Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble

[gummy]

9 minutes ago, PBS said:

Incorrect. Take a look a Bannon's activities in Europe over the past few years influencing anti democratic ideology; trump has been heavily influenced by Bannon for years and so far as I know has never outright rejected Bannon's and others anti government / anti democratic ideology, Surely you are not trying to deny trump and Bannon's ideological influence to the right of centre in Poland, to this day, as that would be you ignoring fact.

Let me just say that as I started this thread it was about whether the EU will survive or not.  Nothing to to do with garbage about Trump , Bannon or any other non European. Now if you can not grasp that then please refrain from posting deflective garbage.

[Fester]

22 minutes ago, PBS said:

Tell someone who cares,

Get over your lack of knowledge and do some research. trump ideological influencing efforts during his administration and various others associated with him are relevant today to political events in Poland.

What is relevant in the cases of Hugary and Poland is that they were both part of the former Soviet Bloc - today they see certain similarities between being part of that bloc and being part of the EU.

You offer no factual evidence to support the false claims Trump & Co have influenced this backlash against the EU, which has been building, since at least 2015, over legal, financial, punitive and immigration matters. 

[Rookiescot]

23 minutes ago, Fluke said:

Are you aware that this story is about the Prime minister of Poland and that Poland top law Courts have recently rejected E.U laws in favour of Polish laws ?

Yes I am aware of this. Poland will not voluntarily leave the EU. It gets way to much out of membership. Like I said. The Polish PM is a right wing nutjob who has packed the courts with his supporters. Its pure theater for his right wing nutjob supporters.

There is more chance that Poland will be thrown out of the EU if it doesnt start obeying the rules. 

Hungary is doing the same.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, palooka said:

I thought that the EU would fall apart when they had the liquidity problem of the P.I.G.S., Portugal, Italy Greece and Spain some years ago.  It was suggested to me, by a corporate banker that I knew, that many of these countries cheated their way into the EU membership. Supposedly for membership you had to show so many billions of dollars or equivalent.  Apparently they all borrowed the money, showed it for membership and then repaid it, after qualifying, with huge interest.That banker retired on the commissions he made from this.

Glad the UK got out, may have short term pain but will come back stronger.

Actually, this looming mess might've been noted some time ago by more than a few keen observers. 

In the end, if and when it all breaks up, the fall will come the hardest on Germany - whom created and designed this manipulated "unified"  structure to assure it's benefit selfishly. 

[Fluke]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Yes I am aware of this. Poland will not voluntarily leave the EU. It gets way to much out of membership. Like I said. The Polish PM is a right wing nutjob who has packed the courts with his supporters. Its pure theater for his right wing nutjob supporters.

There is more chance that Poland will be thrown out of the EU if it doesnt start obeying the rules. 

Hungary is doing the same.

It would be nice if you could use words other than "nutjob" .

Public support for Poland leaving the E,U is growing , it used to be about 90 % in 2019 and now that figure is down to 67 % (Those who want to remain in the E.U)

[Smithydog]

Hi All,

Interesting topic. Let's not spoil it by getting too focussed on the influence or otherwise of non-Europeans. I am sure that all Europeans have the capacity to act as adults and chose the paths they wish to believe is best for their country, group, bloc or whatever.

Some good questions off the top of my head to consider in line with the question posed may be "How strong is their influence as a trading bloc?", "Are they more committed to an European ideal than before or less?", "Which countries and leaders within Europe have the greatest impact and will that change with the retirement of the German Leader?", "How important is a European Parliament and should it exercise more control to maintain the bloc?".

Plenty to discuss outside other countries and Leaders!

Thanks

Moderator

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fluke said:

It would be nice if you could use words other than "nutjob" .

Public support for Poland leaving the E,U is growing , it used to be about 90 % in 2019 and now that figure is down to 67 % (Those who want to remain in the E.U)

Nutjob is literally the best term I have for them. I have many far worse ones.

What this boils down to is racism. 

The EU rules state that each member country has to take in a certain number of refuges which are given asylum in the EU.

Poland and Hungary do not want those refugees. In other words they want to pick and choose which laws they allow while retaining all the benefits of EU membership.

