Important rules and behaviours for driving in Thailand

[cowslip]

6 minutes ago, JamesR said:

"Let's bring this meeting to order everyone".

"Now John, what is on the agenda today".

"There is no agenda"

"What do you mean there is no agenda, well make one quickly now!"

"We we can't sir"

@Khunwilkosaid we are not allowed to sir"

I think you need to review your use of the word agenda.

but you seem to like putting words in my mouth.

[JamesR]

10 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

I think you need to review your use of the word agenda.

but you seem to like putting words in my mouth.

It might be better if you didn't take yourself too seriously and gain a slight sense of humour, we are not in the debating chambers at Oxford University or discussing world events on the BBC News At Ten.

What we write here makes no difference to anyone or anything.

[JamesR]

17 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

I think it is very common for people to bandy about this phrase "defensive driving" when in fact they have no idea what it actually is. 

One of the problems with criticising road safety in Thailand is that most critics have no real knowledge of either road safety or driving themselves hence the bizarre and pointless ideas on this thread.

The truth is that you need a set of skills to driver PERIOD. If you are a competent driver and have these skills, you'll be able to drive reasonably safely all over the world, including Thailand - part of those skills is adapting and adjusting to your driving environment. Giving personal anecdotes etc just indicates how that person is not able top adapt satisfactorily as they so often think that they way they drove at "home" was the "right" way and Thailand is the "wrong" way,

I suppose most people are saying if there are a massive amount of deaths on the road in Thailand compared to most other countries in the world proportionally then the driving standard can not be as high as other countries. 

I suppose if a million Thai swimmers swam five miles to an island and a million farangs did the same but 95% of Thais made it but only 10% of farangs made it then we could say Thais are better swimmers than farangs if we make sure the swimming conditions were exactly the same. 

[cowslip]

18 minutes ago, JamesR said:

f there are a massive amount of deaths on the road in Thailand compared to most other countries in the world proportionally then the driving standard can not be as high as other countries. 

You have totally missed the point of my argument - and have made a perfect non-sequitur.

Your premises are fallacious as are you conclusions 

 

You say " we are not in the debating chambers at Oxford University or discussing world events on the BBC News At Ten."

This conversation is not even kindergarten level

and you end up with reductio ad absurdum. I can only guess you have been drinking.

I've been trying to have an intelligent discussion about road safety in Thailand.

You appear not only to have properly read my posts but instead insist of gainsaying and making inaccurate references to what Ive posted.

If you are going to argue you could at least have the decency taketh time to formulate a coherent argument against something I've actually posted,

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

I think it is very common for people to bandy about this phrase "defensive driving" when in fact they have no idea what it actually is. 

Driving defensively, in this context means, take nothing for granted, and always try to anticipate what those around you are going to be doing in the next X seconds. 

These premises should be true for anywhere in the world, but in other countries they are more forgiving if you don't follow them than here. 

Example, the right of way. Don't just assume that because you have the right of way the other driver is gonna let you through. In Thailand you are better off looking like a fool letting him go even when you have the right of way, or at least taking the time to make sure he is indeed letting you go. You will avoid a lot of accidents only by this. 

Don't swerve across lanes, if you wanna switch lanes, use the indicator and change lanes slowly, always leaving space for some bike you may not have seen (dead angles) or a bike that may be speeding. 

Leave the appropriate safety distance to the car in front, and make sure those behind are leaving the distance as well to you(if they're not, find a different spot, by overtaking or whatever). 

Don't just assume that because the light is green, someone won't jump it, so exercise caution when going through red lights. 

Try not to be close anywhere to lorries (overtake them).

 

You can't just drive in here the way you do back home, and you can't drive back home the way you do here. If you travel by car and you adapt to the driving here, you will be reasonably safe. 

[cowslip]

5 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Example, the right of way. Don't just assume that because you have the right of way the other driver is gonna let you through

most foreigners don't realise that right of way in Thailand is to the left.

[cowslip]

6 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Driving defensively, in this context means, take nothing for granted, and always try to anticipate what those around you are going to be doing in the next X seconds. 

