Important rules and behaviours for driving in Thailand

[cowslip]

On 1/20/2022 at 7:45 PM, JamesR said:

If I travel to china and spend ten years traveling to all parts and I notice most people are Chinese I can safely assume most people are chinese. 
 

I have noticed on every car journey I have made over the last thirty years in Thailand the driving standard is poor and dangerous. I have see a number of people killed and injured. 
 

I can safely state Thai driving skills are poor for whatever reason that is and is a major contributor to the high death rate.  That is a logical co conclusion. 
 

I have observed while driving for decades in the Uk the standard of driving and adherence to rules is a higher standard. There are relatively fewer deaths. I therefore conclude that is a major contributor to low road deaths. 
 

if you think a vehicle traveling the wrong way down a highway and all the other poor driving incidents I see every time I drive do not contribute to the high number of deaths then you are illogical. 

"if you think a vehicle traveling the wrong way down a highway and all the other poor driving incidents I see every time I drive do not contribute to the high number of deaths then you are illogical. " - It's counterintuitive, I agree, but if you look at that vehicle, it didn't have an accident, did it? 

The Stats are used on THOUSANDS of incidents and the factor is NORMAL human error.....

 

 

It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories. 

 

First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows!

 

Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[1]

 

Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas"). 

 

Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get through and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments and they fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”.

 

 

[1] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)

 

"I have noticed on every car journey I have made over the last thirty years in Thailand the driving standard is poor and dangerous. I have see a number of people killed and injured. " -  this is anecdotal evidence - you don't appear to understand how inaccurate this is.

 

"I can safely state Thai driving skills are poor for whatever reason that is and is a major contributor to the high death rate.  That is a logical co conclusion." Sadly you can't, this is totally subjective and anecdotal again.

 

 

[cowslip]

I'm not sure that people here realise what confirmation bias is - as there appear to be several examples on this thread

furthermore there are examples of cognitive dissonance too - unit you take this into account you won't understand the argument...

 

 

confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers.

 

cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.) E.G – when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true – you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-term unfounded belief…. and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. The most common sign of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it.

 

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. 

 

[JamesR]

15 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

"if you think a vehicle traveling the wrong way down a highway and all the other poor driving incidents I see every time I drive do not contribute to the high number of deaths then you are illogical. " - It's counterintuitive, I agree, but if you look at that vehicle, it didn't have an accident, did it? 

The Stats are used on THOUSANDS of incidents and the factor is NORMAL human error.....

It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories. 

First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows!

Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[1]

Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas"). 

Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get through and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments and they fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”.

[1] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)

"I have noticed on every car journey I have made over the last thirty years in Thailand the driving standard is poor and dangerous. I have see a number of people killed and injured. " -  this is anecdotal evidence - you don't appear to understand how inaccurate this is.

"I can safely state Thai driving skills are poor for whatever reason that is and is a major contributor to the high death rate.  That is a logical co conclusion." Sadly you can't, this is totally subjective and anecdotal again.

All of the above is correct, but driving down the wrong way down a road also causes accidents, why do you not think it is a problem?

We should all do it then?

[cowslip]

6 minutes ago, JamesR said:

why do you not think it is a problem?

Come on! Think about what I just wrote.

Do you seriously think that Thailand's road safety problems are down to people driving the wrong way down a road? (which incidentally is something most Thai road users are familiar with)

Edited January 22, 2022 by Khunwilko

[JamesR]

40 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

Come on! Think about what I just wrote.

Do you seriously think that Thailand's road safety problems are down to people driving the wrong way down a road? (which incidentally is something most Thai road users are familiar with)

"Come on! Think about what I just wrote."

We do but you ignore everything written and then paste in the same reply, disregarding anything else anyone else has written, that is pointless.

And I think it is funny you think it is OK to drive down the wrong side of a road and it does not add risk to road accidents.

I suppose you think it is OK not to wear a crash helmet because many of us see it happening on a daily basis but we can not be seening the correct thing as we have learnt to be biased, so funny. 

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Khunwilko said:

Traveling the wrong way down a highway.....NORMAL human error.....???? 5555

 

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Khunwilko said:

Come on! Think about what I just wrote.