It is ironic that the two nations who like freedom of movement for its own citizens detest the idea when it comes to freedom of movement for others.

It is also ironic that the flood of Polish and Hungarian people into the UK was a primary driver in Brexit winning.

[Rookiescot]

17 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Hi All,

Interesting topic. Let's not spoil it by getting too focussed on the influence or otherwise of non-Europeans. I am sure that all Europeans have the capacity to act as adults and chose the paths they wish to believe is best for their country, group, bloc or whatever.

Some good questions off the top of my head to consider in line with the question posed may be "How strong is their influence as a trading bloc?", "Are they more committed to an European ideal than before or less?", "Which countries and leaders within Europe have the greatest impact and will that change with the retirement of the German Leader?", "How important is a European Parliament and should it exercise more control to maintain the bloc?".

Plenty to discuss outside other countries and Leaders!

Thanks

Moderator

Some good questions. Of course Germany and France will continue to have a huge influence in the EU. Now that the UK has left its down to two powerful states rather than three. However the veto still exists for any major changes within the EU so other nations will get their say and of course concessions. 

Will Germany miss Merkle? The whole of the EU will miss Merkle. She took no nonsense from anyone. Dont know much about the new Chancellor to be honest. But I suspect you dont get to the top of German politics unless you can be clever and ruthless. 

The European Parliament is as democratic as any other parliament. In your own regions you vote for a Member of the EU parliament to represent you. In the same way we elect MP's in the UK.

Those MEP's then horse trade and vote for who gets the top jobs. Not dissimilar to the UK where you vote for a party but it is that party which elects its own leader. That leader (if his party forms the government) then decides who gets the top jobs.

What the EU parliament does not have is an unelected house of Lords.

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Nutjob is literally the best term I have for them. I have many far worse ones.

What this boils down to is racism. 

The EU rules state that each member country has to take in a certain number of refuges which are given asylum in the EU.

Poland and Hungary do not want those refugees. In other words they want to pick and choose which laws they allow while retaining all the benefits of EU membership.

It is ironic that the two nations who like freedom of movement for its own citizens detest the idea when it comes to freedom of movement for others.

It is also ironic that the flood of Polish and Hungarian people into the UK was a primary driver in Brexit winning.

 

I usually find that nutjob best describes those that pull out the race card like a kiddies six-shooter.

What is a refugee and who qualifies as such? Poland and Hungary only want geuine refugees but the evidence so far is that many who have arrived in Europe are not in that category. 

The right to EU freedom of movement for its own member citizens does not apply to those from outside the EU.

Polish and Hungarian people just being in the UK was not a primary driver of the Brexit victory.  

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Fester

[mickkotlarski]

3 hours ago, gummy said:

So do you think the EU will survive in the long term  ? 

When nations decide that they will handle their own affairs and seek independence from the totalitarian house of Babel. It is a victory for democracy. After years of Nazi and then Soviet shackles many nations are looking to govern themselves. The EU is collapsing. Dictatorships are not sustainable.

The ASEAN countries don't interfere in each others business. Yet have a zone in which discussions can he held in mutual cooperation.

Should Poland and others such as Italy, Hungary and lately France decide to become democratic again this would be a big loss for the globalist left and its woke mongering followers.  

[Fester]

22 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Some good questions. Of course Germany and France will continue to have a huge influence in the EU. Now that the UK has left its down to two powerful states rather than three. However the veto still exists for any major changes within the EU so other nations will get their say and of course concessions. 

Will Germany miss Merkle? The whole of the EU will miss Merkle. She took no nonsense from anyone. Dont know much about the new Chancellor to be honest. But I suspect you dont get to the top of German politics unless you can be clever and ruthless. 

The European Parliament is as democratic as any other parliament. In your own regions you vote for a Member of the EU parliament to represent you. In the same way we elect MP's in the UK.

Those MEP's then horse trade and vote for who gets the top jobs. Not dissimilar to the UK where you vote for a party but it is that party which elects its own leader. That leader (if his party forms the government) then decides who gets the top jobs.

What the EU parliament does not have is an unelected house of Lords.

 

Yes, the whole of the EU will miss Merkle. She took no nonsense from anyone, especially the EU, which she directed very skillfully, with a little help from her friends!

