Drawback of online learning

[Bluesofa]

Advanced warning: My second long rant in the education forum!!!

My son is studying electronics at a vocational college.

One of the subjects is English, not only to allegedly improve his general English skills, but of course all electronic terms are in English.

As he's at home supposedly learning online, today he had an online English test.

His English is appalling, For years now he's done anything to avoid learning it. In the past my wife would try to get me to speak to him in English one day a week. The result was, he'd just keep asking his mother what I was saying. He hated English. Now, he's realised almost too late he needs it.

Enough of that. Just now he was about to do this English test. He asked me to help him.

The test had some sections about grammar, filling in missing words (all multiple choice - guess at a,b,c,d,etc.)
I realised his reading has improved quite a bit, in the respect he can read the words now. He doesn't understand what the words are, but at least he can read them now.
I read the text, worked out the answer, then told him which word it was. He could pick it without me pointing to it.
There was also a reading comprehension section (impossible for him). Again I told him the correct answer which he read from the list and selected himself.

Now, as all this is done on a smartphone, it's basically a very, very, very long page you have to keep scrolling down.

When it came to the reading comprehension, there were about six or eight lines of text, followed by the many multiple choice answers.
I had to keep scrolling back up, to check things like, "What were the colour of the dog's spots", or, "Did the girl throw the ball first or was it the bone?"
Another piece of text was, about some friends going out socially. Then we had, "Who definitionally hates football?", "Is it Mike or Pete who doesn't mind bowling?"

As a native Engrish speaker I have no trouble with the questions (apart one definitely ambiguous one), it was just the time wasted by having to continually scroll up and down to check.

I think there must have been around forty question altogether, all on one extremely long page.

Right at the very end, it warned I (or rather my son!) was running out of time. To get to the end before the time was up, he just jabbed at anything for the last two questions.

The point is, who is setting these questions and the time limit? If I as a native Engrish speaker can't compete it in the time allowed, what chance do the students have?

 

[Smithydog]

4 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

The point is who is setting these questions and the time limit? If I as a native Engrish speaker can't compete it in the time allowed, what chance do the students have?

 

Feel the pain! My Thai step-daughter chose and was accepted on an International program where all the classes except Thai and Chinese are taught by foreign teachers and in English. She had been learning English at the Junior High, but as it seemed most of those classes were just for the Teacher to say a word/sentence and then the students repeat it. So she has struggled in her first 6 months, with much of that online, but there has been substantial improvement.

She had 2 sets of classes this semester for English and in one of those, the teacher had simply unrealistic time frames for the students to do exercises in class. As I could hear the whole class, as my work desk is nearby, I tried one of those exercises myself. Impossible time frame was the answer!

Another one was challenged by his accent. He pronounced "organism" as "oragainism". But he overcome that and my step-daughter has done well in that subject.

I have struggled with the amount of homework they are given. I don't know if that is because of the limited teaching time available. I work with her using the textbooks so she can have reading practice, but I notice some of the teachers don't even refer to the text book and supply a huge wad of notes from sites like https://www.savemyexams.co.uk/.

All a bit confusing, but she will get there! She will be changing one of her class selections at the start of the new term as one English subject is all about practicing to complete the IGCSE and she needs more actual English read/write & speak classes at her current level.

[Bluesofa]

4 hours ago, Smithydog said:

As I could hear the whole class, as my work desk is nearby, I tried one of those exercises myself. Impossible time frame was the answer!

This is very frustrating when you're paying over the odds for English tuition, but it appears the kids don't have the chance to converse in class to practice the new words.

[Marc26]

My stepson is at Thammasat University, majoring in Physical Therapy

But that is a field that needs a ton of physical work and I just don't think he is getting it with most of his whole 2nd/3rd year basically being online.

So I have no clue if he will be prepared to actually do the job once he graduates, with not enough "hands on" learning 

 

If he were majoring in something like accounting or finance, I could see it being seamless online, but not in a major with major actual physical component

 

[Shade_Wilder]

 

I think everyone is quite correct to be concerned/have a rant regarding the current on-line education in Thailand; the quality of it pales in comparison to a good teacher in a classroom, at whatever level.

