News Forum - 1 dead, 1 injured in prop gun shooting on Alec Baldwin movie set

[23RD]

15 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Why does that matter?

He's not in the UK

Neither am Marc Bud but I was just asking If any American OP's on the forum know what the procedure when this type of incident occurs as I know a couple of OP's have a Law enforcement background from their previous lives in The US.

[EdwardV]

15 minutes ago, thingamabob said:

Not the first time this has happened. Either this was a blank that went wrong, or it was a live round. If it was the latter there are a lot of questions to be answered.

It’s being reported as a live round. However that’s not been made officially. Makes sense since two people were hit. If it was a blank Baldwin would have had to be very close to both and it’s not likely two people hit. It’s also reported Baldwin called out why someone had given him a hot gun afterward. Slang for a weapon loaded with live rounds. The prop master wasn’t on the set. He was a member of the union and they all walked out when the production brought in non-union workers. Another strike in the lawsuit big win column. 

[Marc26]

4 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Neither am Marc Bud but I was just asking If any American OP's on the forum know what the procedure when this type of incident occurs as I know a couple of OP's have a Law enforcement background from their previous lives in The US.

Yeah that's why I answered it

He wouldn't be charged unless eyewitness said he intentionally shot them

 

Otherwise they would do an investigation and then charge anyone they feel broke the law 

 

In this case, I could see the producers being charged with negligence 

Possibly but probably not charged criminally 

 

Civil cases, they will be found guilty for sure 

 

 

[LoongFred]

I think they need to ask why he was pointing the gun at someone, if it wasn't something required by the scene.  I feel he was neglected in doing so. I'm  sure he's layered up so the truth may be hard to find.

[ExpatPattaya]

No one should have a loaded weapon or even a bullet on a movie set.  

Prop master is in charge of all props on a movie set, why would an assistant director hand you a gun??? 

[longwood50]

There appears to be some confusion over exactly what type of ammunition was in the gun.  The report are that is was "live" ammunition.  Well a blank cartridge is still live ammunition it just means there is no lead bullet.  It is possible for a blank cartridge fired at close enough range to kill someone.  The bullet still has some wadding that holds the gunpowder into place that will be discharged from the gun barrel when fired.  Also the concussion force from the bullet if close enough can be deadly. 

However I find it strange that two people were injured with one of them fatally.  That would seem to indicate that the cartridges in the gun were not only live but real cartridges with bullets.  

One way or another, the first rule of any gun is to treat it as if it is loaded, inspect the chamber, and most importantly never point any gun at anything you don't intend to shoot even as a prank. 

[JackIsAGoodBoy]

Union crew walked off the scene because of payment and safety issues and was replaced by a local crew. Apparently two mishaps already happened before the accident, according to Dailymail. Does not look good for Alec, the PRODUCER! Cheap bastard tried to cut corners every possible way he could and it backfired badly.

[Marc26]

8 hours ago, LoongFred said:

I think they need to ask why he was pointing the gun at someone, if it wasn't something required by the scene.  I feel he was neglected in doing so. I'm  sure he's layered up so the truth may be hard to find.

From what I read it was a "wide shot"

So many people are hovering around a scene when shooting, I could easily see the gun being misfired just a few feet the wrong way and hitting someone 

[LoongFred]

13 hours ago, Marc26 said:

From what I read it was a "wide shot"

So many people are hovering around a scene when shooting, I could easily see the gun being misfired just a few feet the wrong way and hitting someone 

Alex Baldwin is a major wokie progressive. He also has documented anger issues. Now it appears he is cheap and careless with staff. Not a great guy in my book.

He might be a good actor but are hiss tears real or is he trying to win sympathy. Good if this finishes his carrier. 

[Time_to_live]

1 hour ago, LoongFred said:

Alex Baldwin is a major wokie progressive. He also has documented anger issues. Now it appears he is cheap and careless with staff. Not a great guy in my book.

He might be a good actor but are hiss tears real or is he trying to win sympathy. Good if this finishes his carrier. 