The European Parliament cannot propose or create laws - it can only approve them, which it almost always does, as the rubber-stamping and obscenely costly showpiece of faux EU democracy.

The top jobs in the EU generally go to politicians (often with dubious records of success) from various European countries, like Ursula von der Leyen and Neil Kinnock, neither of whom were ever MEP's. So very dissimilar to the UK.

What the EU parliament does not have is an unelected house of Lords - but it does have secretly selected presidents and commissioners. 

 

[PBS]

3 hours ago, Fluke said:

Yes, rather typical , the "tolerant" Left, refusing to accept that others have a different opinion to them and those with a different opinion need to be attacked and silenced , because they are WRONG 

Firstly I'm not from the "tolerant left", but moderate conservatism from an Australian perspective. You are able to hold your beliefs, however so far as I am concerned they are extremely unfortunate if you're of the view right of centre politics is the way forward for Western democracies - history is not on your side, as starkly demonstrated by  recent events.

[PBS]

3 hours ago, gummy said:

Let me just say that as I started this thread it was about whether the EU will survive or not.  Nothing to to do with garbage about Trump , Bannon or any other non European. Now if you can not grasp that then please refrain from posting deflective garbage.

Unfortunately you are again ignoring political influence by trump world, including Bannon on European politics on the right of centre. I am not posting deflective garbage I am posting facts. I can only conclude you have not even undertaken basic research, which personally I find disappointing as I had assumed you are more open minded than some on this forum. If you can be bothered to invest some time, a few starting points for you...

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-08-15/steve-bannons-movement-umbrella-group-anti-establishment-populist-parties-europe

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/trumps-theo-nationalistic-poland-speech-hints-steve-bannon-is-still-a-major-player-b9b70bd81219/

[mickkotlarski]

7 minutes ago, PBS said:

Firstly I'm not from the "tolerant left", but moderate conservatism from an Australian perspective. You are able to hold your beliefs, however so far as I am concerned they are extremely unfortunate if you're of the view right of centre politics is the way forward for Western democracies - history is not on your side, as starkly demonstrated by  recent events.

Like yourself I'm Aussie and was raised during a time when the Vietnam war was just over. As a  left of center supporter  I would agree with your comment. History is not on the side of conservatism. However as you stated it is historic. Now we are in the 21st century and the left is no longer democratic.

The left is now governed by dictatorial NGO's and oligarchs. Sad but true. 

This very topic is an example. I'm glad that the EU is crumbling. When electing the president (ie:Junger) there is only one vote on the ballot paper. This is typical of the former Soviet Union which so many Russians burned their communist cards to the point that skies around the nation turned orange.

I'm sick of free speech being branded as hate speech and drag queens beating up girls in boxing rings.

I hate the far right but at this time in history it is the far left that is taking our freedoms whilst taking our firearms, controlling the media, destroying the family and spying on our privacy. Ironically the same tactics use in Nazi Germany and Austria.

Fluke is NOT wrong.

[PBS]

9 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

I hate the far right but at this time in history it is the far left that is taking our freedoms whilst taking our firearms, controlling the media, destroying the family and spying on our privacy. Ironically the same tactics use in Nazi Germany and Austria.

Got any factual evidence i.e. enacted law as opposed to opinion?

[JohninDublin]

9 hours ago, AussieBob said:

 When it got to the point where British fisherman were banned from fishing in their own waters, but fishermen from other countries could....

Oh yes? Link please. 

The reality is that for years British Trawlermen were selling their licences to the French and Spaniards so that the foreigners could take advantage of UK quotas. There is absolutely nothing to stop that scenario being repeated. Meanwhile, UK fishermen are feeling aggrieved at the obstructionism indulged in by the French when they try to land their catches at French seaports. The reality is that they get better prices for their fish in France that they do in the UK, and that if they ended up being restricted to sell their fish to UK ports, the oversupply would crash prices so much, that many trawlermen would go out of business. 

For all the rubbish talked about the UK fishing industry, the truth is that UK fishermen have an excess of fish if they keep it all to themselves, and desperately need access to EU markets to survive. They want the benefits but they don't want to pay the price. And for those who think that Fishing is so vital to the UK economy, they should be aware that it represents 0.1% of GDP.

