Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble

[AussieBob]

26 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Agreed. A good democracy has a good opposition to challenge a particular point of view. What frustrates me, is that in recent years, good and sound policies such as environmental damage through pollution, efficiency in the use of energy, better social care for elderly and people with mental illness, better employment laws and employee engagement to help companies flourish and equal rights have all been hijacked by the left. As soon as you question any aspect of how the left want to tackle these issues you get shot down. Efficiency in energy is is a great example. The left want to achieve this through carbon tax and by handing out “free” money to insulate homes. I believe this should be achieved through better technologies and creative thinking and investment by entrepreneurs. I’m regarded as a planet killing Nazi if I dare utter those words

Yes you will be called a Nazi - and the biggest problem is not that the left does that, it is that the media yells out that abuse and the 'less intelligent' used to think that must be right.  The change that is happening because of how the media has been behaving for decades, is that social media has become the choice of platform for expression of alternative non-media views. So of course the left are now trying to shut that debate down 'no no listen to us - we know what is best for you to hear'.  A bloke got elected to become the President of USA basically on that platform - that and of course that the people realised (finally) that House of Cards was all about the Clintons, and there was no way they were going to elect Hillary. 

 

[Soidog]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Yes you will be called a Nazi - and the biggest problem is not that the left does that, it is that the media yells out that abuse and the 'less intelligent' used to think that must be right.  The change that is happening because of how the media has been behaving for decades, is that social media has become the choice of platform for expression of alternative non-media views. So of course the left are now trying to shut that debate down 'no no listen to us - we know what is best for you to hear'.  A bloke got elected to become the President of USA basically on that platform - that and of course that the people realised (finally) that House of Cards was all about the Clintons, and there was no way they were going to elect Hillary. 

Yes and then traditional media hounded him and still are just to make sure he doesn’t get elected again. 

[gummy]

Just now, AussieBob said:

Yes you will be called a Nazi - and the biggest problem is not that the left does that, it is that the media yells out that abuse and the 'less intelligent' used to think that must be right.  The change that is happening because of how the media has been behaving for decades, is that social media has become the choice of platform for expression of alternative non-media views. So of course the left are now trying to shut that debate down 'no no listen to us - we know what is best for you to hear'.  A bloke got elected to become the President of USA basically on that platform - that and of course that the people realised (finally) that House of Cards was all about the Clintons, and there was no way they were going to elect Hillary. 

What ever the reasons, to start discussing the US again is off-topic, but I acknowledge the linkage and yes social media , if it can determine the outcome of elections, needs to be stopped. However at this time the stupidity of the EU is not requiring the input of social media to make it a laughing stock as they are competent enough to do it on their own.

[AussieBob]

4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Yes and then traditional media hounded him and still are just to make sure he doesn’t get elected again. 

They could be in for a real shock - so far there has not been a better candidate show up for the GOP nomination. Better meaning more chance of winning. But after the mid-terms in 2022 will show what is really going to happen. If the GOP grabs hold of control in House and Senate, then things will get very interesting (again) is USA politics from 2023 onwards. Last time was quite a show - next time could be even bigger. Off topic I know - just a little.

[JohninDublin]

5 hours ago, 23RD said:

Exactly what I'm talking about thanks for confirming Schengen is another ludicrous idea from the EU.

Typical LIBERAL thinking the the human rights of the criminal are important but no consideration to the victims of foreign criminals.

 

Good morning. Yet again, you seem to be having comprehension problems.

I often tell people that trying to put words in my mouth does nothing for the paucity of their argument. If ever there was a poster where that particularly applied to, it has to be you. All I said was that with or without Schengen, these people would have been criminals in their own countries regardless, That being the case, it is almost impossible to quantify in a meaningful way, what if any additional harm it caused.

You mentioned trafficked women. Many of these were from E. Europe member states, so they had free movement in any case. Most of these would have been working in the sex trade with or without Schengen. Those who were non-EU, would mainly have entered legally on holiday visas. That becomes the fault of the country that admitted them. Schengen was about not about external borders, but internal borders.

