News Forum - 1 dead, 1 injured in prop gun shooting on Alec Baldwin movie set

[23RD]

On 10/24/2021 at 5:47 AM, Time_to_live said:

LoongFred, you are judging Alec Baldwin based on your political stance and little facts about this case.  You show no empathy for a fellow human that has experienced a horrific accidental killing of another human.  Alec is devastated and the victims families are crushed.  You even suggest that Alec might be acting to win sympathy....you have a very cold heart.

Alex Baldwin has a long history of violent outburst and attacking random People in fits of rage (probably due to substance of alcohol abuse).

He's been on enough movie sets to know whats right and wrong I personally hope he serve's some serious jail time for the death of this young Woman it would probably do him good to spend some time with some real hardmen as I'm sure they would help him with his mood swings and his various addictions.

However I'm not holding my breath as his LIBERAL PREVILAGE will probably spare him any time behind bars.

[Stonker]

30 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

So in essence the chamber dictates the caliber of the ammo inserted regardless of whether the round be live or blank? Hence the physical dimensions would be the same for both with regard to the relevant firearm so as to avoid any over pressure that could rupture the barrel.

For a revolver, yes, but it also depends on the length of the round - for example .38, .357, .380 auto and 9mm are all the same calibre but the ammunition isn't always interchangeable.  It's not just as simple as calibre, and while you can fire a round from gun 'A' in gun 'B' that doesn't mean you can fire a round from gun 'B' in gun 'A'.

30 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Not to implicate conspiracy theory but could the firearm in question (Alec Baldwin's case) be used elsewhere between filming takes and then returned with rounds swapped as the revolvers ammo both live and blank look the same?

There's no reports that suggest that, and it certainly shouldn't have happened with checks made both after and before any use.

Just to try to clear this up, "live and blank" do NOT "look the same". ABSOLUTELY NOT!

There's no possible way they can be confused - blank rounds have a crimped end, with no bullet, while live rounds have a bullet at the sharp end.

Where there's room for confusion is between movie drill / dummy rounds which are made to look like live rounds, but which are completely inert, and live rounds which are made to kill people  - what's not clear here is why live ammunition was on the set at all and how a live round could end up being fired.

Bad weapon safety could meant that blanks and drill / dummy rounds were somehow swapped, but that would just spook someone who wasn't expecting the gun to go "bang", but it wouldn't hurt anyone. This seems to have been swapping live rounds for drill / dummy rounds, when live rounds shouldn't have been on the set at all which is potentially far more sinister.

Edit:

I'm not going to try to defend whatever responsibility Alec Baldwin has as producer of the film, but the continued suggestions that he had an anger management issue and swopped the drill round for a live round himself without anyone on the set noticing, then deliberately shot the cinematographer just aren't worth replying to.

[mickkotlarski]

11 minutes ago, Stonker said:

For a revolver, yes, but it also depends on the length of the round - for example .38, .357, .380 auto and 9mm are all the same calibre but the ammunition isn't always interchangeable.  It's not just as simple as calibre, and while you can fire a round from gun 'A' in gun 'B' that doesn't mean you can fire a round from gun 'B' in gun 'A'.

There's no reports that suggest that, and it certainly shouldn't have happened with checks made both after and before any use.

Just to try to clear this up, "live and blank" do NOT "look the same". ABSOLUTELY NOT!

There's no possible way they can be confused - blank rounds have a crimped end, with no bullet, while live rounds have a bullet at the sharp end.

Where there's room for confusion is between movie drill / dummy rounds which are made to look like live rounds, but which are completely inert, and live rounds which are made to kill people  - what's not clear here is why live ammunition was on the set at all and how a live round could end up being fired.

Bad weapon safety could meant that blanks and drill / dummy rounds were somehow swapped, but that would just spook someone who wasn't expecting the gun to go "bang", but it wouldn't hurt anyone. This seems to have been swapping live rounds for drill / dummy rounds, when live rounds shouldn't have been on the set at all which is potentially far more sinister.

Edit:

I'm not going to try to defend whatever responsibility Alec Baldwin has as producer of the film, but the continued suggestions that he had an anger management issue and swopped the drill round for a live round himself without anyone on the set noticing, then deliberately shot the cinematographer just aren't worth replying to.

Thank you Stonker both for the knowledge and patience with regard to my own ignorance on the subject.

In summary besides being a sad state of affairs is what you said about live rounds being on the set. This is the fly in the soup for me.