These premises should be true for anywhere in the world, but in other countries they are more forgiving if you don't follow them than here. 

Example, the right of way. Don't just assume that because you have the right of way the other driver is gonna let you through. In Thailand you are better off looking like a fool letting him go even when you have the right of way, or at least taking the time to make sure he is indeed letting you go. You will avoid a lot of accidents only by this. 

Don't swerve across lanes, if you wanna switch lanes, use the indicator and change lanes slowly, always leaving space for some bike you may not have seen (dead angles) or a bike that may be speeding. 

Leave the appropriate safety distance to the car in front, and make sure those behind are leaving the distance as well to you(if they're not, find a different spot, by overtaking or whatever). 

Don't just assume that because the light is green, someone won't jump it, so exercise caution when going through red lights. 

Try not to be close anywhere to lorries (overtake them).

You can't just drive in here the way you do back home, and you can't drive back home the way you do here. If you travel by car and you adapt to the driving here, you will be reasonably safe. 

you're mixing hypothesis with personal anecdote

 

I have avoided using the expression “defensive driving” as I think it is unhelpful.... it gets confused with “slow”, “indecisive”, “timid” and “hesitant”, all of which are to be avoided.

 

Defensive driving skills - “driving to save lives, time, and money, in spite of the conditions around you and the actions of others.” – wiki [American National Standard Safe Practices for Motor Vehicle Operation]

Defensive driving is a particular style of road driving that utilises a variety of techniques and tactics to keep you and everybody else safe on the road.

 

 

Physical skills

In terms of the basic physical tasks required, a driver must be able to control direction, acceleration, and deceleration. For motor vehicles, the detailed tasks include: 

• Starting the vehicle (how about hill starts?)

• Choosing the correct gear

• Operating the pedals with one's feet to accelerate, slow, and stop the vehicle, 

• On a manual operating gears and clutch

• Steering the vehicle

• Generally operating other important ancillary devices on the car such as indicators lights wipers etc. etc.

• Observation skills - looking for hazards and changes in the driving environment.

 

Mental skills. 

Avoiding or successfully handling an emergency driving situation - this is particularly important when driving in Thailand.... and where most foreign drivers fall flat on their face.

The following basic skills are required:

• Making good decisions based on factors such as road and traffic conditions

• Evasive manoeuvring

• Proper hand placement and seating position

• Skid control (usually an acquired skill)

• Steering and braking techniques

• Understanding vehicle dynamics

The key to driving anywhere in the world is observation and anticipation.

 

I find I need only to travel as little as a few hundred metres with another driver to get a pretty good idea of what that driver is like. It takes no accident, no swerving, swearing etc. and jamming on of brakes. If they are positioning the vehicle incorrectly or not anticipating possible hazards the point is soon made and I don’t feel comfortable travelling in their car. 

 

“Expert advice” – for no real reason the police in most countries are regarded as road safety experts – this has had mixed results. The UK police have taken the job seriously devoting whole sections of the force to learning about road safety. In Thailand the approach has been far more haphazard.

 

The UK police first produced “Roadcraft” in the 1950s in order to train their officers, and in the last two decades have radically reappraised the approach to driving. Many other organisations and individuals use this book too - civilian organisations (e.g. RoSPA), Advanced drivers and private road users as well.

 

The book has a useful road safety acronym: - mind you as a mnemonic it falls a bit short….

 

“IPSGA ...

 

·      I = Information received from the outside world by observation, and given by use of signals such as direction indicators, headlamp flashes, and horn; is a general theme running continuously throughout the application of the system by taking, using and giving information;

·      P =  Position on the road optimised for safety, visibility and correct routing, followed by best progress;

·      S =  Speed appropriate to the hazard being approached, attained via explicit braking or throttle control (engine braking), always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road;

·      G =  Gear appropriate for maximum vehicle control through the hazard, selected in one shift; and

·      A =  Acceleration for clearing the hazard safely.

 

The taking, using and giving of Information is, arguably, most important and surrounds (and drives) the five phases IPSGA. It may, and often should, be re-applied at any phase in the System.”