 

Way (way!) back in the day, I was a teacher/teacher trainer and the single most important insight I ever got was this;

"Tell me and I will forget

Show me and it might stick

Involve me and I will always remember"

 

The fundamental flaw in on-line teaching is that it tends to be uni-directional; the teacher puts forth and the students receive. Yes, before anyone says it, on-line teaching programs have improved greatly in the last while, with a certain degree of interaction occurring, but it still doesn't reach the level of a good 'Give and Take' with a dedicated, good teacher. Simply put, a student needs to learn, not really to be taught. Or perhaps, a better way to state it is that a student needs to be taught to learn. In our glorious information age of the Web, pretty much any fact is available on-line, so the need to retain information isn't nearly as important today as it was even 30 years ago, but the skills to find that information, to assess it, and to utilize it have become paramount.

 

I don't have kids in a Thai school doing on-line learning because of Covid, but for those that do, you should be deeply concerned about what is happening to your child AND you need to take action. 

 

First and foremost, the Thai education system, at the best of times, sucks; there is no polite way to say it (if you have a look at the recent thread "A Synopsis of Thailand's Education System", you will see that I advocate bombing the Education Ministry into rubble).  Put the Thai Education system on-line without massive reform, and you get something that might even be doing more harm than good, except for the accreditation so prized in Asia.

 

Parents with kids in Thai schools need to supplement their kids' education at home, above and beyond the time spent in front of a computer, under the current mode. Simply put, it is unlikely that your kids are actually learning anything at all, and might actually be regressing due to the monotony and pressure to learn in an environment that is NOT conducive to learning. 

 

Have a look at what your child is studying on a daily basis, allow them to 'participate' in their on-line learning from their Thai school, then re-teach it all after school in a fun, interactive method; not doing this may well be a form of child abuse.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[Bluesofa]

9 minutes ago, Shade_Wilder said:

{snipped}
First and foremost, the Thai education system, at the best of times, sucks; there is no polite way to say it (if you have a look at the recent thread "A Synopsis of Thailand's Education System", you will see that I advocate bombing the Education Ministry into rubble).  Put the Thai Education system on-line without massive reform, and you get something that might even be doing more harm than good, except for the accreditation so prized in Asia.

 

Parents with kids in Thai schools need to supplement their kids' education at home, above and beyond the time spent in front of a computer, under the current mode. Simply put, it is unlikely that your kids are actually learning anything at all, and might actually be regressing due to the monotony and pressure to learn in an environment that is NOT conducive to learning. 

 

Have a look at what your child is studying on a daily basis, allow them to 'participate' in their on-line learning from their Thai school, then re-teach it all after school in a fun, interactive method; not doing this may well be a form of child abuse.

 

Good luck!

Thank you for your post.
As someone involved in the system you have a very common-sense approach to Thai education.
I suspect this would not be popular here, aside from your yearning to bomb the (Lack Of) Education Ministry into submission.

As an aside, in my first rant in this education forum I mentioned about my wife's four-year-old niece."We took her to be interviewed at the school. I saw they had drawings of various animals along the wall, with the English name written by an alleged teacher. 'Ploar Bear' was one."

I've just found a photo I took of another erroneous word on the same wall:

 

[Shade_Wilder]

I had a conversation with my neighbour regarding this general topic (she has a six year old) and thought it was relevant and that I might share.

The one thing that I didn't explain well in my post above was practical things that a parent can do for their school-age kids.

First and foremost, it is important to really understand the problem. School-age kids (4-21 y/o?) are hard-wired to learn and a great deal of what they learn in that time/age range will be the 'go-to' mode of thinking until they die; yes, an 'old dog can learn new tricks', but it is remarkable how many of our opinions/gut feelings are formed pre-adult. Further, the kids haven't stopped learning just because the schools aren't open and they are on-line; the question then must be asked 'exactly what are they learning now?'. Finally, what can a parent do for their kid(s)? One note of caution; many doctoral thesis' have been written on this subject and my thoughts here are a gross over-simplification.

So, what are school-age kids learning now? They are learning that learning itself isn't fun (Mai Sanook!). If you were a 6 year old, or a 9/12/16/19 year old and you were sitting in front of a computer Zoom session listening to an unqualified teacher drone on about a subject, what would you think of 'Learning'? I would think 'Learning' itself wasn't fun/useful/enjoyable. The danger is that this becomes the 'default' position; 'Learning is not fun', and if the default position is that 'Learning is not fun', then it is likely that that general idea will stay with them throughout their lives.