I'm very skeptical about simply saying that Alex Baldwin is a murderer because of poor temperament or his political views and find it highly unlikely that this was a premeditated murder on his part. From what has transpired so far the most curious aspect is should live and blank be easily differentiated why wasn't it.

Oh one last question but with regards to magnums not revolvers. After a firearm is discharged multiple times could lack of cleaning produce misfiring (I imagine yes) and what are the major risks of firing a unserviced  firearm be it side arm, rifle or semi automatic.  

[Soidog9]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:59 PM, Thaiger said:

A prop gun malfunction on the set of a movie in Santa Fe, New Mexico in the US led to 1 death and 1 person in emergency care after being shot on set. The film “Rust”, a Western movie produced and starring Alec Baldwin and directed by Joel Souza was the site of the tragedy where what should have been a prop gun filled with blanks somehow managed to fire and hit 2 people. Sources say the accident occurred as a scene was being rehearsed or filmed with Alec Baldwin firing a prop gun. Police responded to a 911 emergency […]

The story 1 dead, 1 injured in prop gun shooting on Alec Baldwin movie set as seen on Thaiger News.

Read the full story

It is my understanding that movies using firearms must have an Armourer & Asst. Armourer to prepare and safeguard weapons.  In this case the 3 weapons were left outside on a table in front of the building where the filming was to take place.  These should have been ready & safe to use by the actors.  The Asst. Director picked up the gun and handed it to Baldwin and told him it was "cold" meaning it was safe to use.  Baldwin then acted out the scene and pointed the gun at the camera which is common when filming shoot outs.  Unfortunately the gun had a live round in it and hit the camera person & director.   In that the Armourers ( gun experts ) prepare all weapons the film company does not allow actors to mess with the guns.  Like or dislike Baldwin.....it is not his fault.

Seems to me the Armourer or the Asst. are at fault....... or possibly some disgruntled crew member put in a live bullet in the gun.   Time will tell.

 

[Soidog9]

On 10/23/2021 at 9:15 AM, ExpatPattaya said:

I cannot understand how the investigation is not looking into the "prop master" who in responsible for all props on a movie set? 

And why was Alec pointing a gun at the Director of Photography....weird

I thought all guns were just props these days and the sound was added later.  Actual blanks that make noise like a shot are unnecessary AFAIK  

I totally agree the Armourer & Assistant need to be investigated.  I cannot imagine why any live rounds were  on the movie set.

It is very common to point the gun at the cameraperson.  I am sure you have seen movies (  the James Bond intro or Dirty Harry movies as an example ) where the viewer sees the gun from the point of view of the person who the gun is aimed at.  In this case the Director of Photography was doing the filming.  The director was probably next to her checking the point of view. 

[riclag]

53 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Alex Baldwin has a long history of violent outburst and attacking random People in fits of rage (probably due to substance of alcohol abuse).

He's been on enough movie sets to know whats right and wrong I personally hope he serve's some serious jail time for the death of this young Woman it would probably do him good to spend some time with some real hardmen as I'm sure they would help him with his mood swings and his various addictions.

However I'm not holding my breath as his LIBERAL PREVILAGE will probably spare him any time behind bars.

Good point 

[Stonker]

35 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

From your personal experience Stonker is there a compulsory procedure to verify the ammunition used  before discharging and was it mandatory for designated firearms staff to lock away the gun when not used?

That all depends on the local laws on weapon and ammunition storage - I've never come across any special exemptions for film crew anywhere.

The only "designated firearms staff" was reportedly Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the "head armourer" and her duties would have been laid down by her contract.

[mickkotlarski]

4 minutes ago, Stonker said:

That all depends on the local laws on weapon and ammunition storage - I've never come across any special exemptions for film crew anywhere.

The only "designated firearms staff" was reportedly Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the "head armourer" and her duties would have been laid down by her contract.

Thank you. If you could give a brief summary on cleaning and maintenance of firearms when you get a moment that would be grand. Its not directly related to the topic as the movie set used a revolver but just need a few key points.

[longwood50]

 

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

I didn't say there was a "bullet part" inside the barrel, so please don't misquote me or misrepresent what I've written

Obviously you not only don't know anything about firearms and ammunition, you can't even recall your own post.  And I quote




It is possible for a gun barrel to have an obstruction.  It is not possible that whatever obstruction there is to be exiting as a projectile.  An obstruction inside a barrel will raise the chamber pressure to the point where the barrel and perhaps the chamber of the firearm is burst. 

A blank cartridge is exactly the same as a live round except instead of a "bullet" there is wadding typically paper or plastic.  That is expelled through the barrel when the gun is discharged.  It does not as you suggest "lodge" inside the barrel.  IMPOSSIBLE.  

