Poland - Is the EU starting to crumble

[23RD]

2 hours ago, PBS said:

Both Holland and Poland under are undergoing investigations for fraud by the ruling parties during the latest elections., they were not "free and fair elections".

Exactly my point criminals cannot carry out investigations when their guilty of the crime themselves (and I'm not a left wing lunatic).

[gummy]

Its is quite ironic that one of the main discussion points for the withdrawal agreement from the EU by the UK was on the matter of fishing rights. As has been pointed out previously the contribution that fishing now makes to the UK economy is negligible, yet it was considered vital by the UK government to defend its rights. Now apart from British fishermen getting better prices if they could sell their catches in Europe, there was always the knowledge that it was primarily French and Belgium and Dutch fishing vessels responsible for the rapid decline in North Sea fish stocks due to types of trawl and mesh sizes employed prior to and immediately after the UK joined the EU. Of course if the UK had succeeded in protecting their fishing rights on withdrawal, which they have not, then the EU countries would have had to go elsewhere to fish outside of British waters.  

I find it ironic that on the one hand they failed miserably in their negotiations with the EU on that matter "of national importance"  given  that 45 years earlier they were humiliated by little Iceland in the Cod wars because they felt it their right to fish in others waters. Now little Iceland are not stupid or forgetful and they are refusing to join the EU based on one main national issue, they will not have the EU fishing boats entering their waters as they have seen what has happened to the North Sea.

So enlargement by the EU is nothing more than colonial powers 200 years ago insofar they want others to join to enable them to plunder what is currently other peoples natural resources. Fishing was but one example. Markets for their own produced goods are another . Now Norway weren't so stupid to join the EU either because they wanted control over their own oil and gas resources.  What happens when there is nothing left for them ( EU )  to gain control over ? In my mind those last 3 words illustrates what the EU has sadly become, Strasbourg control freaks. But of course others quiet rightly will be of differing opinions.

 

[23RD]

35 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

There are plenty of examples populists getting vast mandates and then failing to deliver. It helps of course, if you are gov that is not ashamed to censor opposing media which is the case in both Hungary and Poland.

Some useful reading for you: https://www.transparency.org/en/blog/hungarys-rule-of-law-backsliding-continues-amidst-the-covid-19-crisis

And if you think that Hungary might have a case to answer, take a look at Poland: https://www.transparency.org/en/blog/corruption-thrives-as-rule-of-law-and-democratic-oversight-weaken-in-poland

Do you really think that constitutes looking after their own people?

As regards my "own native country", I think there is a massive problem with the system. How can someone get 56% of the seats, with just 42% of the vote. What do you think? BTW, I was born in London. 

But if you want to talk about Ireland specifically. The three parties that currently form the coalition, got a combined 50% plus of first preference votes. And they didn't do it by censoring or shutting down unfriendly media. 

But I'll go one step further with you. Quite apart from the fact that I have demonstrated the obvious, that a gov that can get 50% + of the votes, especially when they do not indulge in rigging the judiciary and media in their favour, are by most standards undoubtedly legitimate, what you are are indulging in with your examples, is pure whataboutery. The problem with that, is that even if the Irish gov was illegitimate, that would not legitimise the Polish and Hungarian govs, for the simple reason that two wrongs do not make a right. Or did you think otherwise?

So who's more guilty off corruption Leo Varadkar off the leaders off Poland or Hungary or are we forgetting the recent scandals off Leo Varadkar? Why are the EU not investigating Ireland as Leo Varadkar is more guilty of corruption than those leaders? The answer being Leo Varadkar is an EU shill just take a look at his Ireland 2040 plan? That brings us back to topic the EU is a failed corrupt experiment by unelected bureaucrats.

[Fester]

7 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

As I've suggested elsewhere in this thread, the original post from Palooka is clearly wrong. Italy did not cheat their way into the EU by cooking the books. Italy were founder members of the European Coal and Steel Community which later changed it's name to the EEC, then EC and eventually, the EU. When Italy joined (1952), there was not the type of financial scrutiny. 

I think that chat was about Greece?

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

Sorry but where does it say they borrowed shedloads of money to join the EU ? Everything you have posted comes under cooking the books at worst in order perhaps to fake fiscal competence, its deflection. You stated you had a corporate friend who got rich lending money to countries to join the EU - I'm telling you he didn't.

It doesn't matter - the are plenty of Greek cook books and this was one of the best sellers.

[PBS]

3 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

This threatening stance of we will take away your subsidies, we will take away your trade privileges, we will punish you for thinking differently

Both countries (Poland and Hungary) are in breach of their EU obligations for which they had years to review and iron out any disagreements. As both current governments are in breach and refuse to comply they should remove themselves from the EU. You appear to be unaware that unfortunately EU has no power to remove them unilaterally under current EU rules.