Then there are the estimated 4k trafficked women in the UK. In case you are unaware, the UK is not part of Schengen, so who gets the blame for that?

Again, returning to my point that these were habitual criminals, consider that before there was Schengen, England in particular had a football hooligan problem. They did not stop being hooligans when they want abroad.

Regarding your comment that my sympathies were with criminals, again you are trying to put words in my mouth. My sympathies were with the families who were going to be broken up by these deportations. I was trying to think what your heartless comment reminded me of, then it hit me. Kids in cages at the US border. Another case of "hammers and foolboxes". Even many Conservatives in the US were appalled at this. I suspect from your comment, that you would have no problem punishing innocent children in order to teach the parents a lesson.

BTW. I am still waiting for you to send the tortoise link as well as a list of Communists working at the EU.

[AussieBob]

3 minutes ago, gummy said:

What ever the reasons, to start discussing the US again is off-topic, but I acknowledge the linkage and yes social media , if it can determine the outcome of elections, needs to be stopped. However at this time the stupidity of the EU is not requiring the input of social media to make it a laughing stock as they are competent enough to do it on their own.

Social media in EU is very much a weapon being used by those in authority to control the narrative. They recognised the dangers of social media when the UK voted yes to leaving, when most of the media outlets were saying no was the best approach. 

[23RD]

7 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Yes you will be called a Nazi - and the biggest problem is not that the left does that, it is that the media yells out that abuse and the 'less intelligent' used to think that must be right. 

Well said AussieBob have you also noticed how close the EU and Nazis goals were? A European Superstate under German control the only difference between them the EU have come a lot closer to that aim.

Now the old Stasi agent Merkel is on her way one the EU will collapse in the near future.

[JohninDublin]

4 hours ago, Fluke said:

Having kids doesn't make people exempt from any rules or laws .

Before you decide to reproduce with someone , it may be better to check their legality ?

Generally, I'd agree with you. But the UK was not precluded from punishing the spouse for any crimes actually committed, short of deportation.

But as I've already written elsewhere, even among US conservatives there was outrage at kids being caged at the US border. 

But before you decide to get into an email ping-pong with me, I will ask you the same question I asked the ghost of Joe McCarthy. What has the ECHR who made the ruling, got to do with the EU? I think until either of you can answer that, both of you are off topic.

[AussieBob]

1 minute ago, 23RD said:

Well said AussieBob have you also noticed how close the EU and Nazis goals were? A European Superstate under German control the only difference between them the EU have come a lot closer to that aim.

Now the old Stasi agent Merkel is on her way one the EU will collapse in the near future.

Thanks Mate - and yes, in is in the DNA of those Germans to want to control everything (the old Romans).

I recall a joke about how Heaven was where the British were the Police, the Italians the Designers, the French the Cooks, and the Germans made the Cars/Machinery.   Hell was where the British were the Cooks, the French made the Cars/Machinery, the Italians were the Designers (even Hell goes with that), and the Germans were the Police. 

[PBS]

7 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Well said AussieBob have you also noticed how close the EU and Nazis goals were? A European Superstate under German control the only difference between them the EU have come a lot closer to that aim.

Now the old Stasi agent Merkel is on her way one the EU will collapse in the near future.

Utter tripe. A starting point for your education...

https://europa.eu/european-union/law/decision-making/procedures_en

[23RD]

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

Good morning 

Firstly please address OP's by their correct usernames (I got my knuckles rapped for continually calling a Military impersonator Walter a few weeks ago by the mods).

 

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

I often tell people that trying to put words in my mouth does nothing for the paucity of their argument.

I'm not putting words in your mouth John I'm just quoting your own post as also noticed by other OP's that you believe in the right to family life under Article 8 of the European convention on human rights of foreign criminals an Article that most Europeans disagree with.

