provinces THAT BORDER each other range from Dark Red, to Red, to Orange.  Certainly not due to increased tourism or different standards of covid protection. 

Before you jump to another unfounded theory that it is population density. Washington DC has by far the highest population density in the USA and it has one of the lowest rates of Covid infection.  Oh tourists,  Well Hawaii has the highest percentage of tourists in the USA and it has THE LOWEST RATE of Covid infection.  In the continental USA the state with the least restrictions is Florida and IT NOW HAS the lowest covid infection rate.  That is despite it being a tourist state and one filled with the most elderly in the USA as a retirement state. 

Bottom line. The statistics show that very little has had much meaningful impact on covid infections and no one has a clue why countries such as Estonia only 86 KM from Finland has a much higher infection rate despite similar EU protocols.   We don't know why Belgium and the Netherlands have covid infection rates 2.5 times higher than Germany that they border.  But one thing is certain they all used similar EU covid prevention protocols.  It was not due to "tourists" flooding into Belgium and the Netherlands and it sure shows that even using identical measures that covid rates of infection have a huge variance.  Why?  I don't believe anyone has the answer but it sure isn't that tourists were let in, mask mandates were loosened, bars were allowed to reopen and quarantines lifted. 

 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Stonker,

I have neither the time or crayons to explain things to you.  

Check the date that was written and read what you've screenshot:

"based on evidence from clinical trials".

What you've quoted was based ONLY on clinical trials and is way out of date.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Common sense if you were to use it would say that the spike did not come from tourists since Thailand had none. 

I have never said that it was due to "tourists", and I've repeatedly and clearly said that it isn't.

I've said this several times and I don't know how to to say it any more clearly.

You're simply disagreeing, as offensively as you can get away with, with something that neither I nor anyone else here has said.

[longwood50]

23 hours ago, Stonker said:

What you've quoted was based ONLY on clinical trials and is way out of date.

Well this is from October 21,2021 or is that too dated for you.  One way or another, fully vaccinated people that have been tested represent those least likely to be infected and hence infect others.  Studies have shown that those who have been vaccinated, and still contracted Covid at 63% less likely to transmit it to others.  

Their covid is milder and thought to have a lower viral load, and in some cases the virus is emitted coated with antibodies.  

So this mania about letting in tourists is just that mania.  They are at far greater risk of obtaining covid while visiting a foreign country from residents not vaccinated than they are likely to be able to spread it. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by longwood50

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Well this is from October 21,2021 or is that too dated for you.  One way or another, fully vaccinated people that have been tested represent those least likely to be infected and hence infect others.  Studies have shown that those who have been vaccinated, and still contracted Covid at 63% less likely to transmit it to others.  

Their covid is milder and thought to have a lower viral load, and in some cases the virus is emitted coated with antibodies.  

So this mania about letting in tourists is just that mania.  They are at far greater risk of obtaining covid while visiting a foreign country from residents not vaccinated than they are likely to be able to spread it. 

You're either unable or unwilling to understand what anyone says and you just keep repeating the same thing as if it's true however much it's shown to be completely wrong.

"95.6% efficacy against Covid-19" doesn't mean that it reduces the chance of contracting Covid by 95.6%.  It means that it reduces the chances of deaths, hospitalisation, serious and moderate effects by 95.6%.

Two totally different things.

The two studies showing a "63%" reduction were never peer reviewed, were not "real world" and have both been shown to be wrong with a recent real world study in the Lancet, peer reviewed and supported, which I've linked to before, showed that there was no reduction in transmission at all.

And no-one here has a "mania about tourists" or has said that tourists will spread Covid.

You're quoting me as if that's what I've said when I've said repeatedly that they're not.

[Bob20]

This thread should be locked or go back on topic, instead of further ignorance and bickering from longwood50.

It has been explained to him numerous times in several different threads that there is a difference between contracting and passing on the virus (which happens in vaccinated and unvaccinated people) and becoming sick or dying from the virus (which is what the vaccines protect you from to a high degree).

There is also no solid evidence and certainly no consensus on vaccinated people having lower transmissability of the virus.

This is no longer a misunderstanding. After multiple explanations it is willful ignorance to keep bringing up the same argument and to fight the same battle with different members on this forum. It's time to put a stop to it.