[Fester]

10 hours ago, Benroon said:

So explain what's wrong with it/discredit it/disprove it/offer something of interest - because currently you've sailed/trolled all through this thread telling people they are talking rot but not saying why - soundbites and quips ! Its a brexiteer trait.

It's just your fantastic opinion which I read as unbelievable tosh - that's all - this make-believe is standard remainer practise. Enjoy yourself.

[PBS]

3 hours ago, gummy said:

Holland as well ? I never read that. Austrian politics seems to have taken a battering as well and of course the Italian governments are stuff of legend.

LOL, meant Hungary. Austria and Italy seem to have been able to address their right wing extremist challenges

[gummy]

1 minute ago, PBS said:

LOL, meant Hungary. Austria and Italy seem to have been able to address their right wing extremist challenges

Realised who you meant. However any nation who eat chips with a type of  mayonnaise should be treated with caution 

[Fester]

7 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

Just some points to add to your post: Following the Brexit vote, an opinion poll was carried out trying to identify why people voted "leave". The most common primary reason given was to end free movement (31%).

As for racism, I've often said that the only difference between a Pole and a Black man as far as many racists were concerned, was that they didn't hate the Pole until they heard his accent. In case anyone wants to tell me that Poles are white, so hating them cannot be racist, I would point out that Poles are from the Slav ethnic race, as are most E. Europeans.

Then there are those who will deny that they are racists. There used to be a time when you could call a racist "a racist", and they would respond, "Yes, and I'm proud of it too". The more that racism was associated with knuckle scraping Neanderthals, the less willing they were to admit to this. Nowadays, it is very common to hear someone say something like, "I am not racist but...." and the next words out of their mouth would be something outrageously racist.

More bedtime stories. You really only have your slanted opinions, innit?

 

[Fester]

6 hours ago, PBS said:

FYI I am a UK citizen. Guardian journalism is well respected and has received many awards for professionalism. However, out of curiosity what media outlets do you view as credible?

People will have differing interpretations on why UK nationals voted to Leave. Personally I think Cameron completely stuffed up the referendum, should have required a reasonable majority vote to e.g. 60%, whereas getting the Leave vote by a very small percentile provided for ongoing social and political upheaval. IMO the Leave campaign was a disgrace, full of misinformation and nativist populism. Guess will have to wait another 5/10 years to see if UK deems Brexit a success for the future of UK society or not.

It is only speculative opinion whether EU will fail or succeed into the future. Obviously there are those who cheer on the possible fall of the EU. Based upon posts in this forum do they want an authoritarian government in their home countries, if so something I cannot comprehend.

The Guardian is obviously leans more leftward than most people care for.

I don't think many people actually listened to Cameron during the 2016 campaign - you can't blame him. There were shenanigans from both leave and remain campaigns.

What kind of government do you think would control a single European state?

 

[Fester]

6 hours ago, PBS said:

As both countries do not comply to EU agreements they should pull out of the EU, no more subsidies, preferential trade etc etc. Both government are complete hypocrites. In the case of Hungary the ruling party if massively corrupt and actively suppresses freedoms of speech etc and you support them??? Poland is suppressing freedom of speech and minority rights, yet you support them??? It's a pity EU cannot proactively remove them.

I agree, they should leave. No corruption in the EU though, eh? 

[Fester]

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

No one single media outlet is unbiased and totally impartial. I watch a range of news outlets from the BBC, to Al Jazeera to Euro News and if I’m really looking for a laugh, Sky. Newspapers I’ll read The Telegraph and The Mail. Both biased news reporting that I do for a little entertainment. 
 

As you say, we will have to wait 5-10 years and even then it will be hard to judge if it’s a success. How will we know how the U.K. would have faired partially  inside the EU? The U.K. was never a member of the single currency or Schengan area. One thing is for certain. The apocalyptic views given by some pro EU voters would have seen the country already in total economic collapse. I would personally liked us to have remained inside an EEC style EU. Not the Federalist EU people like von der Leyen or leaders like Macron want. 

Well said - I hope the barkers don't scold you for it.

[gummy]

1 minute ago, Fester said:

I agree, they should leave. No corruption in the EU though, eh? 

Depends upon one's understanding of the definition of corruption. I view it like this.  Putting illegal money into someone else's pocket is being thoughtful, putting illegal money into your own pocket is corrupt yet a corrupt person putting illegal money into your pocket is a nice birthday present.

[mickkotlarski]

6 minutes ago, PBS said:

Both countries (Poland and Hungary) are in breach of their EU obligations for which they had years to review and iron out any disagreements. As both current governments are in breach and refuse to comply they should remove themselves from the EU. You appear to be unaware that unfortunately EU has no power to remove them unilaterally under current EU rules.