LoongFred, you are judging Alec Baldwin based on your political stance and little facts about this case.  You show no empathy for a fellow human that has experienced a horrific accidental killing of another human.  Alec is devastated and the victims families are crushed.  You even suggest that Alec might be acting to win sympathy....you have a very cold heart.  

[LoongFred]

2 hours ago, Time_to_live said:

LoongFred, you are judging Alec Baldwin based on your political stance and little facts about this case.  You show no empathy for a fellow human that has experienced a horrific accidental killing of another human.  Alec is devastated and the victims families are crushed.  You even suggest that Alec might be acting to win sympathy....you have a very cold heart.  

No,

My opinion of him is based on his past actions. Do you remember his outrage regarding his daughter (13 yo at the time) or his dealings with others. 

Someone so outspoken on guns should be very aware of gun safety.

The victims are a true tragedy. 

[EdwardV]

 "I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone..." - Alex Baldwin September 22, 2017 tweet about a Huntington Beach police officer who killed a suspect who at the time was trying to take his weapon. The shooting was ruled justified. 

[Stonker]

On 10/22/2021 at 9:18 PM, mickkotlarski said:

I imagine a result of investigations will be revealed soon enough.

Very, very true and it's pointless to speculate or try to aportion any blame at all at this stage as some seem all too keen to do both here and in the media (not you, @mickkotlarski, I hasten to add ), but I have a reasonable amount of firearms experience including a little as a movie adviser so I'll try to answer some of the points that have been raised that may be of interest to some and which some may  not be aware of if it isn't their field.

[mickkotlarski]

6 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Very, very true and it's pointless to speculate or try to aportion any blame at all at this stage as some seem all too keen to do both here and in the media (not you, @mickkotlarski, I hasten to add ), but I have a reasonable amount of firearms experience including a little as a movie adviser so I'll try to answer some of the points that have been raised that may be of interest to some and which some may  not be aware of if it isn't their field.

Cheers Stonker. That would be appreciated. My firearms knowledge is limited but on the surface I can only think of live ammo either accidentally or (I would hope not) intentionally used and not blanks.

Absolutely feel free to pass on how you appraise investigations. 

 

[Stonker]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:53 PM, Soidog said:

I know Bruce Lee’s son Brandon died during the making of The Crow. 

On 10/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, Lawyers_Guns_and_Money said:

In the past some of these accidents were caused by debris being left in the gun from previous firing. I read that they did say that there was a live round, real bullet. Which has no business being on a movie set.

It was widely reported (and is still widely reported) that Bruce Lee's son, Brandon Lee, was killed by a "live round, real bullet"*, but this wasn't the case.

The gun he was killed by had been loaded with drill / dummy rounds** for a previous take, and afterwards although the gun had been unloaded it hadn't been cleared properly and the head of one of the rounds (the "bullet" part) had been dislodged and was still stuck in the barrel.

When the gun was re-loaded for his scene with blank rounds***, it again wasn't cleared properly before being given to one of the actors, and when it was aimed at him and fired the blank round propelled the old bullet that had been stuck in the barrel out of the gun with the same sort sort of force as a live round, hitting and killing him.

Three mistakes and very basic errors, none of which should have happened, and if any had been avoided then the accident wouldn't have happened:

1. After being used, even with drill rounds, the weapon should have been cleared properly by an armourer as well as unloaded before being put away, and that includes checking the barrel for debris.

2. Before being used again, before any sort of firing, the weapon should have been routinely cleaned and checked by an armourer, including cleaning the barrel with a cleaning rod or pull through.

3. Before loading the gun with blanks and handing the gun to an actor, the guns hould have been cleared again by an armourer.

Three very, very basic errors.

*: "live rounds" are "real bullets", as you rightly say, @Lawyers_Guns_and_Money, whatever type (regular, sniper, tracer, spotter tracer, full metal jacket, hollow point, tumbling, etc, etc). As you also rightly say, there is no reason at all for any live rounds of any description on a movie set.  Although very occasionally needed for some shoots, particularly with close ups of belt fed weapons, these shoots nearly always take place on a firing range, not a movie set.