Any object lodged inside a barrel would in all likelihood cause the firearm to burst at the time it was lodged inside the barrel given it would raise chamber pressure beyond the tolerance of the firearm.  

Unless the person was extremely close to the other person the paper or plastic wadding can not injure anyone as it quickly loses velocity and falls to the ground.  In all likelihood a firearm that injures or kills someone is loaded with live ammunition that has a "bullet" as part of the cartridge.  


 

Edited October 25, 2021 by longwood50

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, mickkotlarski said:

Thank you Stonker both for the knowledge and patience with regard to my own ignorance on the subject.

You're more than welcome, and unusually the only thing I had to do any checking on were reporting specifics of this incident itself - fitted in between cutting the grass!

What sometimes seems obvious, like digitally enhanced muzzle flashes and so on, can easily overlook things no "normal" person would think about like recoil.

1 hour ago, mickkotlarski said:

From what has transpired so far the most curious aspect is should live and blank be easily differentiated why wasn't it.

Exactly. While he may have considerable responsibility as producer, any suggestion that Alec Baldwin somehow deliberately loaded the gun with live rounds without the armourer, crew or anyone else noticing makes absolutely no sense at all.

1 hour ago, mickkotlarski said:

Oh one last question but with regards to magnums not revolvers. After a firearm is discharged multiple times could lack of cleaning produce misfiring (I imagine yes) and what are the major risks of firing a unserviced  firearm be it side arm, rifle or semi automatic.  

"Magnums" are a type of ammunition, which can be for revolvers or pistols (automatics) that are in turn designated "magnums", purpose made for that type of ammunition due to the extra pressure created by the ammunition with different bullet weights and different speeds - even though 9mm generally means for automatics and .357 generally means for revolvers, .44 magnum can be either. Even then, the same type of ammunition can have different weights and speeds, so although different ammunition can be fired from different weapons it's absolutely NOT a good idea or safe to do so unless the weapon's purpose made for it.

A "misfire" is actually "an ammunition malfunction, for example where a round is struck but fails to fire or, unusually,  where the percussion cap fires but fails to ignite the propellant (not unusual with some cheap Indian produced 9mm ammunition that the British Army bought during one of it's many mis-placed economy drives)." (my post #90669) although it's often wrongly confused with a stoppage.

There is some overlap, but a stoppage is often due to a "lack of cleaning" or if a weapon's "unserviced", but comparatively seldom with a revolver or bolt action rifle as there's so little to go wrong compared with automatics and you seldom fire the same sort of quantities of ammunition. The biggest problems are with the blowback system on automatics, where parts like gas plugs simply clog up, but it all depends on the weapon. AK47's and 74's, for example, are pretty much in a league of their own for reliability even after all sorts of misuse, while the British Army's SA80 and LSW are ... well ... at the opposite end of the spectrum .

 

 

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Obviously you not only don't know anything about firearms and ammunition, you can't even recall your own post.  And I quote




It is possible for a gun barrel to have an obstruction.  It is not possible that whatever obstruction there is to be exiting as a projectile.  An obstruction inside a barrel will raise the chamber pressure to the point where the barrel and perhaps the chamber of the firearm is burst. 

A blank cartridge is exactly the same as a live round except instead of a "bullet" there is wadding typically paper or plastic.  That is expelled through the barrel when the gun is discharged.  It does not as you suggest "lodge" inside the barrel.  IMPOSSIBLE.  

Any object lodged inside a barrel would in all likelihood cause the firearm to burst at the time it was lodged inside the barrel given it would raise chamber pressure beyond the tolerance of the firearm.  

Unless the person was extremely close to the other person the paper or plastic wadding can not injure anyone as it quickly loses velocity and falls to the ground.  In all likelihood a firearm that injures or kills someone is loaded with live ammunition that has a "bullet" as part of the cartridge.  


 

Longwood50. Thank you for the illustration. Stonkers description between the 2 was sound but good to physically visualize between blanks and live bullets.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Obviously you not only don't know anything about firearms and ammunition, you can't even recall your own post.  And I quote







 

That "quote" was about the Brandon Lee incident, as I've tried to explain to you,  not Jack Baldwin.

Although it could possibly apply to the Jack Baldwin case, I've never suggested it did.

I also clearly said "the head of one of the rounds (the "bullet" part) ...", which you even quoted, NOT that "there was a "bullet part" inside the barrel".

What I wrote and what you keep saying I wrote are two totally different things. I don't know if there's a language difficulty, but it's now becoming tedious.