 

 

[cowslip]

Just now, Khunwilko said:

You can't just drive in here the way you do back home, and you can't drive back home the way you do here. If you travel by car and you adapt to the driving here, you will be reasonably safe.

this is true and one of the main mistakes made by foreign drivers when they come to Thailand. However if you are a competent driver and aware of your limitations it shouldn't be necessary to say this.

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

most foreigners don't realise that right of way in Thailand is to the left.

I would disagree with this assumption, as most foreigners here are from the UK, and the right of way there is the same as is in Thailand. 

However those who are not from the UK, take me as an example, I'm Spanish and so the right of way there is to the right, never have I had an issue with figuring to which side is the right of way, it isn't that difficult to figure it out.... Same way that roundabouts are clockwise in Thailand/UK and counter-clockwise in Spain.... It's not rocket science, really... 

If a foreigner can't even figure out the right of way, he is a danger to everyone and should be taken off the roads. 

A different thing is knowing that you have the right of way, and still being careful or directly letting the other person go just in case. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[cowslip]

7 minutes ago, ctxa said:

I would disagree with this assumption, as most foreigners here are from the UK, and the right of way there is the same as in Thailand. 

However those who are not from the UK, take me as an example, I'm Spanish and so the right of way there is to the right, never have I had an issue with figuring to which side is the right of way, it isn't that difficult to figure it out.... Same way that roundabouts are clockwise in Thailand/UK and counter-clockwise in Spain.... It's not rocket science, really.. 

Absolutely not - you are making a major mistake about right of way.

In the EU the probity is from the right and most drivers are used to this is Thailand it is the geometry and the priority is from the LEFT. In Europe the priority from the right rule has lead to a lot of problems which were solved by putting up priority signs where this rule is "overruled". In Thailand the same problem but the other way round has not been properly addressed as there is no real signage and many UK drivers are unaware of the priority rule - that's why they keep saying "he just pulled out in front of me".

in UK it is usually from the right whereas Thailand is the opposite.

 

Priority to the left is a right-of-way system, in which the driver of a vehicle is required to give way to vehicles approaching from the left at intersections. - see Highway Code translation Section 71 (500B) (1979)

Priority to the left is the basic rule and is valid if there are no traffic signs or road markings.

 

Most drivers in Thailand are NOT from the UK either

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

Absolutely not - you are making a major mistake about right of way.

In the EU the probity is from the right and most drivers are used to this is Thailand it is the geometry and the priority is from the LEFT. In Europe the priority from the right rule has lead to a lot of problems which were solved by putting up priority signs where this rule is "overruled". In Thailand the same problem but the other way round has not been properly addressed as there is no real signage and many UK drivers are unaware of the priority rule - that's why they keep saying "he just pulled out in front of me".

in UK it is usually from the right whereas Thailand is the opposite.

Most drivers in Thailand are NOT for the Uk either

There are exceptions to this.

At roundabouts in Thailand, traffic on the right is supposed to have priority (aka the right of way).

But yeah at intersections in Thailand priority goes the left. I would have thought in the UK it would be the same, but I have never driven nor studied the traffic code there. 

PS: This is just the rule - but don't arrive at an intersection and think that because you are on the left to another vehicle he is gonna let you through - it almost never happens. When I happen to be in this situation I mostly let them go, unless I clearly see they are stationary and actually letting me go.

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

I think you need to review your use of the word agenda.

but you seem to like putting words in my mouth.

You have room left?

[cowslip]

16 minutes ago, ctxa said:

There are exceptions to this.

At roundabouts in Thailand, traffic on the right is supposed to have priority (aka the right of way).

But yeah at intersections in Thailand priority goes the left. I would have thought in the UK it would be the same, but I have never driven nor studied the traffic code there. 

THi is one of the reasons why roundabouts are such a mess in Thailand - people don't understand that the priority on them is the OPPOSITE of the rest of the Thai road system.

In England there is not priority from the left and never has been so roundabouts are not a problem. UK has used roundabouts for decades - they are new here/

Obviously on roundabouts in the EU the priority is from the left and this required a major change in driving culture and signage. France now has more roundabouts than any other country.

the difference between EU and Thailand is road markings and signage. These are computer assessed and designed in the EU. In Thailand they are virtually non-existent and when they do appear they seem to have been drawn by a school kid - there is little or no evidence of traffic engineering at all. Lanes are senseless and markings and signs either inconsistent or absent altogether.