Do you seriously think that Thailand's road safety problems are down to people driving the wrong way down a road? (which incidentally is something most Thai road users are familiar with)

Yes. Unfortunately a large section Thai road users are familiar with driving the wrong way down a road.

[JamesR]

17 minutes ago, Fester said:

Yes. Unfortunately a large section Thai road users are familiar with driving the wrong way down a road.

I wonder if landing in the opposite direction on a runway to what a flight control has instructed is dangerous?

There seems to be something about Thailand which causes people to lose their sense of safety amongst the tourists when in Phuket for instance.

I see farang families on one motorbike in busy traffic, the dad is controlling the bike, the mum sitting at the back and the kid acting as an air bag in front of the dad, they would never dream of doing that back at home.

I suppose riding the wrong way down a one way street does not seem a big deal especially after watching the police do it. 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

I wonder if landing in the opposite direction on a runway to what a flight control has instructed is dangerous?

There seems to be something about Thailand which causes people to lose their sense of safety amongst the tourists when in Phuket for instance.

I see farang families on one motorbike in busy traffic, the dad is controlling the bike, the mum sitting at the back and the kid acting as an air bag in front of the dad, they would never dream of doing that back at home.

I suppose riding the wrong way down a one way street does not seem a big deal especially after watching the police do it. 

It's when the rider and passengers are actually facing the correct way that it gets really interesting!

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

On 1/21/2022 at 2:27 AM, JamesR said:

Every person in the world is a racist to some extent whether they admit it or not by the current definition of racism which is a shame.

I suppose what people are saying is the vast number of vehicles on Thai roads are driven by Thais, the vast number of drivers in farang-countries are farang drivers and so if Thailand has fourteen times the number of roads deaths than farang countries then they must be bad driving standards for whatever reason.

If that is racist then everything anyone says is racist. 

Have you ever bothered to check how many motorcycles in the UK vs how many motorcycles in Thailand? 

When you put such huge number of motorcycles and cars together, you tend to have problems. Hence why 80% of the death in Thailand are riders, and if you check road deaths from private cars it's not that far off the UK's and lower then the US'!

[JamesR]

2 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Have you ever bothered to check how many motorcycles in the UK vs how many motorcycles in Thailand? 

When you put such huge number of motorcycles and cars together, you tend to have problems. Hence why 80% of the death in Thailand are riders, and if you check road deaths from private cars it's not that far off the UK's and lower then the US'!

I don't know if that is all correct regarding the same number of road deaths by private cars.

If you say of the 24000 people killed in Thailand a year on the the roads 80% of deaths are by motorcycles that means 20% are by car that is still 4800 people by car, the total in the UK including bikes, cars and pedestrians is 1700.

I personally see one road accident every five years in the UK and I see one accident a week in Thailand and that is over a 30 year period so I can't believe the numbers are the same.

Others including Thais living in the Uk say the same thing to me as well.

Plus you would think that as there are a lot more motorbikes in Thailand then people would drive more carefully and not drive the wrong way down a road.

 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

13 minutes ago, JamesR said:

If you say of the 24000 people killed in Thailand a year on the the roads 80% of deaths are by motorcycles that means 20% are by car that is still 4800 people by car, the total in the UK including bikes, cars and pedestrians is 1700.

Only slightly more than the UK (double, ok). And slightly less than that of the "number 1 country" (USA). 

13 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I personally see one road accident every five years in the UK and I see one accident a week in Thailand and that is over a 30 year period so I can't believe the numbers are the same.

Would you believe me if I said I've only ever witnessed a knocked over truck as an accident in Thailand. In 3 years that I've been here, and have driven around 200k km in Thai roads in this time. But anyway, my personal anecdotes, or yours, matter nothing. 

13 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Plus you would think that as there are a lot more motorbikes in Thailand then people would drive more carefully and not drive the wrong way down a road.

Sure. But as you can see, that's not the case.

Edited January 22, 2022 by ctxa

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, ctxa said:

Only slightly more than the UK (double, ok). And slightly less than that of the "number 1 country" (USA). 