That is bad. Really, really bad.

Parents of school-age kids need to combat this idea, and replace it with the idea that 'Learning IS fun!'. How to do that? My first comment is that you all know your children better than I, so if you think you know a method, then you are probably correct.

I would schedule a 30-60 minute session (no longer) at the end of every school day/dinner time/after dinner and review everything  a child has learned, BUT my primary focus would be to have fun doing it. Make a game out of it; if the child does well, give them a jelly bean, run around your house as a reward (your child would try hard if the 'reward' was seeing Daddy circle the house a few times), Promise if they do well, they will get taken to the movies/water park/play ground/etc., just do something fun to associate learning with fun, not learning with boredom and ennui. Should your kid(s) learn more, that is a bonus, but the primary purpose of doing this is to associate learning with fun.

Yes, this means extra work for parents, but if you instill the idea of 'Learning is Fun' into your kids, they will almost certainly have a wonderful future. If your kid(s) associate 'Learning' with tedious Zoom sessions, then your kid will likely give it all a miss forever.

I suspect that one of the main reasons all of us came to live in Thailand in the first place was the Thais' desire for 'Sanook!'; use that idea to help your kid(s).

Good luck!

[thai3]

Woman round the corner regularly brings her online  8 year old's lessons round for me to do, in English. Pointing out it's a waste of time as he is not actually learning anything is water off a twats back  Private school was giving him good grades, goes to the Amphur for ID card and cannot even sign his name!

[Bluesofa]

27 minutes ago, thai3 said:

Woman round the corner regularly brings her online  8 year old's lessons round for me to do, in English. Pointing out it's a waste of time as he is not actually learning anything is water off a twats back  Private school was giving him good grades, goes to the Amphur for ID card and cannot even sign his name!

Yes, but the grades are important!

<For the hard-of-learning: The text above may contain traces of sarcasm>

[Marc26]

3 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

I had a conversation with my neighbour regarding this general topic (she has a six year old) and thought it was relevant and that I might share.

The one thing that I didn't explain well in my post above was practical things that a parent can do for their school-age kids.

First and foremost, it is important to really understand the problem. School-age kids (4-21 y/o?) are hard-wired to learn and a great deal of what they learn in that time/age range will be the 'go-to' mode of thinking until they die; yes, an 'old dog can learn new tricks', but it is remarkable how many of our opinions/gut feelings are formed pre-adult. Further, the kids haven't stopped learning just because the schools aren't open and they are on-line; the question then must be asked 'exactly what are they learning now?'. Finally, what can a parent do for their kid(s)? One note of caution; many doctoral thesis' have been written on this subject and my thoughts here are a gross over-simplification.

So, what are school-age kids learning now? They are learning that learning itself isn't fun (Mai Sanook!). If you were a 6 year old, or a 9/12/16/19 year old and you were sitting in front of a computer Zoom session listening to an unqualified teacher drone on about a subject, what would you think of 'Learning'? I would think 'Learning' itself wasn't fun/useful/enjoyable. The danger is that this becomes the 'default' position; 'Learning is not fun', and if the default position is that 'Learning is not fun', then it is likely that that general idea will stay with them throughout their lives.

That is bad. Really, really bad.

Parents of school-age kids need to combat this idea, and replace it with the idea that 'Learning IS fun!'. How to do that? My first comment is that you all know your children better than I, so if you think you know a method, then you are probably correct.

I would schedule a 30-60 minute session (no longer) at the end of every school day/dinner time/after dinner and review everything  a child has learned, BUT my primary focus would be to have fun doing it. Make a game out of it; if the child does well, give them a jelly bean, run around your house as a reward (your child would try hard if the 'reward' was seeing Daddy circle the house a few times), Promise if they do well, they will get taken to the movies/water park/play ground/etc., just do something fun to associate learning with fun, not learning with boredom and ennui. Should your kid(s) learn more, that is a bonus, but the primary purpose of doing this is to associate learning with fun.

Yes, this means extra work for parents, but if you instill the idea of 'Learning is Fun' into your kids, they will almost certainly have a wonderful future. If your kid(s) associate 'Learning' with tedious Zoom sessions, then your kid will likely give it all a miss forever.