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

It is possible for a gun barrel to have an obstruction.  It is not possible that whatever obstruction there is to be exiting as a projectile.  An obstruction inside a barrel will raise the chamber pressure to the point where the barrel and perhaps the chamber of the firearm is burst. 

This is simply not correct, and obviously so since it all depends on the size of the "obstruction" - in some cases it will "raise the chamber pressure to the point where the barrel and perhaps the chamber of the firearm is burst", if the obstruction is large enough, in others if the obstruction is small enough it will simply be blown out of the barrel.

In the Brandon Lee case, the "obstruction" was exactly the same calibre as a normal bullet from a live round for the weapon, because it WAS a bullet from a live round which the crew had fitted, badly, to an empty case to make a drill / dummy round.

Add a blank round, and the only difference between that and a live round is a gap of a mm or two between the bullet and the case which is exactly what happened with Brandon Lee (so the inquest found).

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

(snip) ... That is expelled through the barrel when the gun is discharged.  It does not as you suggest "lodge" inside the barrel.  IMPOSSIBLE.  

I've NEVER suggested that is what happened with Brandon Lee, nor have I suggested anything remotely like that. The bullet that killed Brandon Lee was from a home-made drill / dummy round that had previously been separated from the case and lodged in the barrel, which hadn't been checked properly (three times) and which was then fired out of the gun in exactly the same way as a normal bullet, but by a blank round rather than by a live round.

Flickering Myth may be able to explain it to you better than I can:

"Earlier in the shoot, a prop guy went down to their local prop shop to buy items for the production, during which he also purchased a set of live bullets which he took back to the set of The Crow. As live rounds should never be kept on a film set, the film’s prop master removed them and stored them in the trunk of his own car. As live bullets are never used in films, guns are loaded with blanks which are bullet cases filled with primer – a form of gunpowder – that creates the firing effect. Unlike a real bullet however, blanks have a cardboard tip on the end rather than a lead one, so that any impact the bullet would have once fired from a gun would be minimal, if any. During a scene in which a victim looks down the barrel of a gun being loaded, it was discovered that there were no blanks on set. In an effort to save time, the prop guys took the live bullets from the car and modified them into blanks, also creating dummy rounds – which didn’t have gunpowder but kept the lead tip – to be used for close-ups. Unbeknownst to anyone on set, when the dummy round was loaded into the gun for that shot, the lead tip got lodged in the barrel.

Two weeks later, on March 30th, that same gun was used for the scene where Brandon Lee was to be shot by Michael Massee’s character Funboy. The scene called for Lee to walk into his apartment, and then activate a squib – a packet of blood that would simulate the gunshot wound – once Massee fired the gun and fall to the ground. Everything went as planned. The gun went off, the squib went off, and Lee fell down. It wasn’t until after Proyas called cut that anyone realised Lee wasn’t moving. In fact, he was losing a tonne of blood from a silver dime sized bullet wound. Unfortunately, when the gun with the blank was fired it also propelled the lead tip that had been lodged there two weeks earlier, hitting Lee in his abdomen just above his naval.

Lee was rushed to New Hanover Regional Medical Center and operated on for six hours before being pronounced dead at 1:04am on March 31st, 1993. A two-month investigation followed, and the shooting was ruled an accident so no criminal charges were filed. Lee’s mother, Linda Cadwell, did file a civil suit against the studio which was settled out of court."

That was what the inquest found, which is what I've tried to explain, several times.

If you disagree, I suggest you contact North Carolina District Attorney Jerry Spivey and tell him that the inquest and the month long police investigation were wrong and that they need to re-open the case. I'm sorry if that sounds facetious, but I've tried my best to be patient and to explain it to you but you seem to want to read something I've never written and to be as offensive as you can be about it.

Edit:

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/d-a-announces-negligence-caused-brandon-lees-death

(sorry, but for some reason it didn't work as a link)

[Stonker]

29 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Longwood50. Thank you for the illustration. Stonkers description between the 2 was sound but good to physically visualize between blanks and live bullets.

The only thing I'd add to that, is that not all blanks are topped off by a paper or plastic wad; many are finished by crimping the end of the case instead - easy to find countless examples.

[mickkotlarski]

2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

The only thing I'd add to that, is that not all blanks are topped off by a paper or plastic wad; many are finished by crimping the end of the case instead - easy to find countless examples.

Cracking stuff. I'll have a good look before the cricket. Nobody can say for sure just yet about the cause of Alex Baldwins death. But it will be interesting. Thank you for the explanations. 