[JohninDublin]

6 hours ago, PBS said:

Poland has been gradually moving to an authoritarian government for a while. The article is an an example of the BS baffles brains propaganda emanating from the right of centre. The  anti democratic ideology which picked up speed during trump's incumbency and pushed by the likes of Bannon and others in Europe is a direct threat to stability in Europe. Hopefully saner minds gain the ascendency in the political dialogue to guide European politics in a more positive direction for future generations.

I have a married Polish couple as friends. They are both Uni Lecturers in Gdansk. Around about 2005 when the Kaczynski twins were at the helm, they, along with all academics were required to sign declarations saying that when Poland was part of the Warsaw pact, they did nothing to co-operate with Moscow. I have no knowledge of whether they did or didn't, but they along with most other Polish Academics refused to sign. The attitude of Academia at that time was that (a) the question was too open and lacked clarity, and (b), that if there was any such co-operation, it was "of it's time". I'd like to point out at this stage, the experience of Channel Islanders during WWII. Those Germans in charge of the occupation said that they did not need too much in the way of specialist intelligence officers. There were plenty of CI inhabitants who were only too happy to stick anonymous tips in the post about who had a radio etc, often for the purpose of settling a grudge.. That's what happens in occupied countries.

The Academics questioned why they were being singled out, but not the Police or the Military, who would be in a far better position to aid Moscow. In fact it is well known that a RC priest, Jerzy Popiewuszko, was tortured and  murdered by Polish Police because he was a loud critic of Russian control over his country. It was also pointed out that among the first things the Russians did, was to murder the officer corps and many intellectuals in order to reduce the possibility of a future uprising against them

Because of the solidarity in Academia, the Kaczynski twins abandoned their policy. However even after one of them was killed in an air crash, this did not prevent the other indulging in Soviet/Nazi tactics such as the closure or censorship of some media, or the sacking of those members of the judiciary who failed to give the gov favourable decisions. This happened starting in 2005, just after Poland joined the EU. If they had behaved like this a year earlier, they would never have been admitted.

Currently, the Polish gov is often expressing outrage at the fact that EU law over-rides National law. For those of you who hold sympathy with this view, you might want to think about the fact that the EU is effectively a members only club. Also that these laws are mainly about how you conduct yourself towards the other members. You join the club and you have to abide by the rules. Once you join any org, you have to give up some rights for that membership. The answer is really quite simple. You either get the club to change it's rules, or you leave, or you comply. The Poles and the Hungarians who are also rapidly becoming authoritarian  are refusing to adopt any of those options. During the meantime, the EU constitution has no provision to expel members.

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, PBS said:

Got any factual evidence i.e. enacted law as opposed to opinion?

Absolutely!!! Its called CNN.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

I usually find that nutjob best describes those that pull out the race card like a kiddies six-shooter.

What is a refugee and who qualifies as such? Poland and Hungary only want geuine refugees but the evidence so far is that many who have arrived in Europe are not in that category. 

The right to EU freedom of movement for its own member citizens does not apply to those from outside the EU.

Polish and Hungarian people just being in the UK was not a primary driver of the Brexit victory.  

Thats a lengthy way of saying "I am offended by your point but you are not wrong".

What qualifies as a genuine refugee? Someone who has been processed through the screening system. Someone who then has EU citizenship.

Ah then we get to your glossing over the freedom of movement issue. It was a massive issue for Brexiteers. All that "Coming over here and taking our jobs and driving down wages" nonsense.

Turns out they were actually doing the jobs that needed done. Like truck drivers for example.

But at the same time they were also "Coming over here and living off benefits and getting free houses".

Astonishing isnt it? They were taking all the jobs AND not working.

Now Poland and Hungary do not want even genuine refugees. Thats a simple fact. But because they are being forced to by the EU they are now arguing that their domestic law has priority.

The EU should throw them out. Tell them to go see what life is like outside the EU.

The UK is currently a glowing example of how that will be. 

