Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble

[mickkotlarski]

<quoted post deleted - content herein bears no relevance, deleted>

[KaptainRob]

This is not a trump/obama discussion and further aggressive and/or off-topic posts re US measures will be deleted and offending members may find time out to reflect on the forum guidelines.

[Fester]

13 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

You've lost me there. How did Obama interfere other than by commenting? Why is a comment by one, interference, and the other not.

It's noteworthy than when Obama commented, that the Right were outraged, but they made no such comment on Trump.

He came to London and during a speech he said that if the UK were to leave the EU that we woud be at the "back of the queue" for a future trade deal. No interference there, then.

[Fester]

13 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

That's rich coming from the Hungarians in particular considering their record in WWII supporting the Nazis and murdering Jews. As for the Poles, I think that their recent actions in attempting to purge academics, the censorship and closing of media outlets that don't follow the party line, and purging of judges who are not compliant tells me that they are far more aligned to the Soviets. 

Maybe I don't understand your point. Perhaps you can tell me from a Hungarian/Polish viewpoint when the EU sent tanks into Budapest to crush an uprising? Or maybe when both countries were denied democratic rights such as voting by the EU. Or maybe it was that like the Soviets, they were denied property rights by the EU.

I certainly don't understand most of your other claims either. Regarding immigration in particular, we were importing more non-EU citizens than we were from the EU. We were not part of Schengen. We had border controls and we had a right to refuse admission to undesirables which we exercised. It worked both ways, and we had free movement in the EU. 

Ah WW2! Great. What year was it that the EU sent tanks in to Budapest again?

[Fester]

14 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

You've got me biting on this line. 

As a trading bloc, the EU exercise immense power. Under the EU constitution, only the EU can negotiate a trade agreement for all member states. Clunky as it seems, there are good reasons for this. If for example, Poland were allowed to negotiate a deal with the US to buy bananas, that might impact on the Swedish banana crop. Thus all deals are scrutinised and the Commission decides through Qualified Majority Voting whether the deal is best for the U as a whole. If they vote for it, the deal is then put before the Parliament and voted on. So if Ruritania wants to do a trade deal with Romania, it has to be done through the EU. There are two obvious reasons why this system is chosen. The first is that the national interests of all member states are considered. The second is to prevent any member state taking advantage of a trade deal where they can freeze other members out.

I am not sure how most other trading blocs work, but I am aware that NAFTA is exclusive to Mexico, Canada and the US. Each country is allowed to negotiate their own deals with non-members, but a trade deal between Mexico and NZ, does not give the Kiwis access to NAFTA.

I am not sure who you are referring to regarding "committed to the European ideal" so I will pass on that one.

Regarding influence, I think it will still be France and Germany. Italy should be there but the political situation is too prone to populism. The UK should also have been there, had they not spent the best part of 30 years starting with Thatcher in being disruptive. Blair's honeymoon ended by siding with Dubya when he referred to France and Germany as "Old Europe" when they refused to get involved in Iraq II. History tells us that France and Germany were right. More to the point, the France and Germany of old Europe would have gone to war for a lot less than this. I can have a certain amount of sympathy for Thatcher on this issue. She was very pro-europe and even campaigned in the 1975 referendum to remain. However, being the only female leader, she often saw her fellow leaders as "patronising", in the same way that some men regard women talking about football. I think the EU made a big mistake in that regard.

The role of the Parliament is relatively limited and in the main, it consists of voting on legislation introduced by the Commission. They also have the power to investigate the Commission or Commissioners. In 1999, following an inquiry into corruption, they forced the entire Commission to resign. I think the power balance with the Parliament is just about right. Any less power, and it becomes easy for the Commissioners to avoid scrutiny. Any more, and there will be those screaming about sovereignty, even if all the MEP's from their country voted in favour of a measure that they didn't like.

As for Merkle, I am an admirer and it somehow seemed apt to me, that when Trump was picking fights with NATO Allies, there were those who referred to her as the "New leader of the free world". I am sure someone will replace her with a similar vision of the future of Europe but maybe it will take some time.

 

QMV has replaced numerous former vetos, which means that some countries have more and more chance of ending up with rules, or a deal that they really don't want and which they could have rejected previously. So, in cases like this. the national interests of all member states are not considered but overruled. 

The movement in the UK to leave began as soon as we joined (the EEC). Thatcher supported the Common Market but saw the reality of where it was going in the late 80's, politically, and wanted out. That's why she was dumped by Major & Gang. 

The 1999 affair concerned corruption allegations against the commission of Jaques Santer, which resigned before investigations were completed. Wonder why?

NATO Allies were admonished about funding, when most members, including Germany, were guilty of not paying into the kitty according to the agreed obligations. Nothing to do with the EU, of course.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by KaptainRob
Name removed

[Fester]

12 hours ago, Benroon said:

Then your corporate banker didn't know what he was talking about so I'm struggling to believe that story - was it Nick Leeson ? Who would they have borrowed it from ?