Would you believe me if I said I've only ever witnessed a knocked over truck as an accident in Thailand. In 3 years that I've been here, and have driven around 200k km in Thai roads in this time. But anyway, my personal anecdotes, or yours, matter nothing. 

Sure. But as you can see, that's not the case.

I have driven 50,000 kms there and I have seen all sorts of accidents.

Plus two farang neighbours were both killed on separate motorbikes accidents on different days and each left a family behind.

I think personal anecdotes do matter, if lots of us are seeing lots of accidents in different countries then it does say something about the dangers of driving in a particular country. 

Plus I could have had dozens of accidents in Thailand by now if I wasn't driving in a very defensive way, driving in the UK is a doddle by comparison. 

I am not knocking Thailand as I love the weather, food, people, a whole list of things but driving there is dangerous. 

[cowslip]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

I think personal anecdotes do matter, if lots of us are seeing lots of accidents in different countries then it does say something about the dangers of driving in a particular country. 

No it doesn't and it is confirmation bias.

I'v driven over 500,000 km in Thailand and in UK I used to drive up to 70,000 MILES per year - I have seen loads of crashes over there too. France - same - Italy same. The FACT is that UK and Thailand have similar numbers of crashes - yet the Thai death rate is ten times higher - how do you explain that?

 

You are totally over whelmed by conformation bias. - with a touch of cognitive dissonance.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Khunwilko

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

No it doesn't and it is confirmation bias.

I'v driven over 500,000 km in Thailand and in UK I used to drive up to 70,000 MILES per year - I have seen loads of crashes over there too. France - same - Italy same. The FACT is that UK and Thailand have similar numbers of crashes - yet the Thai death rate is ten times higher - how do you explain that?

You are totally over whelmed by conformation bias. - with a touch of cognitive dissonance.

Ok, just to make you happy in your illogical comments I will say it is just as safe to drive in Thailand as it is in the UK, the fact the death rate in Thailand is thirteen times higher is totally irrelevant. 

They are just numbers on a pieces of paper after all it seems to be what you are saying. 

[DesperateOldHand]

10 hours ago, Khunwilko said:

Come on! Think about what I just wrote.

Do you seriously think that Thailand's road safety problems are down to people driving the wrong way down a road? (which incidentally is something most Thai road users are familiar with)

There's problems with Thais on the road?

Hmmm...never noticed.

Must come from a different circle than your own.

[cowslip]

9 hours ago, DesperateOldHand said:

There's problems with Thais on the road?

Hmmm...never noticed.

Must come from a different circle than your own.

The problems are the lack of 5 Es

[cowslip]

10 hours ago, JamesR said:

Ok, just to make you happy in your illogical comments I will say it is just as safe to drive in Thailand as it is in the UK, the fact the death rate in Thailand is thirteen times higher is totally irrelevant. 

They are just numbers on a pieces of paper after all it seems to be what you are saying. 

In other words you can't explain the difference - as the number of collisions are about the same.

You argument of "Thais are bad drivers" doesn't stand up.

[Benroon]

13 hours ago, JamesR said:

I have driven 50,000 kms there and I have seen all sorts of accidents.

Plus two farang neighbours were both killed on separate motorbikes accidents on different days and each left a family behind.

I think personal anecdotes do matter, if lots of us are seeing lots of accidents in different countries then it does say something about the dangers of driving in a particular country. 

Plus I could have had dozens of accidents in Thailand by now if I wasn't driving in a very defensive way, driving in the UK is a doddle by comparison. 

I am not knocking Thailand as I love the weather, food, people, a whole list of things but driving there is dangerous. 

On a bike for sure, I wouldn't even consider it however in a car I feel absolutely no more at risk than I do in the UK, infact on motorways etc I think it's safer in Thailand. I actually enjoy driving here without constantly looking out for hidden cameras/police scammers! 

 

[Benroon]

17 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

In other words you can't explain the difference - as the number of collisions are about the same.

You argument of "Thais are bad drivers" doesn't stand up.

Come on you only have to look at the ludicrous Thai driving test to see there's no way that can prepare you to be a good driver. It always makes me chuckle that whenever most thai drivers go into the slightest of bends they will always apply the brakes even when totally unneccessary. 

