Important rules and behaviours for driving in Thailand

[GMoney2312]

Just now, Faraday said:

Hebrews it 

Wow...that is one Epic Holy Pun!

[Marble-eye]

42 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

It is the WAY they are judged.

THe fact is that many do have driving proficiency courses - they are not all corrupt - another sweeping generalisation.

Most Thai people DO have insurance, tax and a licence - just visit any DRT.

Also Thai people have a lot of experience (almost as much as I do) of driving on Thai roads.

The problem is that people resort to generalisations and stereotypes when talking about driving in Thailand and there views are not considered critical thinking they are wild racist generalisations based on th concept that Western drivers are better - this is a myth based on race.

"Also Thai people have a lot of experience (almost as much as I do) of driving on Thai roads."

Don't pull yourself down all the time Wilko, nobody has anywhere near as much experience as you, you are doing yourself a total injustice. 

"almost as much as I do" so Thais will never be as good as you but for the rest of us they are better? What an hypocrite.

 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

It is the WAY they are judged.

THe fact is that many do have driving proficiency courses - they are not all corrupt - another sweeping generalisation.

Most Thai people DO have insurance, tax and a licence - just visit any DRT.

Also Thai people have a lot of experience (almost as much as I do) of driving on Thai roads.

The problem is that people resort to generalisations and stereotypes when talking about driving in Thailand and there views are not considered critical thinking they are wild racist generalisations based on th concept that Western drivers are better - this is a myth based on race.

I do hope you're not trying to drive while composing all of these vain posts.

[Rain]

Well...let's see - a good civilising mission will certainly straighten out these Oriental savages. 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

this is a myth based on race

Like the Abbadabbydoo F1 GP?

[GMoney2312]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

Judging peoples driving ability is racist - seriously.

I look at it as an observational opinion. If I go to an art exhibit and dislike the painter`s work, is that now racists? I see strange driving habits in Thailand as something that happens in a country, just as the insane drivers in the US are in that country. I take the individual aspect out of the equation, which most people do not do.

And when I get made fun of as a white guy, it is never viewed as racists. And I could care less.

The more we glorify race, the more it lives on.

Happy Driving Everyone!

[JamesR]

41 minutes ago, Faz said:

They, as in people.
Some foreigners are also bad drivers, never passed a test and don't hold a valid licence. 

Sorry is the term foreigners racist, would aliens be preferable.

I was an alien once but that is because I was working in the USA for a year writing software.

I had to obtain an alien immigration visa before entering the country. 

[Bluesofa]

36 minutes ago, Faraday said:

You know how Moses makes his tea?

Hebrews it 

He doesn't just 'leaf' it up to the almighty to conjure up a pot?

[Faz]

4 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I was an alien once but that is because I was working in the USA for a year writing software.

Anyone not of Thai nationality is an 'alien' in Thailand.
Bbbbbbbb but isn't that racist?

[Bluesofa]

Just now, Faz said:

Anyone not of Thai nationality is an 'alien' in Thailand.
Bbbbbbbb but isn't that racist?

It's out of this world.

[JamesR]

1 minute ago, Faz said:

Anyone not of Thai nationality is an 'alien' in Thailand.
Bbbbbbbb but isn't that racist?

Yes, they are openly racist, they do not hide it, you can stay as long as you pay, but no rights to residency, the vote etc, so if we decide to stay there knowing that then it is up to us to accept it, I have not problem with it as I have an escape route. 

I know when I stay in Thailand for six moths or so it is temporary, later on I might stay year by year but I know it is only temporary. 

[Convert54]

Fascinating to witness once again the whining manipulation of  facets of reality rising like golden turds to the surface of an assumed private pool of exaggerated elite  judgemental opinion ! !

 

[JamesR]

7 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Fascinating to witness once again the whining manipulation of  facets of reality rising like golden turds to the surface of an assumed private pool of exaggerated elite  judgemental opinion ! !

That sounds like a cryptic clue to the Daily Mail crossword. 

How many letters?

[Convert54]

17 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Yes, they are openly racist, they do not hide it, you can stay as long as you pay, but no rights to residency, the vote etc, so if we decide to stay there knowing that then it is up to us to accept it, I have not problem with it as I have an escape route. 

I know when I stay in Thailand for six moths or so it is temporary, later on I might stay year by year but I know it is only temporary. 

Perhaps a personal letter to the relevant person who takes complaints from abroad will really appreciate your comparative assessment of all things unsatisfactory to expectations ?

[JamesR]

11 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Perhaps a personal letter to the relevant person who takes complaints from abroad will really appreciate your comparative assessment of all things unsatisfactory to expectations ?