 

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

Again, returning to my point that these were habitual criminals, consider that before there was Schengen, England in particular had a football hooligan problem. They did not stop being hooligans when they want abroad.

Now I'm Welsh bud so no expert on England football fans but I'm sure many of the worst offenders are subject to banning orders from travelling abroad to football matches in foreign Countries if they have a serious conviction which is more draconian that the EU rules for unvetted migrants transiting through the Schengen Zone.

 

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

Regarding your comment that my sympathies were with criminals, again you are trying to put words in my mouth. My sympathies were with the families who were going to be broken up by these deportations. I was trying to think what your heartless comment reminded me of, then it hit me. Kids in cages at the US border.

A little bit off topic John but wasn't it your LIBERAL poster boy Obama that built those cages in 2014 and the current sniffer in chief has filled them to capacity. And this brings me to a point I've made to you i a previous post when LIBERALS do it its fine all in a good cause when Conservatives do the same its a travesty  with you People the famous LIBERAL saying (Do as I say not as I do).

 

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

BTW. I am still waiting for you to send the tortoise link as well as a list of Communists working at the EU.

So do you deny the foreign criminals have used underage marriages and pets as a reason to avoid deportation under Article 8 of the European convention on human rights there's 1000's of these cases where these criminals tie this appeals up in Court for years I'll start you of Somalian Yaqub Ahmed I'm sure you can use the search facility on google in your time not mine there's 1000's of examples. 

[JohninDublin]

21 minutes ago, gummy said:

What ever the reasons, to start discussing the US again is off-topic, but I acknowledge the linkage and yes social media , if it can determine the outcome of elections, needs to be stopped. However at this time the stupidity of the EU is not requiring the input of social media to make it a laughing stock as they are competent enough to do it on their own.

I might be wrong, but I thought it was the "T" word that was off-topic.

Regardless, I don't see how censoring social media will resolve the problem. My experience of many peoples knowledge of world affairs, is that they "read in The Sun and it was confirmed by my mate down the pub", who had read it in the Daily Mail".

Censoring social media, will only lead to one or both sides screaming about their rights to put poisonous posts onto the airwaves being infringed upon. The real problem as I see it, is the lack of Civics education in Schools. I'd like to see that for the last two years in school, kids take one hour a week of Civics lessons learning about current and world affairs as well as the differences between various political ideologies, and British Constitution. 

It's amazing how many people I know who bought into the lie, that the EU, when they had nothing better to do, started regulating cucumbers. The truth of the matter, is it was retailers and growers in various member states who asked their own govs to introduce these regs. The member states in turn recognised any rules they introduced were likely to not conform with their neighbours rules, so in order to introduce uniformity, they asked the EU to make the rules. As Michael Caine would say, "And not a lot of people know that".

Of course the problem with my idea about teaching Civics in schools is that there are plenty of people, and in particular, Populists, who would rather that the electorate is kept ignorant. Personally, I am genuinely concerned at the steady increase in Populism world-wide, and the harm it does. The last time we saw so much of this was in the 1930's, and we all know how that ended up. 

 

[gummy]

1 minute ago, JohninDubin said:

I might be wrong, but I thought it was the "T" word that was off-topic.

Regardless, I don't see how censoring social media will resolve the problem. My experience of many peoples knowledge of world affairs, is that they "read in The Sun and it was confirmed by my mate down the pub", who had read it in the Daily Mail".

Censoring social media, will only lead to one or both sides screaming about their rights to put poisonous posts onto the airwaves being infringed upon. The real problem as I see it, is the lack of Civics education in Schools. I'd like to see that for the last two years in school, kids take one hour a week of Civics lessons learning about current and world affairs as well as the differences between various political ideologies, and British Constitution. 

It's amazing how many people I know who bought into the lie, that the EU, when they had nothing better to do, started regulating cucumbers. The truth of the matter, is it was retailers and growers in various member states who asked their own govs to introduce these regs. The member states in turn recognised any rules they introduced were likely to not conform with their neighbours rules, so in order to introduce uniformity, they asked the EU to make the rules. As Michael Caine would say, "And not a lot of people know that".