The village I lived in has a wonderful example of this - I lived on a long Soi. About halfway along a Sai joined from one side - it looked like a Y junction but in fact the SAI had right of way over the Soi. The only way you could see this was the road name - the little blue sign on a pole - one said Soi 5 the other SAI 5 and therefore had priority on the left.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

Obviously on roundabouts in the EU the priority is from the left and this required a major change in driving culture and signage. France now has more roundabouts than any other country.

 

Priority to the left is only when entering the roundabout, cuz traffic is coming in a counter clockwise direction to you from the left always (obviously) .

 However keep in mind that In the EU priority is to the right once you are inside. Think of a two lanes roundabout, one is the inner lane another is the outer lane. Traffic on the outer lane has priority over traffic on the inner lane. 

In case a traffic on the inner lane wishes to exit the roundabout, but he can't due to traffic on the outer lane, he technically must go around until there's no traffic and he can switch lanes. (Many people in the EU would just slow down to allow for traffic on the outside to pass - but slowing down inside a roundabout is not recommended).

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[cowslip]

24 minutes ago, ctxa said:

I have never driven nor studied the traffic code there. 

I find it strange that people feel they can comment on Thai road law if they have never done this.

...and you have never DRIVEN?????

 

I've driven over half a million kilometres in Thailand and Laos

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

I find it strange that people feel they can comment on Thai road law if they have never done this.

...and you have never DRIVEN?????

Why quote my words out of context??? Do you do this to piss people off? 

I'VE NEVER DRIVEN NOR STUDIED THE CODE IN THE UK. 

I said I thought the right of way in the UK would be to the left (same as Thailand), but then you proved me wrong and I accepted it cuz I 've never driven nor bothered to study the code in the UK. Doesn't mean I haven't studied Thai code nor driven here.

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

I find it strange that people feel they can comment on Thai road law if they have never done this.

...and you have never DRIVEN?????

I've driven over half a million kilometres in Thailand and Laos

In 3-4 years I've driven around 200k km in Thailand, and a bunch of those with a 600HP Mercedes-AMG E63 (that I daily drive). And trust me boy, you need a certain degree of skills to handle those horses and not end up spinning out or worse.

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[cowslip]

1 minute ago, ctxa said:

Why quote my words out of context??? Do you do this to piss off people? 

I'VE NEVER DRIVEN NOR STUDIED THE CODE IN THE UK

This says you have never driven in Thailand or studied the Code in Thailand - how is that a misquote?

How can they be out of context? It's EXACTLY what you said

Have you read the code or have you ever driven in Thailand.

7 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Priority to the left is only when entering the roundabout, cuz traffic is coming in a counter clockwise direction to you from the left always (obviously) .

 However keep in mind that In the EU priority is to the right once you are inside. Think of a two lanes roundabout, one is the inner lane another is the outer lane. Traffic on the outer lane has priority over traffic on the inner lane. 

In case a traffic on the inner lane wishes to exit the roundabout, but he can't due to traffic on the outer lane, he technically must go around until there's no traffic and he can switch lanes. (Many people in the EU would just slow down to allow for traffic on the outside to pass - but slowing down inside a roundabout is not recommended).

LANES!!! - you need to look at lane markings on roundabouts in the EU and then compare to Thailand.

- The road operate just about the exact mirror image in Thailand to EU as Thailand drives on the left with priority to the left. - EU drives on the right with priority to the right.

UK drives on the left with priority to the right - a different set up altogether.

So the way the traffic flows in Thailand is a mirror image of the EU.

But when it comes to lanes and signage  in Thailand, the fact is that it just isn't there or isn't up to the job.

Lanes on round about exist all over EU but are rare as rocking horse poop in Thailand

There are two basic designs in round about lanes depending on the layout of the roundabout. Multiple lanes can be a spiral layout or parallel lanes with filter marking in between exits - this allows driver to filter to the outside lane to exit. Obviously at entrance/exits the priority has to be to the right (in Thailand or left (in EU) or else no-one could exit the roundabout . There are rules about when you can and cannot filter. However none of this is possible on an unmarked roundabout.