**: "drill rounds", also called dummy rounds or show or display rounds, are completely inert rounds used for either training (doing "drills") or on movie sets for close ups of weapons and magazines being loaded and so on. Drill rounds in the military are immediately identifiable from live rounds even in the dark as they either have deep grooves in the casing, normally painted red, or a hole drilled through or cast into the casing. On a movie set and for a movie they obviously have to look like the real thing so they're outwardly nearly identical to live rounds, with the only difference usually being the code stamped into the base of the round.

In the incident where Brandon Lee was killed, the dummy rounds that had been used in the previous shoot weren't factory produced but had been made by the crew / armourers and they had been badly made so one of the bullets / heads separated from the case and remained stuck in the barrel.

***: "blank rounds" are rounds that simulate a round being fired with a similar flash, bang and recoil to live rounds, and with automatic / semi-automatic weapons (pistols, sub-machine guns, machine guns, etc) sufficient force from the gas to "blowback" the working parts to re-cock the weapon.

With "blowback" operated weapons they're fitted with a Blank Firing Attachment (BFA) that in the miltary screws on to the end of the barrel, usually painted yellow as a safety feature, that acts like a bullet to direct the gas and operate the "blowback" system rather than just exiting out of the end of the barrel; in the movies they use specially made barrels with the BFA built into the barrel for realism.

BFAs add an extra level of safety as they block the end of the barrel, so debris can't be fired out of the barrel.

In the movie "Rust" (this movie) BFAs wouldn't have been used as it was a 19th century Western so all the weapons used (revolvers, rifles, etc) would have been "old style" and reloaded manually, not automatically.

(Sorry if this is teaching some people to suck eggs or sounds as if I'm talking down to anyone, as obviously while some people may be better informed than me others may not and may find it informative)

 

 

 

[Stonker]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:35 AM, Marc26 said:

With even 2 misfirings of the gun

The two incidents are widely reported as "misfirings", but according to recent reports evidently they weren't "misfirings" at all.

A "misfiring" is an ammunition malfunction, for example where a round is struck but fails to fire or, unusually,  where the percussion cap fires but fails to ignite the propellant (not unusual with some cheap Indian produced 9mm ammunition that the British Army bought during one of it's many mis-placed economy drives).

Both these incidents, involving Jack Baldwin's stand-ins with the same weapon, were reportedly when the weapon was supposed to be "cold" or unloaded but instead was "hot" and loaded with blanks, so they weren't misfires as such but were what are called Negligent Discharges (ND's) or Accidental Discharges (AD's).

Both these incidents reportedly happened on the previous Saturday, so Alec Baldwin's was the third such incident in a week.

Any and all of these incidents should have resulted in all takes involving weapons being fired being suspended until they'd been properly investigated but this never happened.

Once is a mistake, twice could be an unfortunate coincidence, but three in under a week just doesn't seem credible as mistakes, particularly when the third occasion involved either a live round or dangerous debris in the barrel as well - and a live round sounds more likely at this stage as whatever it was went through the cinematographer's chest and out of her back before hitting the director in the shoulder.

[longwood50]

45 minutes ago, Stonker said:

The gun he was killed by had been loaded with drill / dummy rounds** for a previous take, and afterwards although the gun had been unloaded it hadn't been cleared properly and the head of one of the rounds (the "bullet" part) had been dislodged and was still stuck in the barrel.

It is obvious you know nothing about firearms.  I am a former target shooter and reloaded my own ammunition.  A blank round has no head to it.  It is strictly the brass cartridge, with a primer, gunpowder, and some wadding to secure the gunpowder into the cartridge base. 

If as you say there was a "bullet part" inside the barrel that means two things.  First there would have been a real cartridge rather than a blank cartridge used in the gun just prior to Mr. Baldwin using it.  Not likely.  Second and more importantly any item lodged inside the barrel would cause the barrel of the gun to split because of the excess pressure. 