[JohninDublin]

7 hours ago, palooka said:

I thought that the EU would fall apart when they had the liquidity problem of the P.I.G.S., Portugal, Italy Greece and Spain some years ago.  It was suggested to me, by a corporate banker that I knew, that many of these countries cheated their way into the EU membership. Supposedly for membership you had to show so many billions of dollars or equivalent.  Apparently they all borrowed the money, showed it for membership and then repaid it, after qualifying, with huge interest.That banker retired on the commissions he made from this.

Glad the UK got out, may have short term pain but will come back stronger.

I think that post is mis-informed. There were actually five little Pigs, including Ireland. 

More to the point though, what you are referring to is not membership of the EU, but membership of the Euro.

Certain countries did "cook the books" in order to show compliance making them eligible for membership., but not Ireland. The problem was different for them in that their economy, nicknamed "The Celtic Tiger", was founded on a boom in housing prices, and to listen to the gov of the day, this was never going to end. There was a huge building boom funded by the banks, and it all came to a screeching halt when Credit Crunch reared it's ugly head.

In case you doubt my version of these events, take a look and you will see that Italy had been a member of the original EU org (ECSC) since 1952. Greece joined in 1981, and Portugal/Spain in 1986, meaning that all had been members for at least 20 years before the advent of the PIIGS

[JohninDublin]

7 hours ago, gummy said:

So do you think the EU will survive in the long term  ? 

Yes. I first went there in 1999 where the majority cars were FSO/Wartburg/Lada. By my next visit, these moving scrapheaps were less than 5% of the cars on the road with many Ford/Opel/Fiat/VW and for the wealthier, there were plenty of Mercs. Poland has done well out of EU membership as has Hungary. 

The problem for the EU is that these two bad boys cannot be ejected from the gravy train.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

Yes, the whole of the EU will miss Merkle. She took no nonsense from anyone, especially the EU, which she directed very skillfully, with a little help from her friends!

The European Parliament cannot propose or create laws - it can only approve them, which it almost always does, as the rubber-stamping and obscenely costly showpiece of faux EU democracy.

The top jobs in the EU generally go to politicians (often with dubious records of success) from various European countries, like Ursula von der Leyen and Neil Kinnock, neither of whom were ever MEP's. So very dissimilar to the UK.

What the EU parliament does not have is an unelected house of Lords - but it does have secretly selected presidents and commissioners. 

Faux EU democracy when the UK runs a first past the post election system?

Something which gives a party, which the majority did not vote for, an absolute majority in parliament.

That party then has the power to decide on its leader, screw with the election boundaries. Stuff the courts and civil service with its cronies. Threaten the media. Make appointments to the unelected house of Lords and of course get its snout in the feed trough of government contracts rewarding its financial supporters. Foreign people gaining cash for access, cash for peerages, cash for questions, the list of sleaze is endless.

The party which won is not even held accountable to the manifesto it was elected on.

UK democracy v EU parliament democracy. Dont make me laugh.

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Yes. I first went there in 1999 where the majority cars were FSO/Wartburg/Lada. By my next visit, these moving scrapheaps were less than 5% of the cars on the road with many Ford/Opel/Fiat/VW and for the wealthier, there were plenty of Mercs. Poland has done well out of EU membership as has Hungary. 

The problem for the EU is that these two bad boys cannot be ejected from the gravy train.

Actually they can be. Failure to comply with EU laws and directives is enough of a reason for the EU to do it should it wish to.

Lets face it though. Neither of those countries will even come close to wanting to leave the EU so they will eventually, quietly, just do as they are required to do.

All of this is simply a dog whistle to the right wing supporters of these "hardline nationalists". 

They are playing with fire though. Look what happened in the UK.

[JohninDublin]

7 hours ago, Fester said:

The Polish are (again) lashing back at the issue of EU law having primacy over their own national law. When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, this was already an issue (within the Treaty of Rome), which immediately involved a substantial loss of sovereignty. This fact was either deceptively hidden by Ted Heath or ignored by the voters, despite warnings of less popular politicians of the day, particularly from Powell and Shore.

EU Law has expanded since then to give Brussels power over so many important issues that more and more Europeans think should be decided at a national level. The "Common Market" (Treaty of Rome) was always much more than an economic agreement.

