Colin Powell has died from covid complications

[PBS]

12 hours ago, JerseyBKK said:

Another Covid fatality. But he was double-vaxxed. How is this possible? It's all based on SCIENCE isn't it?

A flu vaccine is once a year but these Covid vaccines are once every 6 months? Or once every 4 months?

Powell was suffering from severely compromised immune system due to cancer and Parkinson's disease. It has been a constant that Covid vaccination efficiency is compromised if suffering from pre-existing chronic illnesses.

[JerseyBKK]

8 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

I think that describing any elected POTUS as an "enemy of the state" can only best be described as an opinion.

Most of those elected POTUS in the last 30 years and almost all members of Congress could be classified as "enemy of the state".

[KaptainRob]

20 minutes ago, PBS said:

Powell was suffering from severely compromised immune system due to cancer and Parkinson's disease. It has been a constant that Covid vaccination efficiency is compromised if suffering from pre-existing chronic illnesses.

In exactly the same way as pneumonia exacerbates chronic illness, Covid may have have hastened his passing, end of story.  He was 84 after all.

I note the BBC put out an excellent story on Powell's life and achievements only to sour it with the final paragraph "Powell's life may be somewhat overshadowed by his cause of death, as he now ranks as the most prominent American to succumb to Covid-19."

[ExpatPattaya]

Doesn't anyone just die of old age anymore? 

78 years is Life expectancy in America, he made it to 84

[ninja]

24 minutes ago, JerseyBKK said:

Most of those elected POTUS in the last 30 years and almost all members of Congress could be classified as "enemy of the state".

yes.   and please do not forget that all those enemies are just the faces in front of the billionaires that really control all the money and power..... and "policies"

[ninja]

3 minutes ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Doesn't anyone just die of old age anymore? 

78 years is Life expectancy in America, he made it to 84

yes,  i believe "complications of old age"  might be more accurate.     

[longwood50]

Not my favorite person since rule 1 in the military is loyalty.  And Collin Powell feigned to be a Republican but stabbed them in the back each time. 

I did like his very concise analysis of entering the war in Iraq when he said just remember it is like the figurines in the china shop.  If you break it, you own it.  

Also he was right on when he talked about the role of the U.S. military.  The politicians wanted them to act like police and bring law and order.  He stated, the military only does two things well, blow things up and kill people. 

[PBS]

2 hours ago, KaptainRob said:

In exactly the same way as pneumonia exacerbates chronic illness, Covid may have have hastened his passing, end of story.  He was 84 after all.

I note the BBC put out an excellent story on Powell's life and achievements only to sour it with the final paragraph "Powell's life may be somewhat overshadowed by his cause of death, as he now ranks as the most prominent American to succumb to Covid-19."

Yes, rather odd comment. However, a quote from a BBC article from three hours ago...

"he would say himself that his own legacy had been damaged by a speech to the United Nations Security Council which used faulty intelligence to back the invasion of Iraq.

 

"It was painful. It's painful now," Powell told ABC News in 2005"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58957273

 

 

[Smithydog]

I would suggest this is not the person to focus debate around benefits or not of vaccination. General Powell, as has also been stated by news reports, was a sufferer of Multiple Myeloma, a form of Cancer. Sadly one effect is how it attacks the immune system as follows:

 

"Decreased ability to fight infection, from a shortage of white blood cells and the body’s inability to respond to infection because of the presence of abnormal antibodies"

https://www.cancer.net/cancer-types/multiple-myeloma/introduction

Hence even if younger than his 84 years, it is equally unlikely he would have achieved any herd style immunity and the vaccinations only helped (if anything) to prop up an already badly damaged immune system against such an insidious virus.

To me, he was an example of a man firm in his convictions, apologetic for his own faults, yet widely liked and admired by both sides of politics as indicated by being a recipient of the Congressional Gold Medal, and twice awarded the presidential Medal of Freedom, once with distinction, by both a Republican President and a Democratic President.

His mark of honesty was his continued acknowledgement of the blemish on a career caused by likely false intelligence given to him over the WMD situation. He didn't blame others, just accepted the blame himself for wrongly making presentations that were, unlikely known by him at the time apart from a "gut" feeling", supported by such false information. That perspective of responsibility  alone is highly unusual when compared against many politicians and others including media people today. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33957894

He may not be so liked now by people for continuing to express his honest views. But at least they were both...his and honestly expressed. A married family man of nearly 60 years is an achievement in itself so many will not attain.