BTW in the days when France didn't have roundabouts their cross roads were infamous for accidents - basically because EVERYBODY had RoW onto the roundabout and are would try and enter together with disastrous results.

In The EU you will also see  these signs in various languages - the priority to the right laws exist - they don't exist in UK.

In Thailand the law exists but there is no sign to indicate this.

Many drivers just assume they are on a "Major" priority road but in reality they aren't Thai drivers know this but many foreign drivers don't.

 

 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

This says you have never driven in Thailand or studied the Code in Thailand - how is that a misquote?

How can they be out of context? It's EXACTLY what you said

Have you read the code or have you ever driven in Thailand.

In the UK for gods sake. I've never driven in the UK nor studied traffic rules of the UK, cuz I am not British. And I've only been to the UK when I was like 12yo or so, so no need to drive in the UK. 

[cowslip]

31 minutes ago, ctxa said:

In 3-4 years I've driven around 200k km in Thailand, and a bunch of those with a 600HP Mercedes-AMG E63 (that I daily drive). And trust me boy, you need a certain degree of skills to handle those horses and not end up spinning out or worse.

Especially if you don't know the Highway Code!

You may think you need skills to drive a high powered car, but do they relate to defensive driving skills and Thailand?

Personally I'll never be old enough to own a Merc (apart from a couple of trucks)

You know my views on personal anecdote and driving a "big car" certainly doesn't add any strength to your argument.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

You may think you need skills to drive a high powered car, but do they relate to defensive driving skills and Thailand?

Obviously not - to drive a high powered car you need to understand concepts such as understeer, oversteer, lift off oversteer (important), balance of the car (braking puts weight forward), trail braking, etc etc... 

As well as having some experience with correcting it once for one reason or another your rear breaks loose. There's only so much you can study about this. If you own a high powered car, better take it frequently to the track and practice all these things. Induce oversteer on purpose to get yourself familiar with countersteering etc etc...

AMG Driving Experiences all over the world are a fantastic way to have someone teach you basic skills to handle a high powered car safely. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[cowslip]

9 minutes ago, ctxa said:

In the UK for gods sake. I've never driven in the UK nor studied traffic rules of the UK, cuz I am not British. And I've only been to the UK when I was like 12yo or so, so no need to drive in the UK. 

I think you should take a nap and then read the posts properly.

why would I talk about the UK Highway Code when we're discussing doing in Thailand??

Edited January 18, 2022 by Khunwilko

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

2 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

why would I talk about the UK Highway Code when we're discussing doing in Thailand??

Because I initially made the wrong assumption that priority in the UK would be to the left as it is in Thailand, then you told me otherwise, and I excused my ignorance of UK traffic laws stating that I had never studied the UK traffic code before and so it was just a wrong assumption I had made. 
 

Edited January 18, 2022 by ctxa

[KaptainRob]

8 hours ago, Transam said:

You are wasting your time dealing with Wilco, he reckons he knows it all on road use, but he knows nothing about the mindset and attitude of the folk in LOS regarding road use, which is the biggest problem here, other than no road policing. 

Latter part of the above may be true T, but please leave out the ad hominen stuff huh?

Heading your way today and in 600 kms I've enjoyed excellent roads and only a few idiots through the Lom Sak to Chumpae stretch. 

[cowslip]

10 hours ago, Transam said:

but he knows nothing about the mindset and attitude of the folk in LOS regarding road use, which is the biggest problem here,

I first came to Thailand in 1994 - which is when I first drove here.

I've lived in Thailand for nearly 20 years working with Thai people - not foreigners or teaching at a government school. 

I worked largely in the motor industry and am a member of a 4x4 group - the only fang in fact.

I speak conversational Thai

As I said earlier, I've driven half a million km in my own vehicles plus my motorcycles and hire vehicles on top

So I'd like to know what you are basing you petty insults on?

I guess it's a fat helping of Dunning Kruger.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Khunwilko