Finally now can you understand why they want out. As stated what was once a gathering of nations for economic cooperation has turned into a political cartel. If they are in breach of EU laws when the bulk of their people are now looking for independence. Does that not tell you that people power by democratic process has given them reason to shy away from the EU.

I'm fully aware that the EU hierarchy cannot remove states. Only harass them. But more and more folk in all nations that are skeptical of the EU are having their say and the numbers are growing. Especially France, Holland and Italy. 

Like it or not but the EU has weakened and if it does not soften then game over. We may just see a league of free and independent democracies.

[Fester]

5 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

I seriously doubt that they are looking after their own people's interests. Populists generally have a poor record of working for the good of their own people because their number one project becomes holding on to the reins of power once they have hold of them.

In the case of both Hungary and Poland, they are being heavily criticised by the EU for their attacks on press freedom, judicial independence and the rule of law. How simple it is to tell most of their people that EU membership is like still being under Russian control. As I've said elsewhere on this thread, when the EU starts sending tanks into Budapest, or murdering the Polish Officer class and intelligentsia, ending voting etc,  all of which the Russians did, then I will take that claim seriously.

Come on , John...that's not exactly what you said elsewhere.

[Fester]

3 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

More over. As both nations (among a growing number) want their freedom to decide for themselves take note that great numbers are seeking independence. This threatening stance of we will take away your subsidies, we will take away your trade privileges, we will punish you for thinking differently is in itself totalitarian. Their local populace voted for and supported their own government. Freedom suppression is what you advocate because if another person has a different view then they are ....  xenophobic, racist blah blah blah and should be punished. 

What is keeping the EU together is the common currencies tentacles. Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty gives them an avenue on paper. Eventually a nation tied to the Euro dollar will break its shackles and become independent. This is when the flood gates to independence can open. It doesn't mean they have to be hostile to the EU. It just means that they can have a chance to make their own unbullied decisions.  

On the subject of which there is a nation that is right in the middle of the continent. It makes its own policies, has very liberal laws, low incarceration numbers, the right to bear firearms, universal health care and a strong economy. It has continuously chose to not become an EU member. It's called Switzerland. Relations with its neighbours are far from poor. Others see this and take note.

People are skeptical of the EU and it IS crumbling. Italy, France, Holland and well as Poland, Hungary and Czech have growing anti EU sentiment. For all the good that the EU did it is not full proof and can collapse.

Yesterday the Thaiger team shut us down and for good reason. A debate turns sour when fanaticism gets involved. In the end you will still see right winged or pro freedom supporters as wrong and pull up quotes from news sources favorable to your cause. But be aware that many on the far left are doing their own form of suppression.    

Nothing personal. In closing our debate got too heated. Even if we don't see eye to eye it doesn't have to end in hostility and I'm sorry about my last comment. Lets just agree to disagree. After all there is a word that describes our right to choose. It is called Democracy.

Mick for President!

[Fester]

34 minutes ago, PBS said:

Both countries (Poland and Hungary) are in breach of their EU obligations for which they had years to review and iron out any disagreements. As both current governments are in breach and refuse to comply they should remove themselves from the EU. You appear to be unaware that unfortunately EU has no power to remove them unilaterally under current EU rules.

Why do you think he's unaware? 

[PBS]

29 minutes ago, gummy said:

Realised who you meant. However any nation who eat chips with a type of  mayonnaise should be treated with caution 

Opposites - love Dutch / Belgian french fries with mayo

[PBS]

24 minutes ago, Fester said:

What kind of government do you think would control a single European state?

Don't believe it would ever happen

[Fester]

20 minutes ago, gummy said:

Depends upon one's understanding of the definition of corruption. I view it like this.  Putting illegal money into someone else's pocket is being thoughtful, putting illegal money into your own pocket is corrupt yet a corrupt person putting illegal money into your pocket is a nice birthday present.

I see what you mean but I don't think you saw what I meant! 

[mickkotlarski]

9 minutes ago, PBS said:

Don't believe it would ever happen

Lets hope it doesn't.

[gummy]

18 minutes ago, PBS said:

Opposites - love Dutch / Belgian french fries with mayo

Tell me you like raw herring as well ?

[mickkotlarski]

6 hours ago, 23RD said:

But both Governments had a vast mandate given to them by the majority off their voters John are they not more legitimate that for example in your own native Country where Fine Fail/Fine Gael ignored the voters mandate in the last election to form a coalition to keep Sinn Fein out of Government?

BINGO!!!

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, gummy said:

Realised who you meant. However any nation who eat chips with a type of  mayonnaise should be treated with caution 

That's Belgium.