Rest in Peace, Colin Powell.

 

[Soidog]

7 hours ago, Fluke said:

The USA gave Iraq the go ahead to invade Kuwait 

Iraq (Saddam) was stupid enough to believe the US wasn’t interested if he invaded Kuwait. History proved that to be wrong. Arse kicked and sent packing back home. Job only half done at the time unfortunately. Thankfully he was finally pulled out of his cowardly hole in the ground and executed many years later. 

[JohninDublin]

5 hours ago, JerseyBKK said:

Most of those elected POTUS in the last 30 years and almost all members of Congress could be classified as "enemy of the state".

The problem I have with statements like that, is that it most associated with Fascists, Populists and Totalitarianism.

[JohninDublin]

7 hours ago, Fluke said:

The USA gave Iraq the go ahead to invade Kuwait 

We don't seem to agree too often on matters political, but you are spot on the money there. Had the US Ambassador not given the go-ahead, the war would not have happened. That in turn would not have led the "Hawks" to decide that Iraq was "unfinished business". 

I am not in favour of despots like Saddam, but at least he kept a lid on things. I don't see how ISIS would have taken hold if Saddam had remained in power, and though it's probably not the right thing to say, I would rather that Saddam had stayed in power than the horrors of ISIS that followed and the whole regional destabilisation that later ensued.

 

 

[Fluke]

40 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Iraq (Saddam) was stupid enough to believe the US wasn’t interested if he invaded Kuwait. History proved that to be wrong. Arse kicked and sent packing back home. Job only half done at the time unfortunately. Thankfully he was finally pulled out of his cowardly hole in the ground and executed many years later. 

As I recall , Iraq and Kuwait had some disputed territory and Saddam discussed it with the USA , Saddam claimed that parts on Kuwait belonged to Iraq .

   The USA gave him the green light for Iraq to get their territory back and for some reason he took the whole of Kuwait . 

  Whether he did that with the USAs agreement or not , isn't publicly known 

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Fluke said:

Whether he did that with the USAs agreement or not , isn't publicly known 

No, though the actions of the US would surely suggest they didn’t. If it was a trick then why stop at kicking him out of Kuwait. 

[Fluke]

7 minutes ago, Soidog said:

No, though the actions of the US would surely suggest they didn’t. If it was a trick then why stop at kicking him out of Kuwait. 

The after math led to the USA invading Iraq and the removal of Saddam after falsely accusing him of having WMD's .

   Maybe that was the intention all along ?

[palooka]

18 minutes ago, Fluke said:

As I recall , Iraq and Kuwait had some disputed territory and Saddam discussed it with the USA , Saddam claimed that parts on Kuwait belonged to Iraq .

   The USA gave him the green light for Iraq to get their territory back and for some reason he took the whole of Kuwait . 

  Whether he did that with the USAs agreement or not , isn't publicly known 

Kuwait was and probably still is a bunch of spoilt rich brats that wouldn't listen to reason so I think he gave the go ahead to teach them a lesson.

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Fluke said:

The after math led to the USA invading Iraq and the removal of Saddam after falsely accusing him of having WMD's .

   Maybe that was the intention all along ?

Well during and after the first gulf war, I think there was a feeling that the action, while proportionate, had not weakened Saddam's forces sufficiently. Many believed regime change should have been the objective at that time. Unfortunately it took another 12 years before that was fully achieved.  

[gummy]

Just now, Soidog said:

Well during and after the first gulf war, I think there was a feeling that the action, while proportionate, had not weakened Saddam's forces sufficiently. Many believed regime change should have been the objective at that time. Unfortunately it took another 12 years before that was fully achieved.  

And just look at it now ? Another typical American example of not considering what happens afterwards. They never learn as Afghanistan has recently shown. 

[Smithydog]

Hi Members,

If you could link you comments in with the topic, that would be appreciated. After all, not all members may immediately understand the connection between your comments and the topic about the late General Colin Powell.

Those who know of him may not even know of or understand and appreciate the references to Iraq and Kuwait and his roles and service. Just be helpful for others if we tied it all together!

Thanks

Moderator

[Soidog]

4 minutes ago, gummy said:

And just look at it now ? Another typical American example of not considering what happens afterwards. They never learn as Afghanistan has recently shown. 

Yes I agree @gummy, but Powell was a man who said that you should never get in to a war unless you know how to get out of it. A lesson I’m sure he learned in Vietnam.  Had the Americans heeded that advice when they went in to Afghanistan in 2001, they would have been out within a year. By April/May of 2002 it was mission accomplished and they should have made plans to depart. Oddly enough, it was the distraction of Iraq that allowed mission creep to occur in Afghanistan. 
 