Of course the problem with my idea about teaching Civics in schools is that there are plenty of people, and in particular, Populists, who would rather that the electorate is kept ignorant. Personally, I am genuinely concerned at the steady increase in Populism world-wide, and the harm it does. The last time we saw so much of this was in the 1930's, and we all know how that ended up. 

Wouldn't start teaching your ideals too soon though, you do realise that there is no such thing as a written British Constitution do you ?

[JohninDublin]

11 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Firstly please address OP's by their correct usernames (I got my knuckles rapped for continually calling a Military impersonator Walter a few weeks ago by the mods).

I'm not putting words in your mouth John I'm just quoting your own post as also noticed by other OP's that you believe in the right to family life under Article 8 of the European convention on human rights of foreign criminals an Article that most Europeans disagree with.

Now I'm Welsh bud so no expert on England football fans but I'm sure many of the worst offenders are subject to banning orders from travelling abroad to football matches in foreign Countries if they have a serious conviction which is more draconian that the EU rules for unvetted migrants transiting through the Schengen Zone.

A little bit off topic John but wasn't it your LIBERAL poster boy Obama that built those cages in 2014 and the current sniffer in chief has filled them to capacity. And this brings me to a point I've made to you i a previous post when LIBERALS do it its fine all in a good cause when Conservatives do the same its a travesty  with you People the famous LIBERAL saying (Do as I say not as I do).

So do you deny the foreign criminals have used underage marriages and pets as a reason to avoid deportation under Article 8 of the European convention on human rights there's 1000's of these cases where these criminals tie this appeals up in Court for years I'll start you of Somalian Yaqub Ahmed I'm sure you can use the search facility on google in your time not mine there's 1000's of examples. 

Well when you post about Commies in the EU, and fail to name any of them, it is extremely difficult to believe that I am not conversing with the ghost of McCarthy.

You are putting words in my mouth by attempting to reinterpret my posts to suit your own agenda.

Yes. Some of the hooligans may well be subject to banning orders. But that does not invalidate my point that us not being members of Schengen, did not prevent such crimes.

And again, you are putting words in my mouth and using your favourite weapon: whataboutery. It doesn't matter to me who built the cages. The use of these was wrong. However, the more recent usage was far more egregious due to the gross mismanagement of this. By the time the Federal Courts issued an injunction stopping this barbarous practice on Oct 2nd 2018, there were 2654 kids in custody. Two years later, 545 were in foster care around the US because their parents could not be found. And as the parents are banned from entering the US, they cannot assist in searching for their lost children. The cages were used by Obama as a temporary holding facility with a maximum stay of 72 hours, during which time people were either admitted or deported. Women were separated from men and children from adults  to reduce any risk of abuse, When permission to stay was granted or refused, families were re-united and dealt with accordingly. The 72 hour limit was abandoned after Obama left office. Now tell me it's OK because Obama built the cages.

And your reference to Yaqub is total nonsense. The ECHR was never involved in his case. There is no evidence that he ever owned a tortoise or had an underage bride.

So I would ask again, Links to tortoises? Names of Commies in the EU? And what has the ECHR to do with the EU?

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, gummy said:

Wouldn't start teaching your ideals too soon though, you do realise that there is no such thing as a written British Constitution do you ?

Yes. I am well aware. But you do realise that we are a Constitutional Monarchy don't you?

The fact that there is no written doc unless you include the Bill of Rights and Magna Carta, does not mean that we do not have a gov and legislature that does not have constituent parts. Then of course there are other orgs we belong to such as the Council of Europe, NATO, the UN, WTO, OECD, World Bank, IMF, as well orgs hat we do not belong to but have some impact on us such ASEAN.

BTW, did you know that there is GCSE for British Constitution. When they were called GCE's I took it as one of my options. I know it sound's like the old Smirnoff ads, but I used to think that the Master of the Rolls, was the Queen's head chauffeur until I discovered the BC.