See attached photo. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by longwood50

[Stonker]

On 10/23/2021 at 9:15 AM, ExpatPattaya said:

I thought all guns were just props these days and the sound was added later.  Actual blanks that make noise like a shot are unnecessary AFAIK  

No, @ExpatPattaya, that sounds as if it should be the case as the muzzle flash and the bang can easily be digitally enhanced and added later but the problem is that unless you use blanks rather than just caps then there's no recoil and it looks completely unrealistic.

With automatic / blowback operated guns you need blanks and a BFA (see my post above) to operate the re-loading system - although it can be spring operated with replicas, it looks unrealistic without the recoil. 

That doesn't apply in this movie as it's a 19th century Western so re-loading's manual, but those weapons all have a lot of recoil due to the design and the old propellant (powder), whether they're revolvers or rifles.

The problem's the recoil, or lack of it, not the sound or muzzle flash.

[mickkotlarski]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

Very, very true and it's pointless to speculate or try to aportion any blame at all at this stage as some seem all too keen to do both here and in the media (not you, @mickkotlarski, I hasten to add ), but I have a reasonable amount of firearms experience including a little as a movie adviser so I'll try to answer some of the points that have been raised that may be of interest to some and which some may  not be aware of if it isn't their field.

Stonker. Q? with regard to the actual revolver. In the case of a movie gun is it compulsory to have a reducer within the barrel of a revolver? So as not to allow full live rounds to be housed in a physically smaller circumference designed purely for blanks?

I'm assuming that a reducer could be inserted/incorporated into variuos caliber firearms. For now I suspect gross negligence but don't have enough knowledge on what procedures motion picture sets follow.

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

It is obvious you know nothing about firearms.  I am a former target shooter and reloaded my own ammunition.  A blank round has no head to it.  It is strictly the brass cartridge, with a primer, gunpowder, and some wadding to secure the gunpowder into the cartridge base.

I'm not going to go into an argument about this, as it's what I spent all my working life doing and the inquest into Brandon Lee's death is readily available to confirm exactly what I've said about it here.

Blank rounds are as I described - I never suggested in any way that they had a "head".

19 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

If as you say there was a "bullet part" inside the barrel that means two things.  First there would have been a real cartridge rather than a blank cartridge used in the gun just prior to Mr. Baldwin using it.  Not likely.  Second and more importantly any item lodged inside the barrel would cause the barrel of the gun to split because of the excess pressure. 

I didn't say there was a "bullet part" inside the barrel, so please don't misquote me or misrepresent what I've written, or take what I've said about the Brandon Lee incident (which is what you've quoted from) and relate that to anything I've said about the Jack Baldwin incident (which is what you're now talking about).

They're two different incidents and although it's possible that something similar happened there's nothing to indicate that that's the case - although it's obviously a possibility, however unlikely.

So ..."First there would have been a real cartridge rather than a blank cartridge used in the gun just prior to Mr. Baldwin using it" is not correct in the Brandon Lee incident, as the bullet lodged in the barrel was from a drill / dummy round, as I'd explained, which the crew had made themselves rather than use a factory made drill round.

And ... "Second and more importantly any item lodged inside the barrel would cause the barrel of the gun to split because of the excess pressure" is also not correct as in the Brandon Lee incident the "item lodged inside the barrel" was a bullet of the correct calibre for the weapon so there was no "excess pressure".

All of this  was detailed in Brandon Lee's inquest, so it's readily available although it's often mis-reported that he was shot by a "live round", which isn't correct.

 

46 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

Your photos are of damage caused by excess pressure by debris in the barrel which stopped the gases escaping; that isn't what happened in the Brandon Lee case, since as I've explained the bullet previously stuck in the barrel was the correct calibre for the weapon.

I'm sure that with your experience you have plenty that is useful to contribute here, particularly with reloading your own ammunition which Brandon Lee's crew didn't do correctly which ws why the bullet head came off the dummy round, and I'm perfectly happy to be contradicted by anyone, but please don't be unnecessarily offensive, and please don't  take a point I made specifically about the Brandon Lee incident and post it as if I was talking about the Jack Baldwin incident, and then misquote me with something I didn't say.

 

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Stonker. Q? with regard to the actual revolver. In the case of a movie gun is it compulsory to have a reducer within the barrel of a revolver? So as not to allow full live rounds to be housed in a physically smaller circumference designed purely for blanks?