What I would add, is that this seems to be a problem for Western forces. We go in to a country to deal with a dangerous tyrant or stop a country falling in to the wrong hands, and we assume local people will want our form of democracy and rule of law. It’s an arrogance based on the assumption we are doing the moral work of god. We then become shocked and surprised local people don’t grasp the opportunity and continue insurgency. Mind you, the Russians and many others also failed in Afghanistan.
 

World is a mess! 

[gummy]

4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Yes I agree @gummy, but Powell was a man who said that you should never get in to a war unless you know how to get out of it. A lesson I’m sure he learned in Vietnam.  Had the Americans heeded that advice when they went in to Afghanistan in 2001, they would have been out within a year. By April/May of 2002 it was mission accomplished and they should have made plans to depart. Oddly enough, it was the distraction of Iraq that allowed mission creep to occur in Afghanistan. 
 

What I would add, is that this seems to be a problem for Western forces. We go in to a country to deal with a dangerous tyrant or stop a country falling in to the wrong hands, and we assume local people will want our form of democracy and rule of law. It’s an arrogance based on the assumption we are doing the moral work of god. We then become shocked and surprised local people don’t grasp the opportunity and continue insurgency. Mind you, the Russians and many others also failed in Afghanistan.
 

World is a mess! 

Colin Powell I think was exceptional in his perception of war or the need for it. Not many like him unfortunately, but I guess him being of Jamaican parentage alienated him to many Americans unfortunately

[PBS]

4 hours ago, Fluke said:

As I recall , Iraq and Kuwait had some disputed territory and Saddam discussed it with the USA , Saddam claimed that parts on Kuwait belonged to Iraq .

   The USA gave him the green light for Iraq to get their territory back and for some reason he took the whole of Kuwait . 

  Whether he did that with the USAs agreement or not , isn't publicly known 

Bush Snr gave the nod to an uprising against Saddam, after Saddam's withdrawal from Kuwait for which the US provided zero support which led to thousands of deaths across Iraq. Saddam also fooled the US to permit the use of Iraqi military helicopters in the no fly zones which were then used for the massacres. Personally I don't recall any apology from the US for the betrayal which created immense suffering for the Iraqi people.

https://www.cfr.org/blog/remembering-iraqi-uprising-twenty-five-years-ago

Edited October 19, 2021 by PBS

[Stonker]

9 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Not my favorite person since rule 1 in the military is loyalty. 

He was an honourable man of the utmost integrity and loyalty - loyal to his beliefs and his country, and it doesn't get much better than that.

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, palooka said:

Kuwait was and probably still is a bunch of spoilt rich brats that wouldn't listen to reason so I think he gave the go ahead to teach them a lesson.

Just to put Kuwaitis in perspective from an Arab POV, when I was working in the Middle East in one of the Gulf Armies just prior to and during the first Gulf War I was told a joke about Kuwaitis by one of the Arab officers not long before going into Kuwait.

A Kuwaiti, a Frenchman and an Englishman were discussing wives and whether making love to them was a duty or a pleasure. The Frenchman said that it was obviously a pleasure, as it was making love; the Englishman said that it was obviously a duty, to procreate and carry on the family name.  The Kuwaiti was confused then finally decided that it had to be a pleasure, since if it was a duty he'd be paying a Pakistani to do it.

Sorry to digress, particularly as that doesn't do justice to my respect for Colin Powell who took every decision he did for the right reasons even if the reasons turned out to be wrong through no fault of his own.

I'm sure he'd like to think that his lasting legacy wasn't what he said or did about Iraq or Kuwait over GW's 1 or 2, but his doctrine which he summed up as:

"Well, the Powell doctrine ... isn't a doctrine in any Army manual. It's just the way in which I looked at military operations — says make sure you have a clear political objective and make sure you bring all the tools of national power to bear — economic, financial, political and military, if necessary.

And if you find it necessary to use military force, send in a force that will get you decisive results. I never used overwhelming but decisive. You know what you're going after and you're going to put the force behind it."

 

[Fluke]

4 hours ago, gummy said:

Colin Powell I think was exceptional in his perception of war or the need for it. Not many like him unfortunately, but I guess him being of Jamaican parentage alienated him to many Americans unfortunately

Yes, that was just a guess , nothing factual .