You don't need a single penny in the bank but you DO need to show any debt, inflation, and interest rates are under control, and I think you had to at least tie your currency to the Euro for a set period.

Both sides bent the rules and cheated. The Greeks cooked their books and the EU knew about it.

[Poolie]

4 minutes ago, Fester said:

Both sides bent the rules and cheated. The Greeks cooked their books and the EU knew about it.

Cooked to the point of charring.........

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

To suggest racism didn't play a part in brexit is naive in the extreme. it was comfortably the No 1 driving force. There is nothing wrong in 'playing that card' when appropriate and in this case it is entirely appropriate. However you can't easily unearth people who will admit it, in public anyway due to the fact most racists are cowards!

The last sentence also shows more naivety IMO - how many times did you hear 'taking our jobs' ? usually espoused by overweight slobs from the sofa spending their handouts - but now no-one is doing those jobs, the brits can't get fuel, supermarket shelves are empty and even Tim Wetherspoon the arch brexit supporter is begging for the migrants to come back before his business goes under as he can't find brits to get out of bed to take their place. Migrants are being chartered in to pick veg and Bojo is personally begging HGV drivers to come from Europe. It's an entirely predictable clusterf*** but The Sun won the day !

Its backfiring but you're never going to get anyone to admit that.

Do I think the EU is a polished model ? Good god no it has serious issues - but the brits were lied to on a gigantic scale and they fell for it and are now currently paying for it. I challenge anyone to tell me why that is short term (with facts, not soundbites or wishful thinking - thats Bojo's job!)

 

To say racism was "comfortably the No 1 driving force" is rubbish and not at all appropriate. Now you add accusations of cowardice to this garbage. How many of these "overweight slobs" had a stage or were even listened to? Really? You're just making stuff up and your rant just gets worse from there.

 

 

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

Who is more prosperous ? The EU or ASEAN ?

(I am definitely not on the left).

Why try to compare? They are completely different.

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

To be fair I think young Fester is trying to push water uphill so soundbites and quips are so much easier to find than substance - go easy on him 

Looks like soundbites and quips are your thing. Not mine.

[Fluke]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

To suggest racism didn't play a part in brexit is naive in the extreme. it was comfortably the No 1 driving force.

British people and Europeans are of the same race though, or was you suggesting that British people are racist against White people and left  the E.U because of that racism ?

[Fester]

11 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

Just to expand upon your point, Freedom of Movement is not an EU law. It's a treaty obligation.

And that takes me to a point that I have often made. In the run-up to the 2016 vote, I came across many people who complained that they didn't like foreigners upon them. Every time I came across this, I always asked the question: Which of these laws are you objecting to and how has it adversely impacted. A few said, "Free Movement". You can imagine their response when they discovered there was no such law.

I then went on to tell them about some of these laws, also pointing out that if we left the EU, these could be repealed. One such law which was introduced following Maastricht, was the right to Holiday Pay. Believe it or not, there was no statutory right to this until Maastricht. It was solely at your employers discretion. Even if you had a contract of employment stating "4 weeks paid hols", there was nothing to stop your employer sticking a new weaker offer under your nose, and if you refused to sign it, he could give you notice to quit. Naturally, when I asked did they want to see that law repealed, nobody ever did.

Some of the other laws that were introduced by the EU, included employers not being able to fire you if you refused to work more than 48 hours in a week. Health and Product Safety. Consumer Protection. Credit card protections etc. One particular piece of EU legislation that I am in awe of is European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval. Since the early 50's when there 2 mill vehicles on UK roads, until we joined in 1973 by which time there were 20 mill, road deaths remained static at 6k a year. Once this was introduced road deaths fell sharply until it reached 2k by 1990. That one EU law has saved over 100k lives in the UK alone.

There have also been laws passed regarding passenger rights for flights that never existed before. This includes the right to compensation for delayed flights and baggage. One other area that is worth a mention, is that in the age of the internet, when you are likely to get involved in cross border consumer transactions, they have introduced a cross border Small Claims Court procedure which allows a complainant to have such matters heard in their own country and in their own language at a fixed fee of €25 and claims are limited to €25k. In the UK domestic small claims cases are limited to £5k. So you buy something online in France, and the vendor doesn't deliver, you can file online to get justice. Before that, it would have been a question of "Well I know I've lost £700, but It will probably cost me more than that to pay a French Lawyer, and I can't speak the lingo. Best to chalk it up to experience".

I think most of those who were misinformed about the evil lawmakers of Brussels, made the mistake of never noticing that when the media talked about this, they never noticed that the media actually never identified any of these laws, and relied on the ignorance of the public not to notice this.

Finally, as I said earlier, once we left the EU, these laws were subject to repeal. Did anyone notice how a couple weeks ago, the UK lifted the ban on UK mobile roaming charges? I am not sure who this benefits other than airtime providers.