[Stonker]

2 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Cracking stuff. I'll have a good look before the cricket. Nobody can say for sure just yet about the cause of Alex Baldwins death. But it will be interesting. Thank you for the explanations. 

You're welcome.

As you said from the start it's all pure speculation, but unless it's a re-run-plus of Brandon Lee which doesn't seem possible let alone likely, the key question isn't so much how did he come to be given a weapon loaded with blanks, which would just have been a rude shock which didn't hurt anyone, but how did he come to be given a weapon loaded with a live round (or rounds) when there was no reason to have any live rounds on the set.

[23RD]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

. AK47's and 74's, for example, are pretty much in a league of their own for reliability even after all sorts of misuse, while the British Army's SA80 and LSW are ... well ... at the opposite end of the spectrum .

Off topic but a fact check the L85A3 & L86A3 have been show in trials to to be up there with the most reliable robust weapon systems on offer I believe your referring to the L85A1 & L86A1 prior to H&K taking an £80 million contract to modify the weapon system in the early 2000's.

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

You're welcome.

As you said from the start it's all pure speculation, but unless it's a re-run-plus of Brandon Lee which doesn't seem possible let alone likely, the key question isn't so much how did he come to be given a weapon loaded with blanks, which would just have been a rude shock which didn't hurt anyone, but how did he come to be given a weapon loaded with a live round (or rounds) when there was no reason to have any live rounds on the set.

From what I read, they said the crew was using the guns for target practice and that is why the live rounds were in it

[Marc26]

4 hours ago, 23RD said:

Alex Baldwin has a long history of violent outburst and attacking random People in fits of rage (probably due to substance of alcohol abuse).

He's been on enough movie sets to know whats right and wrong I personally hope he serve's some serious jail time for the death of this young Woman it would probably do him good to spend some time with some real hardmen as I'm sure they would help him with his mood swings and his various addictions.

However I'm not holding my breath as his LIBERAL PREVILAGE will probably spare him any time behind bars.

It's funny how the right wingnuts are butthurt Alec Baldwin made fun of their cult leader......

[Marc26]

4 hours ago, Soidog9 said:

It is my understanding that movies using firearms must have an Armourer & Asst. Armourer to prepare and safeguard weapons.  In this case the 3 weapons were left outside on a table in front of the building where the filming was to take place.  These should have been ready & safe to use by the actors.  The Asst. Director picked up the gun and handed it to Baldwin and told him it was "cold" meaning it was safe to use.  Baldwin then acted out the scene and pointed the gun at the camera which is common when filming shoot outs.  Unfortunately the gun had a live round in it and hit the camera person & director.   In that the Armourers ( gun experts ) prepare all weapons the film company does not allow actors to mess with the guns.  Like or dislike Baldwin.....it is not his fault.

Seems to me the Armourer or the Asst. are at fault....... or possibly some disgruntled crew member put in a live bullet in the gun.   Time will tell.

This is the most detailed account from the person who got shot but did not die

 

https://nypost.com/2021/10/25/alec-baldwin-was-practicing-pointing-revolver-at-camera-during-fatal-prop-gun-mishap/

[23RD]

4 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

funny how the right wingnuts are butthurt Alec Baldwin made fun of their cult leader......

And now the last laughs on him the only saving grace for him is if he goes to jail for the Manslaughter of this young Woman there won't be to many Con's that want to hurt his but at 60 years old (they'll just wanna hurt him).

[Marc26]

40 minutes ago, 23RD said:

And now the last laughs on him the only saving grace for him is if he goes to jail for the Manslaughter of this young Woman there won't be to many Con's that want to hurt his but at 60 years old (they'll just wanna hurt him).

Extremely intelligent post......

[23RD]

26 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Extremely intelligent post......

Thanks Marc buddy as we get older we get wiser.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, 23RD said:

Off topic but a fact check the L85A3 & L86A3 have been show in trials to to be up there with the most reliable robust weapon systems on offer I believe your referring to the L85A1 & L86A1 prior to H&K taking an £80 million contract to modify the weapon system in the early 2000's.

Maybe that's why so many other countries have bought the weapon ... or maybe not

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Marc26 said:

From what I read, they said the crew was using the guns for target practice and that is why the live rounds were in it

Anything's possible!

None of the standard rules on weapon safety seem to have been applied in any way.

[Marc26]

2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Anything's possible!

None of the standard rules on weapon safety seem to have been applied in any way.

No and that is where Baldwin will be on the hook, as executive producer

 

Your posts were interesting and informative, thanks