[JohninDublin]

Well it looks like this debate is drawing to a close so I thought I would have what I hope will be my final comment on this.

I know that much of the feeling on this topic is opinion, but I have made various references to those who came to their own conclusions on this, based on hearsay and without undertaking their own due diligence. But it still goes on, especially with those who are helping to give life to the lie put out by the Hungarians and Poles, that being in the EU is the equivalent of Soviet oppression. Really? 

Notwithstanding the various differences in how the Soviets and the EU have treated both these countries that I have already mentioned, so I won't bother to repeat these now, but has anyone noticed that there is no mention of how badly the Nazis behaved. They were responsible for far more Polish deaths than the Russians were. 

The explanation for that is really quite simple. During WWII, Hungary was allied to the Nazis. You couldn't mention the Nazis, and ignore the Hungarian assistance they gave them. So for modern purposes, in the best traditions of Basil Fawlty, it is truly a case of "Don't mention the war" by the Poles.

So how involved were the Hungarians with the Nazis? Pre-war, they had 85k military. By 1944, this had grown to 1 mill.

They also had their own version of the Nazi party, "The Arrow Cross". They were extremely complicit in the persecution of the Jews and were willing helpers in the deportation of 424k of these to Auschwitz in 1944. Before that, they were murdering Jews on home soil. One particular senior member of Arrow Cross who was fixated on the "tight-fistedness" of Jews, decided to show these people how to save money before the mass deportations began. He would arrange to have hundreds marched down to the Pest river and tie them together in pairs. Then he ordered that one be shot, and then both pushed in the river. One bullet - two dead. Those tied together included women and children as well as men. This is commemorated here https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46862390

If there is one country in E. Europe that did deserve to be occupied by the Soviets, then I think Hungary deserves that status. They got themselves into that mess because of that drift towards Fascism in the 1930's, and they are heading back that way again. And when the EU calls them out on it, what do both Poland and Hungary say? "Being in the EU is like being under the Communists". 

I don't suppose that these "terribly oppressed" people had the benefits of anything like Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty when they were co-opted into the Warsaw Pact. The fact that they don't avail themselves of this tells you just how oppressed these people really are.

For those of you gullible enough to believe the complaints of Hungary and Poland about a renewal of Soviet style oppression, you need a reality check. They are facing blow-back from the EU because of the drift towards Fascism which was what led to WWII in the first place.

 

[Benroon]

On 10/12/2021 at 4:42 AM, Fluke said:

I don't know, I haven't seen that interview . 

You claimed that he was begging the Government to allow immigrants in to save his Empire and you also called me a liar when I disagreed with you  .

   It has since been shown that his Company has no job vacancies and doesn't require any workers , so your claim that he was "begging for European workers" was incorrect . 

   Brexit was all about regulating E.U workers , rather than having an open border . It wasnt about not allowing any workers into the U.K .

   You and the anti Brexit media are trying to portray this as a Brexiter who changed his mind , but that is not the situation . 

  If there are un filled work vacancies in the U.K and Europeans want to work in the U.K , yes, give them visas to work in the U.K. 

Right - so Mr Brexit is now calling for a visa system to bring back the european workers that have gone home due to the hostility they face in the UK. Now do you think that is because he has recovered his senses and is now a remainer or that he is short of staff ? Has to be one or the other

Take your time now...

(Still waiting for those silver linings stories from others .... cue tumbleweed)

 

[Chaimai]

5 hours ago, Benroon said:

Right - so Mr Brexit is now calling for a visa system to bring back the european workers that have gone home due to the hostility they face in the UK. Now do you think that is because he has recovered his senses and is now a remainer or that he is short of staff ? Has to be one or the other

Take your time now...

(Still waiting for those silver linings stories from others .... cue tumbleweed)

 

Hostility?

 

You wish to expand upon that.

 

Where I came from the Europeans (notably Polish) were well respected as hard and reliable workers. 