There is no indication of any complaint in my comment, just reality, do you think you can stay there permanently or do you too have to get a year by year visa and report every three months?

I accept it as the rules with no complaint.

Who did you vote for in the last election?

[cowslip]

“RATHER THAN “BLAME AND SHAME”, SEE ROAD SAFETY AS A HUMAN RIGHT”

 

When it comes to road safety, Thailand is facing a perfect storm. A rapidly industrialising country with its own motor industry and bourgeoning vehicle ownership coupled with a succession of governments who rather than listen to the established science of road safety prefer to be guided by their own ill-informed prejudices about what the causes might be......

 

If you start with the assumption that the world is flat, you are going encounter problems when planning a trip. So it is with road safety in Thailand

 

What is now needed is for Thailand to forget about their old prejudices and preconceptions and get in line with the rest of the world and adopt a comprehensive road safety policy – this is the “Safe System”

 

So here are 20 home truths about how we view road safety in Thailand.
 

1.    Dunning & Kruger recommend that you review your driving skills! ...most people are notoriously bad at estimating their own skills. Drivers – especially foreigners do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

 

2.    Foreigners who drive in Thailand frequently turn on the vitriol when it comes to talking about their fellow roads users...automatically excluding themselves from the equation and concomitantly implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of all Thai people.
“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.”
There is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a more risky manner than individuals themselves do.
 

3.    consider your own driving - “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” This needs reviewing.

 

4.    The arrogance of the Farang driver... (NB in Farang terms it’s not road user but “driver”) 

·          “I think all problems on road emanate from one source - my own concept of “Thai bad driving”.”

·          “Personally, I am a SUPERB driver - I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore there is little I can do myself.”

·          “As I assume that I’m already prepared there is, less likely to be a need to “plan to avoid them””

·          Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not myself.

·          “I am not aware of the “third-person effect” (Davison, 1983). ( I perceive that mass media messages have a greater effect on others than on myself)”

·          “I give support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education ... but not for me – only for other people. “

 

5.    Thai drivers are no more stupid than any others - we are all the same taxonomical classification. The situation in Thailand is not unique - it has existed in Europe and USA before with the same number of deaths per 100k - ALL countries have experienced peaks in death rates at that time when vehicle ownership becomes almost universal - those who have dealt with it most successfully are in Europe.

 

6.    There is no such thing as an accident - Most accidents are caused by minor human error in the course of normal everyday driving. The notion that most crashes are 'accidents' that are unavoidable is fallacious - Crashes are not usually the result of a major piece of “reckless” driving. .... And this is a worldwide common denominator. It is what happens AFTER the mistake has been made that determines to death rate - this is usually out of the hands of the driver and reliant on the immediate environment and emergency services.

 

7.    Just because you can drive a car, doesn’t mean you’re a road safety expert - Road safety and driving are not the same thing  - road safety is about “road users” and the road environment.

 

8.    If you find yourself constantly getting angry/shouting at or blaming other road users, you probably shouldn’t be driving.

 

9.    Driving a car in Thailand is statistically as safe as in the USA (80% of deaths are attributed to “vulnerable” road users = motorcyclists, 3 wheelers & pedestrians)

 

10.    The plural of anecdote is not data - ever!

 

11.    Don’t believe everything you see. Understand confirmation bias...even salt looks like sugar. Also called “confirmatory bias” or “myside bias”, it is the tendency to search for, interpret, favour, and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses.

 

12.    Don’t fall for false syllogisms... A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn is likely to be in error.

A syllogism is reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion.

e.g.

Major premise: All mammals are warm-blooded.
Minor premise: All black dogs are mammals.
Conclusion: Therefore, all black dogs are warm-blooded.

 

False Syllogism

Major premise: All dogs have 4 legs.
Minor premise: my cat has 4 legs

Conclusion: Therefore, my cat is a dog.

 

13.    Mark Twain claimed to be quoting Disraeli when he said “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics”
Stats are NOT facts they are collections of numbers and are meaningless until analysed and interpreted - they are not a football league table.

 

14.    There is more than one statistic for quantifying road safety e.g. VKT, Deaths per 100k vehicles, traffic density, number of actual collisions/crashes, Serious Injuries & Minor Injuries, number of vehicles registered, miles of road, types of road, weather....
 

15.    Thailand loses 3 to 5 % of its GDP due to road traffic crashes - WHO
 

16.    Police statistics are not used alone to compile the figures for death in Thailand on a yearly basis.

·          The criteria for a road death is NOT limited to within 30 days of the crash.