Oh good. Yes, treaty law is immediately prime and affects every member, like it or not. After a succession of treaties of course there are a lot more of these laws. Freedom of movement was always there but not seen as problematic until cheap labour came into the UK from the newer eastern European members. Yes, there was resentment but it was to do with pay and standards of living, rather than racism.

By the way, the EEC did little about Health and Safety until the late '80's, after which it decided that it had better make an effort to catch up (with UK legislation) before someone noticed. 

 

[Fester]

7 hours ago, Khunwilko said:

There are various countries at various stages of the process of joining the EU. So even if a couple of countries left the membership is still growing.

Oddly enough even amn=onst the hard right in many countries in the U there is little support for actually leaving.

I think Brexiteers tend to have a rather distorted view of other countries opinions on this, presumably because they are hoping that there are a few others in the EU as stupid as they are?

There is little support for actually leaving in the smaller, poorer countries - that's because of the free money but not out of any great love of the EU. 

[mickkotlarski]

2 hours ago, KaptainRob said:

This is not a trump/obama discussion and further aggressive and/or off-topic posts re US measures will be deleted and offending members may find time out to reflect on the forum guidelines.

Yes I must admit things can get heated. It can be difficult to apologize to someone that is insulting and stubborn at the same time. Exchanges simply turn into arguments.  Sorry about the hot air.

[PBS]

1 hour ago, Fluke said:

British people and Europeans are of the same race though, or was you suggesting that British people are racist against White people and left  the E.U because of that racism ?

Perhaps you're more comfortable with the description 'populist nativism' - LOL  Though there were 'leavers' promoting racism e.g. Farage

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/British-politician-Nigel-Farage-unveiling-a-racist-poster-during-the-Brexit-campaign_fig1_328208110

Edited October 10, 2021 by PBS

[Fluke]

4 minutes ago, PBS said:

Perhaps you're more comfortable with the description 'populist nativism' - LOL  Though there were 'leavers' promoting racism e.g. Farage

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/British-politician-Nigel-Farage-unveiling-a-racist-poster-during-the-Brexit-campaign_fig1_328208110

What is racist about that poster ?

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, Fester said:

He came to London and during a speech he said that if the UK were to leave the EU that we woud be at the "back of the queue" for a future trade deal. No interference there, then.

And how is that any different from Trump commenting?

[Fluke]

1 minute ago, JohninDubin said:

And how is that any different from Trump commenting?

Please, could Trump not get talked about ?

Lets talk about Putin/Kim /Taksin  or someone else other than Trump  ?

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, Fester said:

Ah WW2! Great. What year was it that the EU sent tanks in to Budapest again?

I think it's about time that the mods took a look at your posts to me. Now you are persistently trolling.

[gummy]

Just now, Fluke said:

Please, could Trump not get talked about ?

Lets talk about Putin/Kim /Taksin  or someone else other than Trump  ?

Sure, but not in this thread so suggest to start your own

[Soidog]

7 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Unfortunately soidog there are many people these days that do not understand that in politics it is a matter of opinion. They truly believe that their 'opinion' is fact, and that all other opinions are false and wrong and must be shut down. There is not a perfect form of Government - never has been and never will be - it is always a matter of compromise, but some people refuse to compromise.  Climate Change is a classic example - the opinion that we must 'save the planet or we are going to be extinct soon' very quickly hits against the opinion that 'nuclear fission generated electricity is evil/bad'.  So when countries like France and USA who make a lot of electricity using clean non-polluting nuclear fission say they are going to reduce carbon emissions (more nuclear etc.), the nutters demand countries like Australia (0% nuclear) do the same - now!! 

100% agree on all that @AussieBob.  The left in politics have taken on this role of having the moral high ground. The only people who care about the elderly, education, immigration, the poor and the planet. The irony in the U.K. is that many of the people left of centre are people holding dinner parties in leafy suburbs of North London living in large houses, many kids and two cars outside the house. Many have no idea what the underlying challenges are and simply hold left wing politics as they see it as morally superior. 
 

Climate change is a particularly hot topic here as part of the governments policy to reduce carbon emissions is nuclear. There is a group called “Insulate Britain” who are demanding the government spends tens of billions further insulating our buildings. For some reason their main protests include blocking major roads and motorways. Perhaps a look at the single 4 inch walls in Thailand would be a better place to start? 

[gummy]

Just now, Soidog said:

Climate change is a particularly hot topic

love the pun 

[cowslip]

2 hours ago, Fester said:

There is little support for actually leaving in the smaller, poorer countries - that's because of the free money but not out of any great love of the EU. 

You clearly don't understand the benefit of benign a 450 million strong free market

[Soidog]

7 hours ago, PBS said:

OP is in relation to the Polish government which is currently on course to 'right of centre' authoritarian governance; irrelevant to talk to left of centre etc.

How can you debate centre right politics without balancing the debate and comparing to centre left? 

[cowslip]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

He came to London and during a speech he said that if the UK were to leave the EU that we woud be at the "back of the queue" for a future trade deal. No interference there, then.

That is stating the a fact.