[Fluke]

5 hours ago, Benroon said:

Right - so Mr Brexit is now calling for a visa system to bring back the european workers that have gone home due to the hostility they face in the UK. Now do you think that is because he has recovered his senses and is now a remainer or that he is short of staff ? Has to be one or the other

Take your time now...

(Still waiting for those silver linings stories from others .... cue tumbleweed)

Europeans didn't go home because of any hostilities they face , they could still stay in the U.K just like before Brexit . 

   Prior to Brexit he wanted Europeans in the U.K to get working visas and post Brexit he wants Europeans working in the U.K to get working visas .

   Nothing changed in his viewpoint or opinion . 

Europeans needing Visas is that Brexiteers wanted, it wasnt what Remainers wanted 

   

[gummy]

Folks, as interesting as some of your comments maybe, this thread is not about European's needing visas in the UK  which not part of the EU any longer, nor is about drawing out old wounds about Brexiteers and Remainers.  It is about the EU and the potential for it to crumble. So far there has been some interesting dialogue on the matter and I for one have learned a thing a two. However if the thread has run its course and people only want to discuss deflective issues such as Brexit, visas for European's to allow them to work in the the UK, Boris Johnson etc etc  then I shall ask for the thread to be closed. So please keep to the subject matter, many thanks.

[Fluke]

26 minutes ago, gummy said:

Folks, as interesting as some of your comments maybe, this thread is not about European's needing visas in the UK  which not part of the EU any longer, nor is about drawing out old wounds about Brexiteers and Remainers.  It is about the EU and the potential for it to crumble. So far there has been some interesting dialogue on the matter and I for one have learned a thing a two. However if the thread has run its course and people only want to discuss deflective issues such as Brexit, visas for European's to allow them to work in the the UK, Boris Johnson etc etc  then I shall ask for the thread to be closed. So please keep to the subject matter, many thanks.

This thread is about Countries potentially  leaving the E.U .

Countries that have already left the E.U and how they are faring is indeed relevant . 

Why not ask for this thread to be closed then , go ahead

[gummy]

6 minutes ago, Fluke said:

This thread is about Countries potentially  leaving the E.U .

Countries that have already left the E.U and how they are faring is indeed relevant . 

Why not ask for this thread to be closed then , go ahead

Fluke, really, had a bad night ? It has nothing to do with countries who have left the EU. It is about the EU crumbling got it ? Now if you continue to deliberately be deflective on the subject matter I shall simply report you for it. 

[Fester]

25 minutes ago, gummy said:

Folks, as interesting as some of your comments maybe, this thread is not about European's needing visas in the UK  which not part of the EU any longer, nor is about drawing out old wounds about Brexiteers and Remainers.  It is about the EU and the potential for it to crumble. So far there has been some interesting dialogue on the matter and I for one have learned a thing a two. However if the thread has run its course and people only want to discuss deflective issues such as Brexit, visas for European's to allow them to work in the the UK, Boris Johnson etc etc  then I shall ask for the thread to be closed. So please keep to the subject matter, many thanks.

To the question "is the EU starting to crumble?", then Brexit is the most important indicator so far - it cannot be ignored and it is entirely relevant to your question. 

[Fluke]

10 minutes ago, Fester said:

To the question "is the EU starting to crumble?", then Brexit is the most important indicator so far - it cannot be ignored and it is entirely relevant to your question. 

Yes, there have been suggestions on a Polexit , Poland following the U.K out of the E.U 

Now, if the U.K. changed its mind about leaving the E.U and wanted to rejoin,  that would have some influence on other Countries staying/ leaving the E.U. 

[gummy]

14 minutes ago, Fester said:

To the question "is the EU starting to crumble?", then Brexit is the most important indicator so far - it cannot be ignored and it is entirely relevant to your question. 

Not in my opinion as that is the past. It is the way that countries within the EU are currently behaving that will cause the EU to crumble or not. So again if I see further deliberately deflective posts, I shall report them.