·          Statistics are gathered from institutions such as hospitals, insurance companies and police.

·          Reporting of all sources is incomplete and unsatisfactory as is the categorization of crashes into death, serious injury and minor injury.

·          There is little or no analysis of the crash scene even if a crash comes to the notice of the police. 

·          Have you EVER seen a crash report form?

 

17.    Some of the Data Sources used for compiling Statistics of road traffic crashes in Thailand...

·          Police Information System (POLIS) - Royal Thai Police

·          TRAMS - Ministry of Transport

·          E-Claim - Road Victim Protection Company

·          Injury Surveillance (IS) - Ministry of Public Health

·          Trauma Registry - Ministry of Public Health

·          External Causes of Injury - Ministry of Public Health

·          Information Technology for Emergency Medical System (ITEMS) - Emergency Medical Institute of Thailand

·          Emergency Claim Online (EMCO) - National Health Security Office

·          OP/PP Individual Record - National Health Security Office

·          Death Certificates - Ministry of Interior

 

 

18.   There can be little or no improvement until Thailand adopts the Safe System’s  5 Es.

·          Education

·          Enforcement

·          Engineering

·          Emergency

·          Evaluation.

Without ALL of these improvement is virtually impossible

 

19.    Don’t just blame the “drivers” - all accidents can be PREVENTED - this is a health & safety problem and the roads are the workplace. And it is ALL OF US that need a change of attitude.

 

20.    “Culture” this is used frequently as a substitute for racism or national stereotyping without any regard to its true meaning. - If you really want to understand the culture of road behaviour in Thailand, then pretend you are on a boat on a river and everything falls into place.
 

“For long-term road safety, we need to move beyond blaming the individual road user.” -

 

What is needed is a paradigm shift; we have to undergo basic changes as a society in terms of how we perceive road safety in order to create safer environments for all road users.
The truth is that successive governments have allowed the current situation to continue unabated - it requires a detailed understanding of the problems and implementation of ALL 5 Es - this requires substantial re-investment even in the newest of highways and even a constitutional change in how the law is operated with a genuine separation of powers - legislative, executive and judiciary. Without these fundamental reforms even the most elementary of measures are destined to fail.

A highly effective way to engage politicians, policy makers and system designers in a debate on a Safe System is to create increased demand for road safety among citizens. The traditional societal view holds that road users bear the main responsibility for road safety hazards. It is they who should be “blamed and shamed” for incidents and measures should focus on correcting their irresponsible behaviour. In contrast, a Safe System is based on the notion that road users are citizens with rights and should be able to take part in road traffic without risking death or serious injury – even if and when they make simple human mistakes. A Safe System also posits that road safety is a shared responsibility, and thus gives citizens the right to demand safe road traffic from society.*

 

*[I’ve borrowed heavily from the “Car Crash Detective” for the last two paragraphs - http://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/rather-than-blame-and-shame-see-road-safety-as-a-human-right/

 

 

[JamesR]

18 minutes ago, Khunwilko said:

“RATHER THAN “BLAME AND SHAME”, SEE ROAD SAFETY AS A HUMAN RIGHT”

 

When it comes to road safety, Thailand is facing a perfect storm. A rapidly industrialising country with its own motor industry and bourgeoning vehicle ownership coupled with a succession of governments who rather than listen to the established science of road safety prefer to be guided by their own ill-informed prejudices about what the causes might be......

 

If you start with the assumption that the world is flat, you are going encounter problems when planning a trip. So it is with road safety in Thailand

 

What is now needed is for Thailand to forget about their old prejudices and preconceptions and get in line with the rest of the world and adopt a comprehensive road safety policy – this is the “Safe System”

 

So here are 20 home truths about how we view road safety in Thailand.
 

1.    Dunning & Kruger recommend that you review your driving skills! ...most people are notoriously bad at estimating their own skills. Drivers – especially foreigners do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

 

2.    Foreigners who drive in Thailand frequently turn on the vitriol when it comes to talking about their fellow roads users...automatically excluding themselves from the equation and concomitantly implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of all Thai people.
“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.”
There is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a more risky manner than individuals themselves do.
 

3.    consider your own driving - “Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” This needs reviewing.

 

4.    The arrogance of the Farang driver... (NB in Farang terms it’s not road user but “driver”) 

·          “I think all problems on road emanate from one source - my own concept of “Thai bad driving”.”

·          “Personally, I am a SUPERB driver - I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore there is little I can do myself.”

·          “As I assume that I’m already prepared there is, less likely to be a need to “plan to avoid them””

·          Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not myself.