I suspect that one of the main reasons all of us came to live in Thailand in the first place was the Thais' desire for 'Sanook!'; use that idea to help your kid(s).

Good luck!

What a great post!

[Vince]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:22 PM, Bluesofa said:

Advanced warning: My second long rant in the education forum!!!

My son is studying electronics at a vocational college.

One of the subjects is English, not only to allegedly improve his general English skills, but of course all electronic terms are in English.

As he's at home supposedly learning online, today he had an online English test.

His English is appalling, For years now he's done anything to avoid learning it. In the past my wife would try to get me to speak to him in English one day a week. The result was, he'd just keep asking his mother what I was saying. He hated English. Now, he's realised almost too late he needs it.

Enough of that. Just now he was about to do this English test. He asked me to help him.

The test had some sections about grammar, filling in missing words (all multiple choice - guess at a,b,c,d,etc.)
I realised his reading has improved quite a bit, in the respect he can read the words now. He doesn't understand what the words are, but at least he can read them now.
I read the text, worked out the answer, then told him which word it was. He could pick it without me pointing to it.
There was also a reading comprehension section (impossible for him). Again I told him the correct answer which he read from the list and selected himself.

Now, as all this is done on a smartphone, it's basically a very, very, very long page you have to keep scrolling down.

When it came to the reading comprehension, there were about six or eight lines of text, followed by the many multiple choice answers.
I had to keep scrolling back up, to check things like, "What were the colour of the dog's spots", or, "Did the girl throw the ball first or was it the bone?"
Another piece of text was, about some friends going out socially. Then we had, "Who definitionally hates football?", "Is it Mike or Pete who doesn't mind bowling?"

As a native Engrish speaker I have no trouble with the questions (apart one definitely ambiguous one), it was just the time wasted by having to continually scroll up and down to check.

I think there must have been around forty question altogether, all on one extremely long page.

Right at the very end, it warned I (or rather my son!) was running out of time. To get to the end before the time was up, he just jabbed at anything for the last two questions.

The point is, who is setting these questions and the time limit? If I as a native Engrish speaker can't compete it in the time allowed, what chance do the students have?

It doesn't matter if it's a curved grade.

The time limit is to prevent researching the answer or to simply standardize the test results. 

 

[Bluesofa]

2 minutes ago, Vince said:

It doesn't matter if it's a curved grade.

The time limit is to prevent researching the answer or to simply standardize the test results. 

I don't quite follow what 'a curved grade' is?

I understand a time limit to prevent researching answers, but, even as a native Engrish speaker I said that using a smartphone requires constantly scrolling up and down, wasting time.

Going back to Lo-Tech when it was a written test, I'd think there was an answer sheet to choose the multiple choice answer, along with the text to read which was a separate sheet, therefore allowing instant access to both. Even if it was all printed on one sheet, it still only took one or two seconds to look back to find the text used for the test.
What I don't know is if the time allowed has been extended to allow for the 'faffing around' on a smartphone?

[Vince]

2 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I don't quite follow what 'a curved grade' is?

I understand a time limit to prevent researching answers, but, even as a native Engrish speaker I said that using a smartphone requires constantly scrolling up and down, wasting time.

Going back to Lo-Tech when it was a written test, I'd think there was an answer sheet to choose the multiple choice answer, along with the text to read which was a separate sheet, therefore allowing instant access to both. Even if it was all printed on one sheet, it still only took one or two seconds to look back to find the text used for the test.
What I don't know is if the time allowed has been extended to allow for the 'faffing around' on a smartphone?

Ah the so called "bell curve" grade is where some group of scores are shifted based on the number of scores to produce a distribution of grades. 

If that's not confusing, let me give examples! 

I once took a class where I got very low scores out of 10 or 100 (like half or 50%). This would normally be a failing grade by itself. Turns out most of the class didn't do much better (say 60% was average score). So my "failing" 50% became a B for the course on a curve. 

The curve can work for you (bring up a low score) or work against you (bring down a high score, if everyone gets 98% and one student gets 100% they get an A and you get a C, on the curve). 

To standardize your exam, they give say 40 questions in 40 minutes. If it's all mobile phones everyone is equally penalized by format. If it can be done on a desktop and some people faff on a mobile browser, you might have hurt your score. 