I'm assuming that a reducer could be inserted/incorporated into variuos caliber firearms. For now I suspect gross negligence but don't have enough knowledge on what procedures motion picture sets follow.

No, and potentially that could be very dangerous leading to the result @longwood50 has described and illustrated in his photos.

Unlike an automatic, the rounds in a revolver don't go into the barrel part of the weapon at all but remain in the cylinder until fired when the case stays in the cylinder and the bullet goes from the cylinder into the barrel, so whether the rounds are live or blanks makes no difference as far as putting them in the cylinder goes.

One option which was tried was to produce blank firing copies of a unique calibre, for which there were no commercially available live rounds, but the problem was that they simply didn't "look" like the real thing as they were either too big or too small.

[Stonker]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, EdwardV said:

Slang for a weapon loaded with live rounds.

I don't want to nit-pick, but actually slang in the movies for a gun loaded with blanks, not "live rounds" which should never be on a set. Contrary to what has been said here and is sometimes reported, a blank cartridge isn't "live ammunition", and blank rounds aren't "live rounds".

On 10/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, EdwardV said:

The prop master wasn’t on the set. He was a member of the union and they all walked out when the production brought in non-union workers. Another strike in the lawsuit big win column. 

"He" is actually a "she", Hannah Gutierrez Reed, a 24 year old "former model and actress", daughter of a well known Hollywood firearms expert, who had only been head armourer on one movie before for a month ("The Old Way"), where she was the only armourer and taken on at the last minute , which had wrapped just before the Rust shoot and who had said before taking the post as armourer for The Old Way that she had only become interested in being an armourer in recent years and that she "was really nervous about it" and "almost didn't take the job because I wasn't sure if I was ready". Shooting was reportedly briefly stopped on The Old Way when crew stepped in due to issues with her gun handling.

She reportedly didn't walk off the set, but personally prepared all three guns, one of which was picked up by assistant director Dave Halls as there were limited crew, which he then handed to Alec Baldwin, calling out "cold gun".

I can understand how weapon safety can have been so bad that a gun loaded with blanks was handed over instead of an unloaded weapon or a weapon loaded with drill rounds.  What I can't understand, though, is how it can have been loaded with live rounds when there was no reason for any live rounds to be on the set.

 

 

[AlexPTY]

after Brandon Lee was killed in the same way, nobody was accountable. Let's see what will happen with Alec Baldwin who has a history of strongly opposing an NRA

[mickkotlarski]

38 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No, and potentially that could be very dangerous leading to the result @longwood50 has described and illustrated in his photos.

Unlike an automatic, the rounds in a revolver don't go into the barrel part of the weapon at all but remain in the cylinder until fired when the case stays in the cylinder and the bullet goes from the cylinder into the barrel, so whether the rounds are live or blanks makes no difference as far as putting them in the cylinder goes.

One option which was tried was to produce blank firing copies of a unique calibre, for which there were no commercially available live rounds, but the problem was that they simply didn't "look" like the real thing as they were either too big or too small.

So in essence the chamber dictates the caliber of the ammo inserted regardless of whether the round be live or blank? Hence the physical dimensions would be the same for both with regard to the relevant firearm so as to avoid any over pressure that could rupture the barrel.

Not to implicate conspiracy theory but could the firearm in question (Alec Baldwin's case) be used elsewhere between filming takes and then returned with rounds swapped as the revolvers ammo both live and blank look the same?

From your personal experience Stonker is there a compulsory procedure to verify the ammunition used  before discharging and was it mandatory for designated firearms staff to lock away the gun when not used?

 

[Stonker]

9 minutes ago, AlexPTY said:

after Brandon Lee was killed in the same way, nobody was accountable. Let's see what will happen with Alec Baldwin who has a history of strongly opposing an NRA

It's not known yet if she was "killed in the same way" or not, and it seems unlikely as his death involved such an unfortunate set of circumstances. The District Attorney ruled that the death was due to negligence, but no charges were filed against the production company.