·          “I am not aware of the “third-person effect” (Davison, 1983). ( I perceive that mass media messages have a greater effect on others than on myself)”

·          “I give support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education ... but not for me – only for other people. “

 

5.    Thai drivers are no more stupid than any others - we are all the same taxonomical classification. The situation in Thailand is not unique - it has existed in Europe and USA before with the same number of deaths per 100k - ALL countries have experienced peaks in death rates at that time when vehicle ownership becomes almost universal - those who have dealt with it most successfully are in Europe.

 

6.    There is no such thing as an accident - Most accidents are caused by minor human error in the course of normal everyday driving. The notion that most crashes are 'accidents' that are unavoidable is fallacious - Crashes are not usually the result of a major piece of “reckless” driving. .... And this is a worldwide common denominator. It is what happens AFTER the mistake has been made that determines to death rate - this is usually out of the hands of the driver and reliant on the immediate environment and emergency services.

 

7.    Just because you can drive a car, doesn’t mean you’re a road safety expert - Road safety and driving are not the same thing  - road safety is about “road users” and the road environment.

 

8.    If you find yourself constantly getting angry/shouting at or blaming other road users, you probably shouldn’t be driving.

 

9.    Driving a car in Thailand is statistically as safe as in the USA (80% of deaths are attributed to “vulnerable” road users = motorcyclists, 3 wheelers & pedestrians)

 

10.    The plural of anecdote is not data - ever!

 

11.    Don’t believe everything you see. Understand confirmation bias...even salt looks like sugar. Also called “confirmatory bias” or “myside bias”, it is the tendency to search for, interpret, favour, and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses.

 

12.    Don’t fall for false syllogisms... A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn is likely to be in error.

A syllogism is reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion.

e.g.

Major premise: All mammals are warm-blooded.
Minor premise: All black dogs are mammals.
Conclusion: Therefore, all black dogs are warm-blooded.

 

False Syllogism

Major premise: All dogs have 4 legs.
Minor premise: my cat has 4 legs

Conclusion: Therefore, my cat is a dog.

 

13.    Mark Twain claimed to be quoting Disraeli when he said “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics”
Stats are NOT facts they are collections of numbers and are meaningless until analysed and interpreted - they are not a football league table.

 

14.    There is more than one statistic for quantifying road safety e.g. VKT, Deaths per 100k vehicles, traffic density, number of actual collisions/crashes, Serious Injuries & Minor Injuries, number of vehicles registered, miles of road, types of road, weather....
 

15.    Thailand loses 3 to 5 % of its GDP due to road traffic crashes - WHO
 

16.    Police statistics are not used alone to compile the figures for death in Thailand on a yearly basis.

·          The criteria for a road death is NOT limited to within 30 days of the crash.

·          Statistics are gathered from institutions such as hospitals, insurance companies and police.

·          Reporting of all sources is incomplete and unsatisfactory as is the categorization of crashes into death, serious injury and minor injury.

·          There is little or no analysis of the crash scene even if a crash comes to the notice of the police. 

·          Have you EVER seen a crash report form?

 

17.    Some of the Data Sources used for compiling Statistics of road traffic crashes in Thailand...

·          Police Information System (POLIS) - Royal Thai Police

·          TRAMS - Ministry of Transport

·          E-Claim - Road Victim Protection Company

·          Injury Surveillance (IS) - Ministry of Public Health

·          Trauma Registry - Ministry of Public Health

·          External Causes of Injury - Ministry of Public Health

·          Information Technology for Emergency Medical System (ITEMS) - Emergency Medical Institute of Thailand

·          Emergency Claim Online (EMCO) - National Health Security Office

·          OP/PP Individual Record - National Health Security Office

·          Death Certificates - Ministry of Interior

 

 

18.   There can be little or no improvement until Thailand adopts the Safe System’s  5 Es.

·          Education

·          Enforcement

·          Engineering

·          Emergency

·          Evaluation.

Without ALL of these improvement is virtually impossible

 

19.    Don’t just blame the “drivers” - all accidents can be PREVENTED - this is a health & safety problem and the roads are the workplace. And it is ALL OF US that need a change of attitude.

 

20.    “Culture” this is used frequently as a substitute for racism or national stereotyping without any regard to its true meaning. - If you really want to understand the culture of road behaviour in Thailand, then pretend you are on a boat on a river and everything falls into place.
 