Some tests penalize for wrong answers (as opposed to zero points they give negative points) to punish guessing. 

[Bluesofa]

7 minutes ago, Vince said:

Ah the so called "bell curve" grade is where some group of scores are shifted based on the number of scores to produce a distribution of grades.

OK thanks, I can follow that. However, perhaps I'm too pedantic in thinking that I should get 100% in this English test, but still couldn't finish it in the time allowed?

Is there a lack of organisational skills in the education department, shouldn't they allow more time for M&FA* on a smartphone?

I am openly very critical of the Thai education system's ability to teach anything, not only Engrish.
Only last month my wife's friend asked me about some homework for her daughter.

In the end a fluent-speaking English language teacher (a Thai/European who I know, and speaks perfect English) did it for her.
My wife initially thought it was for her friend's daughter who is studying English at Udon University. Later she discovered it was homework for her younger daughter - aged eleven.
This is the homework she was given: https://www.liveworksheets.com/5-gz26141vr 

* Monkeying & F***ing Around

[Vince]

10 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

OK thanks, I can follow that. However, perhaps I'm too pedantic in thinking that I should get 100% in this English test, but still couldn't finish it in the time allowed?

Is there a lack of organisational skills in the education department, shouldn't they allow more time for M&FA* on a smartphone?

I am openly very critical of the Thai education system's ability to teach anything, not only Engrish.
Only last month my wife's friend asked me about some homework for her daughter.

In the end a fluent-speaking English language teacher (a Thai/European who I know, and speaks perfect English) did it for her.
My wife initially thought it was for her friend's daughter who is studying English at Udon University. Later she discovered it was homework for her younger daughter - aged eleven.
This is the homework she was given: https://www.liveworksheets.com/5-gz26141vr 

* Monkeying & F***ing Around

Well, I hate to point this out but it was your son, not you who was supposed to be tested :-p 

As for more time and 100% well maybe? 

Academic English is filled with lots of . I'd score poorly on a test of grammar but I think my grammar is OK. 

More time is a)not important if everyone has the same amount of time and b) everyone uses the same format (mobile in your case). Moving around will be a part of everyone's speed penalty (unless some particularly speedy mobile user can crush you in speed!).

if some students are using a phone which is harder and slower, and some are using a full sized monitor which is easier and faster, you'd have to see if they allow both and if they want to "bonus" your score for choosing mobile.

I'd say pick a favorable format up front if possible. 

I'm not a fan of any education system personally. But that's just me :-) 

[Bluesofa]

4 minutes ago, Vince said:

Well, I hate to point this out but it was your son, not you who was supposed to be tested :-p 

As for more time and 100% well maybe? 

Academic English is filled with lots of . I'd score poorly on a test of grammar but I think my grammar is OK. 

More time is a)not important if everyone has the same amount of time and b) everyone uses the same format (mobile in your case). Moving around will be a part of everyone's speed penalty (unless some particularly speedy mobile user can crush you in speed!).

if some students are using a phone which is harder and slower, and some are using a full sized monitor which is easier and faster, you'd have to see if they allow both and if they want to "bonus" your score for choosing mobile.

I'd say pick a favorable format up front if possible. 

I'm not a fan of any education system personally. But that's just me :-) 

Yup I take your point that it was my son being tested, not me!

The questions weren't about grammar, but about reading and understanding a piece of text.
The type of questions were:
Who was Susan's friend she went shopping with?
How long did they spend in the restaurant?
What colour dress did her friend buy?  (sorry, as a Brit I just can't spell 'colour' wrong - ha ha!)

Perhaps they did some 'levelling up' of results based on the overall scores.
It was only accessible via a smartphone. Even if the smartphone had an external large-screen monitor, you'd still have to keeping scrolling up and down with it.

[Faraday]

41 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

This is the homework she was given: https://www.liveworksheets.com/5-gz26141vr

The link was dead, will you repost it....?

Quickly, none of this M&FA.....

 

[Bluesofa]

1 minute ago, Faraday said:

The link was dead, will you repost it....?

Quickly, none of this M&FA.....

Ha ha ha! Sorry, from what i remember it requires Admin to approve websites for the link to werk.
If you highlight the text and paste it into yer browser chuck, it will werk.