I am not so sure that it was hidden by Heath so much as unanticipated. The truth of the matter is that there were a lot of laws passed by the EU, but in an average year, this accounted for 12% of all new UK legislation. Importantly though 95% of these laws were voted for by the UK govs of the day with just 0.6% of all new legislation being imposed on the UK "against our will". And even doesn't tell the true story. 

Many of the laws that were opposed but still "imposed" were the result of lobbying by interest groups who were also political finance contributors. So Consolidated Widgets would lobby the gov to oppose a proposed EU law or a section within it. The gov might actually be in favour of that law being passed. CW might be regular political donors for say £50k a year. If the gov refuses to act, they will lose that donation for years to come, or even permanently. They look around the EU Chamber and calculate what are the chances of it passing? If it looks like a certainty, they vociferously announce their disapproval. They fail to stop the law being enacted. They then go back to CW and tell them "WE tried our best but we were outvoted. Is our cheque in the post"? 

But there is something else to be considered. The fact that a PM of the day does not want a certain EU law passed, does not mean that if the people were allowed to vote on it, they would concur with this. The reality is that the laws that were imposed by Brussels against the genuine will of the gov is probably about 0.25% of all UK legislation that was passed between 1973 and 2020

Just thought it might be helpful to add an example of the UK being forced to comply with EU law following a ruling from the European Court of Justice:

In the late 70's early 80's there was an outbreak of bad bacteria in UHT milk produced in France. The UK, as they were allowed to do on health grounds, banned such imports. The French complained to the the EC, and the case ended up at the ECJ. The UK lost the case, because though they had banned UHT Milk, they did not ban UHT cream  which presented exactly the same risk. The UK gov ordered that the cream undergo a second UHT treatment, as it was known that this would kill the bacteria. This could also be done to the French Milk. On the basis of this, the ECJ ruled that the UK were deliberately trying to circumvent the ban on prohibitions on free trade, and the UK lost the case.

Edited October 9, 2021 by JohninDubin
additional comment

[Convert54]

1 hour ago, mickkotlarski said:

Like yourself I'm Aussie and was raised during a time when the Vietnam war was just over. As a  left of center supporter  I would agree with your comment. History is not on the side of conservatism. However as you stated it is historic. Now we are in the 21st century and the left is no longer democratic.

The left is now governed by dictatorial NGO's and oligarchs. Sad but true. 

This very topic is an example. I'm glad that the EU is crumbling. When electing the president (ie:Junger) there is only one vote on the ballot paper. This is typical of the former Soviet Union which so many Russians burned their communist cards to the point that skies around the nation turned orange.

I'm sick of free speech being branded as hate speech and drag queens beating up girls in boxing rings.

I hate the far right but at this time in history it is the far left that is taking our freedoms whilst taking our firearms, controlling the media, destroying the family and spying on our privacy. Ironically the same tactics use in Nazi Germany and Austria.

Fluke is NOT wrong.

IMO it is the partisan allegience to the concepts of right/left stances that are so enthusiastically promoted and accepted by  what should be educated populations capable of distinguishing reality. Instead there is this bombardment of propagandist distraction designed to attract simplistic polarized appeal to the collective ignorance of social engineering undertaken by both sides. It is the turmoil of all that that involves and encompasses is the gemstone of "freedom of speech" which has become a distorted tool welcomed by the media due to the freedom that truth and lies are deemed acceptable as a factor of partisan attempts to induct. In my analysis of the methodology is the simplistic appeal to the base selfishness of  "what's in it  for me?" rather than consideration of "what's in it for You that you need me subscribe? ".

A stressed population that spends more energy physically and mentally in the mundane task of survival in the various aspects of economic realities is very susceptible to a politically presented mirage of salvation or response of threat to the illusion that current life is harmonious with suppressed expectations is very readily persuaded to defend it even unto death! So much pride and honor in enlisting in an army to go and defend the moguls?

Where the EU has started to falter is in the disappointment of failing to provide for exactly the same selfish expectations of any prior or previous political/economic system and the witnessing of advantages to a core body regardless of dictate or popular appeal.

Humanity has proven it's  capacity  only in the development of technology with which mostly it harms itself. Other than that humanity has demonstrated no significant greater or different capacity than apes.

History repeats .