Then of course the indicating problem, pure guesswork and now its routine to ignore bikes indicating to come across you as you assume the indicators been on since they left home - until of course they do turn across you !

What I find most baffling is the horrendous Thai road death figures (and it is horrendous) when so many of them poodle along at 18 miles an hour oblivious to the queue they're backing up, how can you get killed when I can walk quicker than most of them !

[cowslip]

2 minutes ago, Benroon said:

On a bike for sure, I wouldn't even consider it however in a car I feel absolutely no more at risk than I do in the UK, infact on motorways etc I think it's safer in Thailand. I actually enjoy driving here without constantly looking out for hidden cameras/police scammers! 

The number of ALL collisions in UK is around the same as UK. If you are in a 4-wheeled private vehicle in Thailand you are about the same risk (lightly less) of dying (not the only stat) as in the USA. The death rates in USA are about 4 times as high as in the UK.

So those of us on a motorbike are at much higher risk (x40) than in a car - but that also applies to the UK. The difference there is that in Thailand over half the vehicles on the roads are motorcycles. 

[cowslip]

4 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Come on you only have to look at the ludicrous Thai driving test to see there's no way that can prepare you to be a good driver. It always makes me chuckle that whenever most thai drivers go into the slightest of bends they will always apply the brakes even when totally unneccessary. 

Then of course the indicating problem, pure guesswork and now its routine to ignore bikes indicating to come across you as you assume the indicators been on since they left home - until of course they do turn across you !

What I find most baffling is the horrendous Thai road death figures (and it is horrendous) when so many of them poodle along at 18 miles an hour oblivious to the queue they're backing up, how can you get killed when I can walk quicker than most of them !

you are using purely anecdotal evidence and it is even at best only tangential to the facts.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Fester]

20 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

you are using purely anecdotal evidence and it is even at best only tangential to the facts.

Another crass comment! The test structures and pass criteria differences in each country alone show which nationality will be better prepared to operate a vehicle safely. 

[Smithydog]

There has been a lot of discussion around "bad" drivers. In my opinion, the term "bad" is influenced heavily by your past experiences and a convenient label to apply. What I have observed are what I would call instances of "unsafe or dangerous driving and/or conditions".

Comparing countries is also unfair. One may have a vast more number of vehicles on the road than another. Types of weather conditions can vary. Road types and distances can have vast differences as can be the number of cars per km. 

Comparing a Thai driver with no experience or opportunity to drive in icy conditions to someone used to driving in the worst ice conditions, would lack common sense. As would comparing someone used to driving on motorways or autobahns with someone experienced and knowledgeable in the conditions faced when driving in the farmlands of Isaan, where dodging all sorts of animals, narrow winding roads, blind corners and people drying rice on the roads are common hazards. 

Improving road safety is a commitment needed by all. Drivers, police, training schools, and government bodies all need to be committed to achieve better results. Having a plan is a good start, but Thailand has had plans for a number of years. The fall down is in commitment to change, execution of the plans and effective enforcement in all areas.

 

[JamesR]

3 hours ago, Smithydog said:

There has been a lot of discussion around "bad" drivers. In my opinion, the term "bad" is influenced heavily by your past experiences and a convenient label to apply. What I have observed are what I would call instances of "unsafe or dangerous driving and/or conditions".

Comparing countries is also unfair. One may have a vast more number of vehicles on the road than another. Types of weather conditions can vary. Road types and distances can have vast differences as can be the number of cars per km. 

Comparing a Thai driver with no experience or opportunity to drive in icy conditions to someone used to driving in the worst ice conditions, would lack common sense. As would comparing someone used to driving on motorways or autobahns with someone experienced and knowledgeable in the conditions faced when driving in the farmlands of Isaan, where dodging all sorts of animals, narrow winding roads, blind corners and people drying rice on the roads are common hazards. 

Improving road safety is a commitment needed by all. Drivers, police, training schools, and government bodies all need to be committed to achieve better results. Having a plan is a good start, but Thailand has had plans for a number of years. The fall down is in commitment to change, execution of the plans and effective enforcement in all areas.

Thai drivers are the best in the world, that is why the number of deaths on the road each year is so low.

Only a bad workman blames his tools.