“For long-term road safety, we need to move beyond blaming the individual road user.” -

 

What is needed is a paradigm shift; we have to undergo basic changes as a society in terms of how we perceive road safety in order to create safer environments for all road users.
The truth is that successive governments have allowed the current situation to continue unabated - it requires a detailed understanding of the problems and implementation of ALL 5 Es - this requires substantial re-investment even in the newest of highways and even a constitutional change in how the law is operated with a genuine separation of powers - legislative, executive and judiciary. Without these fundamental reforms even the most elementary of measures are destined to fail.

A highly effective way to engage politicians, policy makers and system designers in a debate on a Safe System is to create increased demand for road safety among citizens. The traditional societal view holds that road users bear the main responsibility for road safety hazards. It is they who should be “blamed and shamed” for incidents and measures should focus on correcting their irresponsible behaviour. In contrast, a Safe System is based on the notion that road users are citizens with rights and should be able to take part in road traffic without risking death or serious injury – even if and when they make simple human mistakes. A Safe System also posits that road safety is a shared responsibility, and thus gives citizens the right to demand safe road traffic from society.*

 

*[I’ve borrowed heavily from the “Car Crash Detective” for the last two paragraphs - http://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/rather-than-blame-and-shame-see-road-safety-as-a-human-right/

 

Thailand is a long long way from being able to adopt all of that.

With a child you have first to teach it how to walk.

So teach a driving standard in Thailand which is higher than what we would expect from a ten year old.

Then enforce seat belt wearing and the wearing of hats on a motorcycle, once that has been achieved over the next ten years then go onto what you have suggested.

Learn to walk and talk first and then improve on it. 

[Convert54]

17 minutes ago, JamesR said:

There is no indication of any complaint in my comment, just reality, do you think you can stay there permanently or do you too have to get a year by year visa and report every three months?

I accept it as the rules with no complaint.

Who did you vote for in the last election?

Yes I am "here" and have been so for a couple of decades complying with requirements and  driving defensively. As for  "permanence" I am not sure as to the inference of your question. Nor the relevance of  who I vote for !

 

[JamesR]

6 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Yes I am "here" and have been so for a couple of decades complying with requirements and  driving defensively. As for  "permanence" I am not sure as to the inference of your question. Nor the relevance of  who I vote for !

"I am not sure as to the inference of your question. Nor the relevance of  who I vote for !"

I assumed you voted for no-one as you have no rights to do so in Thailand. 

"permanence", there is no permanence, we are there for as long as the current visa allows us to be there.

I do agree with driving defensively though as I try and anticipate what will happen next on the roads there, but it is good fun driving in Thailand especially when cars are driving the wrong way down the highway towards you as I have experienced many times especially on the Southern Highway from Krabi to Surat Thani.

[cowslip]

3 hours ago, JamesR said:

Thailand is a long long way from being able to adopt all of that.

With a child you have first to teach it how to walk.

So teach a driving standard in Thailand which is higher than what we would expect from a ten year old.

Then enforce seat belt wearing and the wearing of hats on a motorcycle, once that has been achieved over the next ten years then go onto what you have suggested.

Learn to walk and talk first and then improve on it. 

I think you'll find that's what I've been saying.

The problem is you have to adopt the whole "Safe System" as it doesn't work on single issues - everyone likes to pick something

Here is has been testing and helmets.

The problem is they are all interlinked.

For example our suggestion "enforce seat belt wearing and the wearing of hats on a motorcycle"

Firstly "enforce" - how would you do that? There is a huge problem as the police are neither trained for nor disposed to enforcement. Do achieve this you have to address E for enforcement. That involves a restructuring of the police force and THEN setting a courts and legal system to impose penalties and then chase them up as necessary. To achieve this one has to have vehicle details and addresses of owners - again this will have to be set up.

The helmet and seatbelt laws are already in place - in fact they're stricter than the UK but there is no system to enforce.

So  you are back to the 5 Es - in this case Enforcement, Engineering (they have to be suitable helmets and seatbelts fitted). 

In fact  there is one elephant in the room that is seldom addressed and that is how Thailand DEALS with injuries caused on the roads - EMERGENCY. 

 

 

[cowslip]

3 hours ago, Convert54 said:

driving defensively

Interesting expression - can you define that?

 

[cowslip]

7 hours ago, Faz said:

Judging peoples driving ability is racist - seriously.

Judging "a" people's driving ability is racist

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

Judging "a" people's driving ability is racist

Ever thought for a second that not all of us here are native English speakers? 

[cowslip]

5 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Ever thought for a second that not all of us here are native English speakers? 

Your point being?

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

1 hour ago, Khunwilko said:

Your point being?

That you don't need to be a grammar cop. You understood perfectly and exactly what he wanted to say. 

This isn't a university English essay.